MovieChat Forums > Amen. (2002) Discussion > Should be in every Christian's movie lib...

Should be in every Christian's movie library


I wish I had this on DVD. I rented this from Hollywood Video and it is quite thought-provoking. Being a Christian, it helped me to strengthen my faith and it also helped me to know about an actual Nazi who was anti-Holocaust.

I'm surprised that there's no graphic violence, nudity, or even a cuss word, considering that this is a secular production. I also have a B.A. in history and I do know that the Catholic Church and the Nazis had been involved in an unholy alliance just to stand up to Communism.

Kudos to Kurt Gerstein for having the guts to stand up for the Jews and the Christian-Judeo faith.

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I don't want to be bringer of controversy, nor to be labeled a flamer; but I believe that you B.A. in History is cancelled by your statement of "I do know that the Catholic Church and the Nazis had been involved in an unholy alliance just to stand up to Communism", which must be one of the most ignorant statements writen here.

You should do justice to that B.A. and do some research in th ehistory of WWII, Catholic Church and Comunism. Yeah, the Pope was wrong in that time, but he is human, isn't he?

Religious people tend to be biased about everything, history shoul dbe taught and researched by non-religious people in order to get a pure, un-biased result and not ending proving right that old statement: "Winners write history".

Sorry for the rant, but I'm studying history myself and it makes me sick when a fanatic attacks a different religion and worse, when said fanatic uses "education" to back his/her attack.


___________________________
My collection is in my bio

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Oh come now, history should be written by anyone who is interested enough to do true and real research. I tend to read books on both sides of the fence to get a well rounded perspective. Anyone who doesn't is afraid of what they might learn. I also prefer books from or about people who lived the history... biographies with time lines. After I am done I make my decision on what I believe. (Movies that are biopics or historically based are also a great addition.)

I am of the generation who grew up at the end of WWII. We learned plenty. There were leaders in the mainline German religions who turned their backs on the atrosities of the concentration camps to save their own necks. This is also true of the people who lived near the camps. Politics (secular and religious) played a big part in that war as it does in all wars. Because of the size of the Catholic Church and it's leadership, their missteps would have been more obvious but just a wrong as anyone elses. But there were those in all areas of leadership here and abroad who used their power to have their own way.

On the other hand many people put aside the comfort of their lives and did ALL they could to help those who were Jewish or religious sympathizers who were arrested and those of other life-styles to save them. A number of Catholic priests, nuns, evangelical preachers and diplomats from other countries lost their lives smuggling refugees out of Germany and surrounding countries. Many caring Christian families took hunted refugees into their homes fed, clothed and cared for them until arrangements could be made to move them to safety. Many of these people lost their families, homes and freedom because of their love for God's Chosen, the Jews...have you ever heard of the ten Boom Family of Holland? They gave all. Near the end of WWII Corrie ten Boom (now a matronly lady) left Ravensbruck Concentration Camp having lost her entire family. Max Schmelling and his wife just missed major trouble when they hid their Jewish neighbors from the Nazi's on Crystal Night. You MIGHT remember Max as the boxer who took out Joe Louis the first time in the Olympics and lost to Joe the second time in the Olympics? He ended up being forced to fight for Hitler's army. It was a hard time for Max and soldiers like him who didn't believe what they were fighting for. (I, too, am a student of history and have picked up much through reading and living it.)

Your attack was against someone for putting out an idea you didn't agree with. On the other hand the critique was put out on a movie that was enjoyed and learned from. Disagreeing is your privilege but telling Shannon he/she is a fanatic is an attack. As far as being a fanatic goes it takes one to know one. (Golly, gee whiz, I guess that makes me a fanatic as well as a Christian!)

