MovieChat Forums > Left Behind II: Tribulation Force (2002) Discussion > Is it me or does God come across as the ...

Is it me or does God come across as the bad guy?


God is good, the devil is bad - right? God allegedly tells the world to believe in him DESPITE being invisible, inaudible, and unprovable. If they dont, they burn continuously in Hell, a place that He allowed to exist.

Then he takes the goody goodies in the rapture, and if those left behind DONT give their hearts to Jesus, they will have a horrific time on earth and those in Heaven will have to just enjoy their time up there without their fathers, mothers, sons, etc.

Meanwhile, God lets the world rot via earthquakes, wars, etc, and even unleashes two fire breathing 'Witnesses' to burn alive some poor security guys who are just doing their job.

But the antichrist is trying to feed and unite the world.

I am not really saying God is a bastard - just that there cannot be a good and loving God at all, not if this is how it plays out.

God and the End Times are man-made stories, designed to scare people and control the masses. Which it most successfully has.

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Eternal hell is not biblical and neither is the rapture. These are just traditions handed down through generations.

We are to be tested on this earth age to see if we have actually will go with God or follow Satan. If someone reads the bible in it's entirety verse by verse, chapter by chapter to not lose context. they would actually see that antichrist/Satan comes before Christ. This is why Christ says he comes at an hour that most do not expect. Alot of Christians will fall away from their faith in the great apostasy because they are expecting their rapture. When it doesn't happen of course they will fall into Antichrist's hand. Anti in the original Greek means "instead of". He comes and plays savior to all the many religions and the world will be at peace. He comes in peacefully and prosperly (but it is a fake peace) He also comes as Paul says, disguised as an angel of light and in Rev looks like a lamb. This is how he is able to deceive the whole world. He wouldn't be able to deceive anyone the other way around. And common sense tells you that if there is to be a great apostasy at this time than no rapture has taken place. Because unsaved people have nothing to fall away from. Immediately after the tribulation Christ comes back. (As he teaches in Matthew 24, nothing about a rapture there) There is a lake of fire after judgment day. (there is no burning hell right now) But this is the death of the soul. Everyone at that time is in spiritual bodies. No soul burns forever. Matthew 10:28 specifically states this.

It's ironic that alot of Christians don't even know their own Bibles, yet they go on preaching, etc.

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There are no supernatural beings or afterlives. There is only the natural world.

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But then how do you explain certain instances where God is able to describe the dinosaur to Job perfectly when at the time, no one knew of any such creature? Or the fact that in Jeremiah he talks about moving the mountains (explaining why there is no true north on a compass today and so on....

The problem in many cases is alot of Christians teach that the earth is relatively young. But we all know that the earth is millions, if not billions of years old and the Bible does not dispute this. In Gen it says God created the heavens and the earth period. It goes on to say the earth was void. But translated back to the Hebrew, "was" is actually became. So the earth became void. It was not created in that way.

But, what you call nonsense rings true to many people. But to each his own.

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Job 40 describes a hippopotamus, not a dinosaur. There is a mistranslation of penis as tail. Substitute penis for tail and the hippo description is perfect. The other scientific claims mentioned previously are explained here http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/foreknowledge.html

Even if it referred to a dinosaur, there is a precedent for Egyptians (which culture was apparently the source of Job) finding prehistoric giant fossils and making legends about them. Even if dinosaurs were discovered living in modern Africa, that would not by default prove the Bible as a whole. To presume so would be to cast a false dilemma. Just about every thesis (including the Bible) has some accurate points and some inaccurate points. Christians often trumpet the Biblical references that archaeology has confirmed, but seldom discuss the ones that archaeology has contradicted:
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch.html
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch1.html
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch2.html
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch3.html
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch0.html

There is also the astounding lack in the Bible of basic information which would strengthen its claim of being divinely inspired. Richard Dawkins writes in his children's book:

Dust mites...are too small for us to see...The bacteria that live inside them...are smaller even than that. And atoms are far far smaller even than bacteria. The whole world is made of incredibly tiny things, much too small to be visible to the naked eye--and yet none of the myths or so-called holy books that some people, even now, think were given to us by an all-knowing god, mentions them at all! In fact, when you look at those myths and stories, you can see that they don't contain any of the knowledge that science has patiently worked out. They don't tell us how big or how old the universe is; they don't tell us how to treat cancer; they don't explain gravity or the internal combustion engine; they don't tell us about germs, on nuclear fusion, or electricity, or anaesthetics. In fact, unsurprisingly, the stories in holy books don't contain any more information about the world than was known to the primitive peoples who first started telling them! If these 'holy books' really were written, or dictated, or inspired, by all-knowing gods, don't you think it's odd that those gods said nothing about any of these important and useful things?

