These are both good posts, and as a male who has reached a certain age (which is none of your beeswax - and that should tell you right there) I have a few points which might add to your conversation (if either of you is still monitoring this thread).
Younger men are usually driven to seek sex early believing that it is the only way they know how to communicate their feelings. They know that there is a specific dance they are supposed to do, and they try to accomplish it as quickly as possible. Partly this is instinct, males are supposed to do only one thing - impregnate the female as quickly and as often as possible after which their duties are to fend for the group. They are not programmed to do more than the most cursory of courtship moves because there was no time in early human groups, getting food and protecting the group was a full-time gig.
But civilization - in particular Western, and religious civilization - has forced males and females out of their instinctual patterns and into a different, longer, much more complex courtship ritual. But deep inside the male - especially - the old instinct holds firm and creates a mandate for sex. Yet it is also the male who has created - deliberately - the "waiting period" before sexual consummation. The word, consummation - is deliberate, and it carries with it civilized society's purpose: to form bonds that will last by making the sexual act the final thing on the menu; all the other business between the families and communities must take place first until finally then, and only then, is the marriage consummated, celebrated, and sanctioned. Consummate means "complete". Consummation is completion, and as a stand-in for the word sex, it tells us in which order things are supposed to go...now that we no longer live in caves.
Today we have a society in rebellion against these social structures and their codes and constructs. We said, "down with rules, our bodies are our own," etc. So today young women such as yourselves have to fend for yourselves in a very complicated world where it is up to you alone what you do or don't do. You must decide all of it. So you experiment, you try and find a way to "tell" whether or not a man is "the one". Sex has become a mystical tool, like a water witch: which way is the water, which way is the better life? We start relying on sex to tell us about our feelings. We have no guides (though we used to), or if we do we don't trust them to know (whose mother knows anything, right?) what is best for us. That has become - against 10,000 years of knowledge and wisdom in human social behavior - the way to tell about a guy or a girl: how are they in bed? When should we have sex, early or later? How can I - and here is a big one, I think - how can I avoid getting hurt? Guess what? All we are doing is re-inventing the wheel.
The big flaw in this is using sex as a sort of water witch. While sex is certainly the single most powerful physical and emotional experience in a young person's life, as we age we see other indicators, other things which are more meaningful and which are much better indicators of someone's real intentions, real abilities, real opportunities of fulfillment. Sex becomes just one thing on a list of things. Really, ask yourselves, what is important besides sex? So many things. The argument then becomes (since we are re-inventing the wheel here), can I know - from the sex - if these other things will come in time? Can sex forecast compatibility and enjoyment in other areas? If we don't have good sex, what does that mean for future interaction with this person?
I see this as another part of the problem (the other being how not to get hurt, the answer to which is: you will get hurt. We don't get through life and love hurt-free. Sex is powerful and the pain from it is also powerful: handle with care). Making sex the main indicator means seeing everything - you, me, everything - through a sexual prism. It is on our minds more than it really needs to be. We have turned our broader, more reliable abilities to ascertain what is best for us over to sex. If it is the first thing on the menu, we can't help but see the other person's activities in that light. On the other hand, if we wait and get to know someone we worry - what if the sex is no good?
So...here is my suggestion (at last! I thought he'd never finish!):
Do not have sex on the first date (I have to confess something to you right now: the woman I eventually married and was with for over 17 years wanted sex almost immediately; I had to slow her down because she intimidated me. So I am not saying I didn't do that myself. We were able to hold off a "perfect storm" of desire: we had sex on the second date). Let the desire build. Just talk. Can the two of you talk a long time, say a few hours? Do you like to talk? If you are a person who likes conversation you had better find that out before the sex unless sex is all you want from this guy. Does he have a sense of humor? You do want to know that, right? All of that can be learned in a few hours on the first date. If you don't care about talk, if you don't care about humor, etc. then, by all means, if all you want is sex, jump his bones immediately (most of the ones that started out that way for me ended in about 3 weeks, on average). That's all I've learned in half a century on this ball of dirt: don't *beep* on the first date. How hard is that? And if the guy can't do it, do you want to be with him? Or is he out the door the minute it's over? Every guy can wait. Every one. And you have to learn to do that too. I promise you that, while it's not much of a rule, it could save you from 50% of the pain you are going to suffer one way or another in your lives from sex and its closest relative: love. And if you like affection and intimacy? Ah, hell. That's a whole complete other thing and I don't have the energy to go into it.
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vanillainflux
17 years ago
i'm aware that my post may have come across as someone who is advocating one-night -stands and jumping into the sack, so to speak, the very instant you meet someone you are remotely attracted to, but this was not my intention.
although i am not against this sort of ... behaviour, i don't indulge in it myself.
we've heard countless stories of people meeting a perfectly normal seeming person, going to bed with them, and being hit/raped etc, so of course it is completely advisable that you at least know something about the person before you go off with a complete stranger. that being said, this usually doesn't happen when the person you meet is connected to your social circle somehow.
what i was trying to say in my post is, interesting dialogues does not automatically mean things will lead to fantastic sex and a long lasting relationship. personally i have experienced meeting someone i am really interested in, and finally, when it came down to sex, felt nothing at all, because we were not suited for each other. a line from 40 year old virgin pops into my mind "it will be great because we love each other" .. sure it's a cute way to think, but not what actually happens in real life. love does not equate mindblowing sex (especially for a woman).
that is why i'm personally inclined to encourage sex so as to not get any disappointments later on. this of course does not mean, meet someone, do it.
and i completely agree that a man who can't wait 1 date to get some, is not worth seeing again.