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Thanks for coming to my defense ;)

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[deleted]

There actually is a book out now written by a rabbi called "The Myth of Hitler's Pope", in which he makes a heavily documeted (by primary sources and the testimony of Italian Jews) argument that Pius XII did all that he could to save Italian Jews, and ordered all Catholic clergy to do the same. Meanwhile, the Muslim cleric of Jerusalem did everything that he could to lead Palestinian Jews into Hitler's hands, showing that the real enemy of the Jewish people to be radical Islam, not the Catholic Church. Pius XII is reviled by the same people who urge abortion to be legal, ignoring the "Final Solution" of today's times even moreso than they say that Pius ignored the extermination of the Jewish people. Anyone who makes the argument that Pius XII did not care about the Holocaust has obviously not read his first encyclical, "Summi Pontificatus", in which he utters a schathing comdemnation of Nazism and Fascism, which was very dangerous to his own well-being. Also, Pius never met with Hitler face-to-face. On the contrary, whenever Hitler visited Rome, Pius was convieniently absent, as he would magically have a trip scheduled. Anyone who knows how the Church works knows that the Pope has trips sheduled years in advance, and these little sojourns were thrown together on a week's notice. Pius employed Jewish scholars who were thrown out of Italy's universities after Mussolini passed his Anti-Semite laws, and hid Jews in Castel Gandolfo, the pope's summer home and the current pontiff's personal property, so no one could hide there without his approval. Pius did more to help the Jews than anyone in Europe, except for then-Father Karol Wotijya, who would become Pope John Paul II. The papacy was one of the few institutions that still protected Jews as part of its mission, and the fact that Italy had the lowest percentage of its Jewish population killed should be telling.

"So Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph, becuase good is dumb." Dark Helmet

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Who wrote this book? I'd like to get my hands on it.

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[deleted]

It was written by Rabbi David G. Dalin.

"So Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph, becuase good is dumb." Dark Helmet

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The following review states more accurately and knowledgeably the "full" picture relating to "the Pope and the Nazis "debate.



This book does little to dispel any of the facts already known from other sources. It also misses the point. The legacy of the Catholic Church up and through WWII is not a proud one with respect to Jews. The Church hierarchy from Pope down to individual priests and nuns have had both saints and sinners.

The testimony of many survivors (especially in the Orthodox Jewish world which the author does not come from or know well) is that there were some who helped Jews and some who aided the Nazis. It is well known that papal nuncios, cardinals, priests and nuns in Hungary, Poland and Czechoslavakia often refused to help Jews unless they converted or not at all and some even informed on the Jews to the Nazis. In contrast, Church men and women acted far better or more often in countries like Italy and France (and the fatality rates among Jews confirms this). Several books written by Jews have honored these people and slightly more than 20,000 have been honored as righteous Gentiles at Yad V'Shem in Israel, whose task it is to remember these unique, exemplary and rare individuals (there were 200 million Christians in Europe and only 20,000 to date have been found - do the math and you will see the effect of Christian teachings appears anemic). The Jewish people can and have recognized those few who acted for good.

Post-WWII, the Church did several things that fly in the face of attempts to exonerate the Pope and Church in regards to institutional anti-semitism. It would be naive to disconnect these facts from the Holocaust. It is a matter of record that the Church interceded with the US and other nations to prevent Jews from reaching safety in the Holy Land and to establish the haven now known as the State of Israel. The work of Rabbi Eliyahu Silver, zt"l, to rescue children temporarily entrusted to nunneries and Catholic schools was actively resisted by the same Church men and women. Rabbi Silver, acting on behalf of authorized Jewish Rescue efforts, was able to rescue upwards of 5,000 children the Church refused to return to their decimated people (often having to resort to subterfuge). It is estimated that between 5,000 and 10,000 other children were hidden and never returned to the Jewish people on specious arguements of obviously phoney conversions being real, but really intended to provide cover for these victims of the Holocaust. To this day, there has been official silence in the face of repeated calls to identify these individuals and make them known so that families could be reunited. The search for Hidden Children continues today (and you can visit their web site). It is clear that the tragedy of the Holocaust appears to have been exploited in the case of these children to do what the Church always did - try to convert Jews by fair means or foul. The steadfast non-recognition of the State of Israel (corrected in 1993) also attests to the on-going antipathy of the Church hierarchy to Jews at that time.