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No other animal can be described there. His nose alone can't be snared, that alone describes something much much larger. Water ox is a mistranslation but there is only one creature that can possibly be described there and I'm pretty sure a hippo's penis is not the size of a cedar tree -and you posted some links about how some Christians believe that dinosaurs and humans existed together. But the former were destroyed in the first earth age.

There's also there's some info about Adam and Eve and the beliefs by many Christians that they were the first humans but in fact they are last. God created all others and were told to replenish the earth. He then "formed" (different word altogether) Adam and Eve and it's through their bloodline that Christ would come. That's how Cain was able to find a wife in Nod. The earth was already well populated by then.

But if you're looking for the Bible to explain everything, that's up to you. The Bible is about how the savior came about, through the bloodline of Adam and who came into contact with this family, etc. It's not an actual history book or a science book. God leaves that up to us. It's not a how to guide about everything.



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The previous post twists and strains credulity with ad-hoc explanations and special pleading, and is in direct contrast to what most Christians believe. It violates common sense that an all-knowing deity would go to Rube Goldberg extremes to write his message poorly. It consumes much less mental energy to assumee that the Bible is simply a poorly-edited, mistake-filled book created by men.

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and is in direct contrast to what most Christians believe.


That's because alot of Christians would rather be spoon fed in their churches by their pastors and go about their business instead of taking the tools to translate back to the original languages. A Strong's Concordance can do wonders at times. Even one word, for example the word -was as used in Genesis 2 "The earth was without void and form" translated back is became void. Meaning there was life on the earth even before Adam and Eve. One word and it can sometimes make all the difference. And there are many other Christians that believe this but many like I said are brought up with the traditions instead of really getting into the word.

And he didn't write his message poorly. Alot can be lost in translation. The old King's James Bible used to come with a letter to explaining this.

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Why doesn't God just write a new Bible to replace the old one? Here are some possibilities people have mentioned: http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/onetrue.html

I think this is the relevant passage:

A true religion would possess holy books or teachings which apply to modern situations. While many Christians, for example, are strongly pro-life, their position finds no explicit support in scripture: although it goes into great detail about other sex-related sins, the Bible never even mentions abortion. Likewise, the churches that oppose cloning and genetic engineering cannot find scriptural support for their beliefs except by taking a few vague verses and pulling them out of context, or by making general arguments about what man was and was not supposedly meant to do. On the other side of the coin, the Bible and other holy books contain very detailed rules about issues that are no longer relevant today. The Old Testament contains specific instructions on how to buy and sell slaves, how we should slaughter animals and burn their carcasses in a way that is pleasing to God, and why empires that ceased to exist millennia ago are evil and should be overthrown. What religions' holy books discuss problems of the modern world like international terrorism, global warming or ecological destruction, much less warn us about problems we have yet to face? A religion authored by an omniscient God would never stop giving useful advice and applicable rules of morality; a religion authored by primitive, pre-scientific peoples would contain much discussion of the problems they faced and little or nothing of the problems to come, which they could not possibly have foreseen.

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You've never read the bible have you?

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I've read the Bible and found it to be a mishmash of fables, fantasy, inaccurate hypotheses, and irrelevant anecdotes. A teacher explained it better: http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/pillows.html

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You've never read the bible have you?


Do you not realise that studies have shown that atheists/agnostics are better versed in the bible than Christians?

Why do you think they became atheists/agnostics?

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People who exert mental energy trying to disprove the validity of God's word do so because they have freely chosen not to believe in Him. They would rather rely on their own limited intelligence or are under the influence of "brilliant" secular mentors who have convinced them that God either doesn't exist or that He doesn't meet their standard of "goodness" if He does exist.

2 Timothy 3:7 ....they are always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth

It's ironic that so many self-professed brain-trusts have denied themselves the greatest adventure of all: eternally exploring, learning, and experiencing EVERYTHING we humans have ever dreamed about and so much more. God is waiting anxiously to show us all these things in His perfect world. Anyone who says NO to that has the spiritual IQ of a walnut.

And the dead shall be raised incorruptible,and we shall be changed.~1 Corinthians 15:52

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That was astonishly judgemental...

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

...Good luck with that. Just because I do not accept the bible as god's word, I certainly believe in the sentiment of the the above quote and will not get sucked into a name calling exercise.

I was going to say that your response was rife in sophistry but I'm not convinced that I'd be correct in doing so;you seem to know everything about me: spending every waking hour trying to disprove god, wasting my intellect under the influence of brilliant secular mentors & having an IQ of a walnut (possible, don't know my IQ or that of a walnuts). All I know about you is that you made hypocritical statement and that could not disprove my previous statement (hence your obvious need to lash out at me) so I guess all that all os that "eternally exploring, learning, and experiencing EVERYTHING" has certainly given you an advantage over me.

I concede to your vast wealth of superior human understanding and knowledge.

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As an atheist, I just have to reply to this.

