Rapture is Pre-wrath

We really don't even need a video to prove that. Jesus tells us he has foretold us "all things". And he does that very well in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. The disciples have asked for signs of his coming (singular) and he lays it out perfectly. There's nothing about a rapture, or even an event that hints that he comes back before the tribulation of the end times. Just the opposite and tells us not to be deceived.

And then Paul gives a second witness to this in 2nd Thes through chapter 3. Paul had to write a second letter because he knew the Thessalonians were confused by the first (1st Thes) and thought Christ's day was at hand.

And even after this, with Paul clearing things up and making it very clear that the day would "not happen" until the falling away and antichrist sitting at the throne proclaiming to be God- People today are still confused and are being deceived.

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I'm not quite as decided on this as I am on many other views.

I used to be firmly in what is called the Post-Trib camp. (Even though unlike many Post-Tribbers I've always been Premilenial, Futurist, Dispensationalist and completely against Replacement Theology.) And certainly never liked the Pre-Trib argument. What Chuck Missler explains about the uniqueness of the Church alters my perspective though, once you understand that not all saved are part of the Church then the references to believers on the Earth during the Tribulation no longer inherently contradicts the Pre-Trib view. Chuck also seems certain that is your not Pre-Tribe on the Rapture your problem is Ecclesiology not Eschatology. Well I am the same as Chuck on Ecclesiology, yet I still have issues wiht the Pre-Tribe view. I'm still not sold on the Pre-Trib argument, however rather then being firmly Post-Trib I'm now leaning towards a Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath view.

First off, the Pre-Trib camp seems to consider Imminence their cornerstone argument. Verses where the Bible tells us to "Expect" Yeshua's return at any moment. Problem is the intent of those verses weren't about chronology, it's about the attitude believers should take and how we should behave. But they insist it means that the Rapture must be the absolute next thing to happen Chronologically, even though plenty of Prophecies have already been fulfilled while we've been waiting (Israel Restored, the first portion of Isaiah 19 ect.) Now it's the Gog&Magog invasion that can't possibly occur until after the Rapture, but logically before 1948 they'd have had to say the same thing about Israel being reestablished, or till 67 about them reclaiming all of Jerusalem.

When my Dad first starting teaching me how to use a gun, he told me before even letting me touch it to always treat it like it's loaded, even when I know for certain it's not. The point of that instruction to make sure I'm always very very very careful with it, with is a very smart approach to take, but it doesn't change the fact that an unloaded gun still needs to be loaded before you can actually shoot something with it.

The Bible verses that imply Imminence are to tell us to behave like he can return at any moment, to before committing any Sin think "Is that what I want to be in the middle of when Yeshua comes back?" and to motivate us to work firmly in spreading the Gospel and doing God's work by acting like we could run out of time at any time. After all, in a sense it does happen for you immediately when you die. But the fact remains there are at least Two Bible Passages that make it clear the Rapture won't occur at least until after the "Abomination of Desolation".

Before I get to those, contrary to some assumptions I do not believe the exact time of the 2nd Coming will be known once the Tribulation starts, or even after the Mid-Trib sequence of events. The 2nd Coming is not the end-point of the Tribulation like people tend to assume, The Defeat of The Beast/Battle of Armageddon is. We have a tendency to think of that as simultaneous with the 2nd coming but it's actually not, Isaiah 63 tells us he goes first to Edom/Petra to be reunited with Israel. In my view that could be days or even weeks before the final Battle.

Matthew 24's account of the Olivet Discourse first sums up the period affiliated with the 7 Seals in verses 5-8. Then it seems to deal more with the 1st half of the Tribulation until it reaches the "Abomination of Desolation" in verse 15. Then it goes on describing more End Times drama until verses 29-31 when Yeshua (And Pre-Tribbers tend to ignore this) explicitly says

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is clearly the same event described in 1 Thessalonians 4, and clearly described as AFTER a tribulation. And also in this narrative it seems to be significantly after the "Abomination of Desolation"

I will in more detail discus 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2. First off, many take the language of "By letter as from us" in verse 2 as referring to a latter falsely attributed to Paul. Maybe it is, but I think it's more likely he's referring to people misunderstanding or outright misusing what he said in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4. He certainly is referring to that exact same event when he says "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him". Now he goes on to explain in no uncertain terms.

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I put "and" in bold, because Pre-Tribbers like to insist only the first of these two things has to happen first.

The Pre-Trib camp likes to make this fit their view by insisting the "Restrainer" mentioned latter is The Holy Spirit. Even if it where, that doesn't undermine the clearly chronological implication that Paul in unambiguously saying that the Gathering Together will NOT happen till After the "Man of Sins" is revealed. Yet so many Pre-Tribbers insist the Church will never encounter that individual. That's part of the danger of the Pre-Trib view to me, The Bible gives us all those clues about his identity for a reason, the Church should using them, not just insisting "We'll never meet him anyway".

Now, let's get into this "Restrainer" verse, first of all the KJV rendering in verse 7 is.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

There could possibly be translational issues with the phrase rendered "taken out of the way" but that's incidental.

It's "He who now letteth" is who is commonly called here the "Restrainer" Restrain is what the Greek word translated "letteth" actually means. The previous verse uses the same word (Though in a different form) and the KJV translated it "Withholdeth".

Job makes clear God does restrain Satan, and many verses describe God as restraining Sin, but it's not specifically affiliated with the Holy Spirit.

I've thought about it and now I've come to view that the restrainer being removed refers to to when the Abyss is opened in Revelation 9. The word translated "he" (Strong# 846) there can also mean "it" or "thing". So the restrainer could be an object rather then a personality, like perhaps the lock keeping the Abyss sealed and the entities inside chained. The Beast is refereed to as Ascending "out of the Bottomless Pit", I believe Apollyon/Abbadon is the entity that will indwell in The Beast. Note, the word translated "perdition" in "Son of Predition" is Apolyea, a Greek related to Apollyon, Apollyon is just the proper noun form. He is being restrained because he's in the Abyss, the removal of that restraint is what happens when the 5th trumpet is sounded.

So to me, all these passages are insurmountable obstacles for the Pre-Trib view. But I am very open to Mid-Trib, possibly with the Rapture occurring in Revelation 14.

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And the bottom line is that Christians are not made for God's wrath. He spares us by taking us up in the rapture before the tribulation period begins. I appreciate this conversation about the tribulation, but I would suggest that some go back and study the Word a bit more closely.

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