There are also on-going international court cases about the Vatican role in the Ustashe regime in Eastern Europe and missing Nazi gold taken from the teeth of Jews from that time. Then there is the scandal of the use of Vatican passports to allow Nazis to flee Europe as late as 1956 avoiding their due justice for their crimes against humanity.

What can be said is that Pius XII is maligned by being called "Hitler's Pope" since he did not act in collusion with the Nazis. Further, that some Jews were rescued, but evidence is that others were not when it was possible. Beyond that the Church acted in ways AFTER the war that did not indicate respect, justice or love for Jews given the scope of the tragedy known as the Holocaust. It took 20 more years before the Church could conclude (and not unanimously) that a new teaching was needed to "purify memory" in the Church leading to Vatican II and begin the still unfinished business of dismantling official anti-semitism.

It has been fairly said in several ecumenical quarters that 2,000 years of Christian anti-semitism and anti-Judaism was not the cause of the Holocaust, but was a necessary pre-condition to prepare the fertile ground within which to grow. Without that, it is likely Hitler would not have been able to rally so many people to act as they did or even refuse to act with humanity. 2,000 years of such inhumanity does not get forgotten among an embattled people today still dealing with the aftermath of the Holocaust as we continue to search for lost relatives, reconnect, and heal from the known losses. The Jewish nation has praised and will continue to praise those few who are the best of the churches. At the same time, lets not forget there were church villains as well who did considerable damage and never faced a judge and jury. Far worse were those more numerous "sons and daughters of the Church" who aided the Nazis, taking their cue from traditional Christian anti-semitism, taught by the Church (teaching of contempt). The Jewish world can and has distinguished between the heros and villains. Can the Christian world honestly do as well? Such is the burden of history for all of us.

In summary then a history of tragic imperfection and some noticeable misdeeds and missed opportunities.
My father helped run a sanatorium in Italy after the war for Holocaust survivors and helped find families for them.
Be assured there were many in the Catholic church who wer less than supportive of his and other similar efforts.

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The most effective resistance against the Nazi regime was actually a Catholic Bishop called Clemens August Graf von Galen (Also known as "The Lion of Munster" - later a Cardinal). He violently criticised Nazi policies and was jailed twice for doing so.

Also, what the film fails to mention is that although Pope Pius XII was a badass, Pope XI Pius XI responded to anti-christian Nazi policies by issuing in 1937 the encyclical "Mit Brennender Sorge" condemning the Nazi ideology of racism and totalitarianism and Nazi violations of the concordat. Copies had to be smuggled into Germany so they could be read from the pulpit.

As the extreme nature of Nazi racial anti-Semitism became obvious, and as Mussolini in the late 1930s began imitating Hitler's anti-Jewish race laws in Italy, Pius XI made his position clear, both in "Mit Brennender Sorge" and in a public address in the Vatican to Belgian pilgrims in 1938: "Mark well that in the Catholic Mass, Abraham is our Patriarch and forefather. Anti-Semitism is incompatible with the lofty thought which that fact expresses. It is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we [Christians] are all Semites." These comments were subsequently published worldwide.

If you are gonna make a history based film,at least mention all facts.

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It is extremely unfair to consider Pope Pius XII a "badass". Pius XII was a great man, he did everything he could to stop the war, protect the Church and as many Jews as possible.

The previous experiences of the Church with the Nazi regime called for prudence. After Pius XI sent the encyclical "Mit Brennender Sorge" to its bishops in Germany and Austria, Hitler responded with more violence towards the Jews and the Catholic associations.

Had Pope Pius XII been more energetic an critic to the Nazis, the more than 850,000 jews would have been doomed. The tiny State of the Vatican could do very little to avoid the terrible consequences of the war and the monstrous Nazi regime. However, the Pope did everything that was in his power to protect life and the Christian ideals.

Pointing the finger against those who were in extremely difficult situations is vile, but changing the history to discredit an honorable man and an honorable institution is even worse.

Amen is only another effort to discredit the Catholic Church and its leaders.

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[deleted]

"I also have a B.A. in history and I do know that the Catholic Church and the Nazis had been involved in an unholy alliance just to stand up to Communism."