"People who exert mental energy trying to disprove the validity of God's word do so because they have freely chosen not to believe in Him"

First of all, I never "chose" to stop believing in god. I grew up in a Christian home, I was at church every time the doors were open, I went to a Christian school where the Bible was taught in some way through every subject (even our science classes tied the Bible in). I firmly believed that Christianity was the right path, the only real path... and even on the occasion I doubted, I was always able to talk myself out of that doubt. I never imagined that one day I would no longer believe, and the thought that other people weren't Christians made me sad and scared for them. To put it simply, I was a devout Christian and every one in my life knew it and would never question it. I didn't "fake it" like some people do, I didn't just trust what I was told - I believed it completely and honestly... just like you probably do now.

But somewhere along the line, I became aware of problems within Christianity. Maybe it started when I realized that my history books at my Christian school were full of lies: Christopher Columbus, for example, was not a heroic Christian man, but a man guilty of genocide. This troubled me - not because I had to relearn what I had been taught, but because one of the Ten Commandments is "thou shalt not lie". If such smart and serious Christians like my teachers and the people who wrote my history books were lying...why?

Or maybe it started when my science teacher had us have a debate about evolution and creationism. She had half the class research creationism and half the class research evolution...and then we'd come back to class the next day and argue our points. The goal was to show us how important it was for us to really know our stuff when it came to creationism and the Bible. Instead, it left me angry and confused. How was it possible that a group of students who had only just researched evolution for a few hours ever in their lives could out-argue a group of students who knew the Bible backwards and forwards and had been taught basically all there was to know about creationism their entire lives? I didn't believe in evolution then, but I was frustrated.

Eventually, it was a lot of things that made me reconsider my beliefs. My bisexual roommate in college who explained how she had known she liked girls since before she could remember. My global history class, which taught me how many dumb things happened because of Christianity, and how many times Christians had been very, very wrong throughout history. My anthropology teacher who taught me all about evolution and had me watching debates about it (I realized how silly the creationists sounded next to the mountain of evidence that supports evolution).

And eventually... it just stopped making sense. I thought and struggled with it for so long. If god is loving and good, then why do bad things happen to us? If god is all powerful, why isn't he able to let sinful people into heaven? If one of the Ten Commandments is "thou shalt not kill", then why is the Bible full of instances where god murders tons of people? Why isn't their concrete evidence to support things like the Exodus? Why do so many religions that LONG pre-date Christianity have figures who are so similar to Jesus? If Christianity is correct, doesn't that mean that Hitler would go to heaven if he believed the right thing? It was just these kind of questions all the time, and the answers I found after a lot of studying led me to the realization that Christianity didn't make sense, was cruel, and was not true at all. It wasn't immediate - I didn't immediately say "okay, I'm an atheist". I went back and forth - sometimes I felt like I was an atheist, other times I wanted to go to church. But finally, I figured myself and my beliefs out - and I am an atheist.

Second, you say that atheists have chosen not to believe. Okay, let me ask you this: when did you choose not to belief in bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster? In ghosts, in vampires, in zombies, in werewolves? You didn't. If you believe in those things, it is because you have either had some kind of experience yourself that convinced you monsters were real, or you heard about experiences other people had and that was enough for you to believe. You didn't just believe without some kind of evidence. And likewise, if you don't believe in those things, you have probably still heard all the people who say they saw bigfoot or that their house is haunted. And you don't believe them. You didn't choose whether or not you believe them, though. You heard their story and automatically said "yes" or "no". You knew, right away, how you felt about what they were saying. If they said "I saw bigfoot", you probably reasoned out all the things that could have happened instead: you know that there are bears that can stand on two legs and thus look like a bigfoot. You know that it's unlikely for a creature that large to go unnoticed. And so on and so forth. And you are probably left with one big question for the people who do believe in monsters by the end: if these things are real, where's the evidence? Because even though there are sightings and foot prints...there isn't anything concrete. It's all up for debate. And you never chose to believe or not believe...you just DID, based on what you already knew about the world.

It's the same thing. I never chose to believe in Jesus or not to believe. I can't sit here now and say "Okay, I'm choosing to believe", because no matter how often I talk about god and the Bible, no matter how often I read the Bible, go to church, et cetera... I will not believe that Christianity has it right. I can't make myself believe any more than you can make me believe. It's not a choice.

"They would rather rely on their own limited intelligence or are under the influence of "brilliant" secular mentors who have convinced them that God either doesn't exist or that He doesn't meet their standard of "goodness" if He does exist."