i just feel sad when i see my female friends around me, get hurt when, after having had 5-10 dates with a man they really liked, and really felt they had a connection with (with deep conversations over coffee about..reincarnation <note my sarcasm> ) slept with the man, and bam he disappeared after that.
it's as you said, you can't avoid getting hurt, if you're ..destined let's say, to get hurt. all you can do is not get too serious over someone you barely know, and always keep realistic.
it's a dirty world Reich, say what you want
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Kalamata
17 years ago
Scarlet
Here is all I have found in my rather long life: no one ever truly knows anyone else. Ever. It's all a big gamble. You can spend forever with someone and then suddenly, they're gone. It happens more than you might suspect. That is how my second marriage ended. We were close, very loving towards one another and not afraid to show it. The sex was intense at the beginning (we had it on the second date and then every day for weeks thereafter), and it was good for at least the first ten years (hence my caveat), and we were on the same page there for a long time. But 17 years in, and my wife just told me on the phone one day (I was on a trip to Australia at the time and on my way home) that she was divorcing me. It was a done deal. When we did finally talk about it - three years later (she wouldn't go to counseling or anything) - I realized that I was speaking to a stranger. Many of the things which I thought were good in our relationship were to her, painful and miserable. We did not remember things the same at all (she didn't even remember that she had said what she did in that phone call).
We are the most secret of beings, we humans, we are the only animals I know of who hide their feelings - even from ourselves. So, sex or not, first date or not, you will not know who it is that you're with even though you both are convinced that you do. You just have to trust and have faith even though you might well get crushed somewhere down the line.
Having said that, we all have to make choices and we all have to plunge in at some point because we all long for companionship and sex. So...in for a penny in for a pound as the English used to say. I maintain my Rule #1 (Scarl, I know you were not advocating it): do not have sex on the first date. It is not necessary, and you need that first date just to talk and listen (be aware if all he does is talk about himself, but also be aware if he seems almost too interested in you, too self-abnegating. That is the breed of man who steadfastly looks you in the eyes when you're talking to him being ultra-careful not to look at your breasts. This guy is playing the line of Mr. Sensitive and Mr. Understanding. He is making damn sure you don't catch him ogling you even though he is dying to do so. I had a girl tell me - this girl has one of those bodies men almost snap their necks to look at, even while while driving their cars - that she is tired of guys who don't look at her breasts. She knows it's bogus. So, she says, look at them, I know they're pretty nice and if you don't look then I know you're faking it. Then, after you've looked as long as you like, then hopefully you will not need to look at them for at least a few minutes and maybe we can talk.
Men sometimes have a problem with girls that want sex on the first date. They are at first pleasantly surprised and tell the girl how much they appreciate not "playing games" and all that. But upon reflection these guys will sometimes boogie because the girl was too "aggressive". She scared them. Men are just as complicated as women and they feel just as deeply. That I can tell you. But how each person acts in each situation is impossible to know. I don't even know how I will act in a situation until it happens.
Too many times we "Go with our gut" and end up miserable about it. Take a light view, enjoy that first date for what it is, a getting-to-know-the-person date. And if you want it to be that way for a few more dates, then do so. Even if you spend a long time with a guy and are then disappointed in the sex (don't pin everything on one night of sex. Let the guy cool out a bit, everyone needs to relax. Performance mustn't be everything right away, let other aspects of sex introduce themselves), why is it a total loss? What on earth were you expecting (I am talking to your friend now, the one who dated the guy a long time, etc.)? Have NO expectations beyond the simplest: the guy can speak your language, he isn't boot-ugly and sock-dumb, and he seems to have an unforced interest in you. You still won't ferret out the expert phonies, that is why they are experts. But, getting back to my point, there is no such thing as a total loss. You didn't waste your time. Everything we do is an experience which adds to our knowledge and understanding, primarily of ourselves but also of others, and as such gives you that much more to work with the next time.
Don't judge one guy by another, either. Try to look with fresh eyes, listen with fresh ears. And give sex a chance, just don't make it the benchmark of a relationship. Yes, you want sexual compatibility with a man. It's very important. My Rule #1 does not cancel out that very necessary component. I also need to have a woman who is sexually compatible with me and who I am today. But I need more than ever, now, to know who you are. It is paramount to try and get at least a feeling if not a direct bead, on who it is we are going to bed with.
I very recently had sex on a first date with a woman I knew only briefly, and it was not satisfactory for either of us. However, I learned a lot from that recent experience: First-date sex is still sex, it's just that it very well might ruin the chance of better sex next weekend.
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vanillainflux
17 years ago
kalamata,
in all honesty your frankness and openness does startle me a little, but is also very helpful.
i am sorry for what happened with your ex wife. this indeed proves that you can never be prepared for the shocks and turns that occur unexpectedly in your life. i find it sad that although one may think that everything is fine, that one day, you find out, your happyness was not shared by the other person. this may sound naive, but i find it difficult to completely accept the fact that you may be in love with someone who in turn does not love you back, or that, one day, stops loving you..how can true love ever dwindle and die out?
but now i'm coming across as a total romantic..a 180turn from what i usually project.
i do agree that a woman who takes sexual initiatives does scare some men. most are at first excited by it, but either, do not take her seriously in the long run (living in the mediterranean, a male-dominated society, a woman is either a virgin or a whore) or are intimidated by them, and fail to perform..well..feeling as if the bar is too high up. i know that men tend to react very badly to expectations of any sort (and women as well, but a woman isn't expected to be a porno-star in bed.)
it's late here and i'm a bit at loss for words as to what to say, but i will say thank you, you have given me food for thought as to my situation with a certain man at this present time. perhaps when my thoughts are more organised i shall return.
goodnight
it's a dirty world Reich, say what you want
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