If you're a history major, please be careful about making statements like this. It happens, I've dealt with people who know next to nothing about Catholicism (including Catholics) and act like they know everything (which is near impossible with Catholicism, because there's sooooooo much to it).

Pope Pius XII knowingly signed 850,000 false baptismal records. The rather large church underground movement hid HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Jews in convents and monasteries. Pope Pius XII had Jews hiding at his summer villa in Castel Gandolfo. Read Rabbi David Dalin's 'The Myth of Hitler's Pope: Pope Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany' or 'Hitler, the War, and the Pope' by Professor Ronald Rychlak if you're looking for history. Good history and good drama are not the same.

The main purpose of this movie, as we all know, was very clearly to promote the idea that the Church was too silent and let Hitler have his way. This myth which has unfortunately floated around began not with a historical piece but with the release of Rolf Hochhuth's stage drama, The Deputy in 1963.

Here's a really good article I found on the subject, unbiased and with MANY citations:
http://www.markriebling.com/nazipope.html

Incidentally, I'm currently majoring, and WWII is the period I love above all others. In a strange way, that I'll not go into too much the detail in explaining, it was largely studying the people who lived in WWII, like Pope John Paul II who was on his deathbed as I was being confirmed, that freed me from the cynicism that had kept me from accepting Christ.

Michael O'Brien aka Mick
http://www.myspace.com/irishlight42

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Didn't Jesus say something about casting the first stone? Cause it seems to me that as you were so busy noting the actions of the Catholics in this movie, you neglected to take note of essentially the same behavior on the part of the Christians in the movie (Protestants to be more exact, but then you're probably one of those people who does not see Catholics as Christians).

I have a BA in History too. As one learned historian to another, perhaps you should check out the various treaties signed between the Protestant faiths in Germany and the Nazis. But then you strike me as someone who avoids looking at things that put their own beliefs in a different light.

===

The quick bronw fox jumps over the lazy dog

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I'm surprised that there's no graphic violence, nudity, or even a cuss word, considering that this is a secular production.



lol i see the church is still teaching ignorance.

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[deleted]

where was the Catholic Church during all the holocausts pre and post-WW2?? You cannot blame the church. Next let's blame baptists and Muslims for not helping Jews during WW2, oops I forgot, Hitler actually allied with Muslims in north Africa.

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well the OP is right about two things:
1. The church could have done A LOT MORE to save the jews but the tangled web of politics avoided it.
2. If forced to pick one side I am sure most members of the church back then (and nowadays) would prefer a right-wing extremist regime such as the Nazi-fascist regimes in Germany, Spain or Italy, instead of a leftist regime.
If you don't believe me just research a little bit about what happened in Spain, Argentina, Chile, Brazil, etc. The church (and US government) fully supported the fascist regimes.
Now, I am not blaming catholic priests in general. Lots of them didn't follow the official line and remained neutral, even some of them fought actively against fascist dictatorships. I truly respect and admire them.

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" I do know that the Catholic Church and the Nazis had been involved in an unholy alliance just to stand up to Communism. "
That´s simply nonsense. Yes, there was the "Mit Brennenden Sorge" Papal Encyclica, not to mention, that Church was extremly worried of the openly pagan Nazi spirituality. Many christians did all they can to save Jews, Jewish children in Poland were hidden in christian orphanages. And what about people like Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty, saving Jews in Rome (great film The Scarlet and the Black with Gregory Peck!) But Church had to be extremely cautious in vocal condemnations of Nazis, because they actually held ransome all Catholics under their power. When Dutch bishops condemned the Nazi occupation od Holland, Nazis arrested all catholic baptised Dutch Jews (not the protestant ones at this time)- just to send a signal. That is, how the philosopher Dr. Edith Stein, Carmelite nun, died.
Unholy alliance was the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact in the first place, Stalin selling steel and weapons to Hitler. Nazis and Communists divided Europe between them, and thank God they didn´t stay allies!

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Shannon-32

Kol hakavod (means "respect" in Hebrew) to you.

I watched it recently.
And with difficulty.

And I'm Jewish.

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