So you're saying that I shouldn't rely on scientists? You're saying that when I think about, say, how the world came into existence, I should not listen to the people who have spent their entire lives studying that very thing, who have done extensive research? I would understand that if none of their studies were backed up. If they were just writing papers based on what they felt or what they wanted to believe...then, yeah, I would give you this point. But it's not like that. They have evidence. A mountain of evidence when it comes to evolution. They have fossils on top of fossils. There are actually parts of our bodies now that serve literally NO purpose now, but millions of years ago served a big purpose - and that feature just never went away. Scientists have proof of this. We know that it is definitely true. In all the research and evidence found that relates to evolution, not a SINGLE PIECE of it contradicts the theory of evolution. NOT A SINGLE PIECE. That's why I trust scientists, because they have to back up their work with evidence, facts, and tests. And they DO.

And while we're on this subject, what makes you any different? Aren't you relying on a book written thousands of years ago by people with no education, who were simple and normal people, who were sometimes not even the ones who witnessed the described events? What makes that more reliable than my science books? At least if scientists are wrong, they tried to back it up with real and concrete evidence.

As for the "goodness" thing: if god is perfect, how are we flawed? If god was perfect, he couldn't create anything that wasn't perfect, right? So how are we flawed? If god is all powerful, why doesn't he just say "yeah you guys sinned, but I love you so I will let you in to heaven"? That would be real grace. But apparently he can't do that because he can't accept sin? So is it that he can't or won't? If he can't, he isn't all powerful. If he won't, he isn't very loving. I guess my thing is - if the Christian god was real and showed himself to the world in a really obvious, "Left Behind" type of way...I wouldn't deny his existence, but I would die before I would worship him.

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To me, that is proof positive God is very real. He has given us knowledge, a hunger and thirst for information, a sense of wonder. A need to find things out on our on. If God had just given us all of that wonderful knowledge, why would we bother trying to find things out? God is in the details, and those details prove God.

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Yeah, do you believe in Santa Claus too? Maybe you like the Easter Bunny

Why is it when something good happens we should all Thank God but when something bad happens its either said that its all part of his plan and he willed it(taking away free will)or its the Devil's fault.
Here's another question if God wills the negative stuff to happen than why arrest someone who does wrong, its God's will if he didn't want it to happen he would have changed things.
I have several medical issues and when I successfully get through one of them, why do people say Praise the lord or the lord is good, I did what I needed to do to get well or the DOCTORS that took care of me got me through it, GOD is the reason I even have a problem in the first place. Sorry but like any fictional story there are plot holes.
The bible was written by a bunch a crusty old men who wanted to find a way to force the world to yield to them, if Men are in charge than women have to what they said, but oh wait, the 60's come around and suddenly the bible is changed to say that men and women are equal, very convenient that when the times change they suddenly discover a misunderstanding in the ancient text.
If in todays world I went around saying I hear the voice of God and he tells me this and that I would be thrown in the mental hospital, so why can't it be that those "prophets" were also just crazy Think about it, you don't need a book to tell you how to be a good person(if you do you need some serious help)

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Christians teach the earth as being young because a Saint called James Usher took the Bible apart and figured out its timespan, and from Adam and Eve to the present day, only around 7000 years passed. Go figure.

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My blog, if you're interested; [email protected]

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Yeah that reminds me if we all come from Adam & Eve and incst is a sin how do we escape that?

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I do believe that raising such questions entirely sidesteps the actual fundamentals of faith and belies an extreme short-sightedness and not seeing the forest for the trees.

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And I believe avoiding the question just proves that the bible is just manipulated and many of those who have faith are brought into it since they were babies.
The fundamentals of faith shouldn't require you to be blind to the truth

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Let's not confuse matters with truth, but faith by it's very nature requires a level of blindness. As Thomas Aquinas said, "to those with faith, no explanation is necessary. To those without faith, no explanation is possible"

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Ok well what about the contradictions here are a few examples

1. God is all forgiving
Ok so why is there a hell, if he is all forgiving he will always forgive, there is no saying that says He is all forgiving, unless you don't kiss his ass

2. Incest is a Sin
Ok well don't we all come from Adam & Eve? Hell is't Adam & Eve brother and sister?

3. God gave us the will to choose the path of good or evil
Ok, so why is it when something good happens due to our good choices we have to thank god, isn't it OUR choice to do good? He had nothing to do with that choice. Also why is it when a person dies it was part of God's plan? Well if God can make something happened based on his will he really isn't giving that person free will he is killing them because he wants whoever

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DeclanCochran replied Aug 22, 2014
I do believe that raising such questions entirely sidesteps the actual fundamentals of faith and belies an extreme short-sightedness and not seeing the forest for the trees.

Of course you do. Ignoring all of the contradictions, impossibiliity and implausibility of most of the bible's mythology allows you to simply 'overlook' all of the evidence tending to prove it's merely a collection of stories made up by Middle Eastern desert nomads and instead continue deliluding yourself that it was telepathically dictated by a deity in space. And since 'faith' is defined as choosing to accept something as true despite any supporting evidence, then asserting faith as a positive world-view is patently absurd.

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