MovieChat Forums > Amen. (2002) Discussion > Much superior to 'Schindler's List', 'Th...

Much superior to 'Schindler's List', 'The Pianist'.

posted 20 years ago by panchaud
23 replies | jump to latest

Because it does not dare to look at it from the Jewish perspective. How can a filmmaker, no matter who he is, dare to understand the most horrible tragedy in modern history? Come with his lights, cameras, actors, and say I am going to recreate hell on earth, romanticize it, entertain you. Because, yes, in the end a film is entertainment, if you cry, you cry over the spectacle of these actors trying their best to experience hell. It might serve as an educational tool for this dumb down world we live in, but it is IMHO wrong, very wrong.
This is why AMEN is so good. It shows you an incredible perspective. The one thats never explored in film. The one that matters. Why wasnt the mass murdering stopped? It s a huge finger pointed at the status quo of the time. Very impressive and moving film. 10/10

[–] agrocz 20 years ago

I agree that AMEN is an excellent film, but I cannot say I fully understand your argument for why it is better than Schindler's List or The Pianist. From what I gather you mean to say that the directors of those two films aren't in the position to describe the events, and even worse, they try romanticise them. First of all, you give no account of how Gavros manages to escape this supposed pit. Second, Roman Polanski actually lived in the ghetto of Krakow. His portrayal of Spielmann's life in the ghetto of Warsaw is semi-autobiographic.
I agree however that AMEN approaches the matter from a different direction. It doesn't push us head-first into the details of the atrocities. It let's our imagination do the work. This is what makes this film truly excellent.

[–] bombad_jedi 19 years ago

Very soon after the war Wladyslaw Szpilman wrote a book about his experiences.
The Pianist follows that book very closely.
And I don't believe that the film really is over the top with the details of the Holocaust.

We don't even see a concentration camp, or most of the worst things that happened.

[–] manocska 19 years ago

Yeah,we don't see but it's the point.It's a virtuosity of the movie, it has an effect on us without showing criminal scenes.We already know them from other movies.
And yes, it is an excellent movie.With really great portrayals.

~You know,it's dark and I'm blind and there is no black cat.
But I can imagine it.~

[–] spartak04112 18 years ago

Costa-Gavras used brilliant skill to imply without showing in AMEN. He did not have the money to have thousands of extras getting on and off trains. The visual leit-motif of a train full (doors closed) and a train empty (doors open) made the horrifying point of German business conducted like an efficient business enterprise, killing people in quantity. We do not see the people in the gas chamber, but Gerstein recoiling suddenly from the glass peephole after the SS officer physician pushes him up to it, the Zyklon B cannister rolling off the roof just previous, is more eloquent than words or a recreation; eyes that show us unspeakable horror, and WE KNOW WHAT IT IS without seeing it. The faithful Jesuit priest putting on the Star of David and going with the victims to the death camp in Poland shows this man's understanding of religion and compassion for the suffering of ALL. The Pope, as head of the Roman Catholic Church, should have shown by his example what was in the mind of Christ regarding The Final Solution (Die Endlosung). This unknown Jesuit was light years beyond the Pope in spiritual character. Once again, the director's economy of image; we do not see the Jesuit die; we see his black cassock with the yellow star picked up by a Sonderkommando, examined quizically for a moment, and then placed in a cart with other garments of the dead (terminated). The understatement in this film is cumulative during the showing and then days later after seeing it. The director gets the script without the camera directions; he must decided where to place the camera, what lenses to use, how to block scenes with actors. All the people and things are placed in each frame; technique did not call attention to itself. All the films mentioned have their merit. They are different views of the one horror that is incomprehensible, the scale and results of a demonic evil that continues (The Killing Fields, Rape Camps in Bosnia, Darfur, Rwanda, people gassed in Iraq). Costa-Gavras has a well-earned reputation for film-making. This is another eloquent example of why with a very difficult subject.

[–] philip_vanderveken 19 years ago

Euhm guys, I don't know if any of you agrees with me, but I find it quite hard to compare Schindler's List and The Pianist to Amen, because in my opinion, they deal with different subjects. Of course all three show what happened to the Jews in the concentration camps, but that's not the main purpose of Amen.

I believe this movie was created rather to make us see the dubious role of the Catholic church in this matter, while the other two showed more what the war was like for the Jews themselves.

I don't know what you think about that, but that's how I feel about it.

Greetings
Philip

--------------
I saw my whole life flash before my eyes! ...It was boring! (Chicken Run)

[–] teacher_tom516 18 years ago

Indeed it is. It's unique as it is from the perspective of 'the enemy' and contrary to many other WW2 movies the Germans were just like other people, celebrating Christmas, singing Silent Night, loving their wives and caring for their children. At the same time the film makes the world - not just the Catholic church but the German Protestant churches, the League of Nations and the Western Allies embodied in the United States - complicit by their will not to believe. Very powerful in its methodical, minimalist portrayal of evil committed not by some comic-book villain but by well dressed intelligent civilized men who rarely raise their voices. People just like us.

It's an amazing film everyone, every Christian, should see.

Tom516

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] kling02 17 years ago

This movie lacks historical accuracy,

...From 1943 to 1944, vatican diplomacy has saved hundred of thousands of jewish people in slovaquie, romania, croatia, hungary.

...On the 16th of october 1944, 4000 jews were saved in Rome by a papal threat of public protest.

...The christmas 1942 message is truncated from the most important part.
During the war, Radio Vatican is a low power transmitter, easy to scramble. His electrical power is provided by the italians. In Germany, it is strictly forbidden to listen to it, under severe penalty. Plus, this message was said in italian, and could certainly not be translated in the next day newspapers.

...After the war, the World Jewish Congress gave credit to the Vatican for its help to the jews during the war.

Just a few (recorded and documented) facts among hundreds, easy to find when one looks for them.

Pie XII hated the nazis, considering them much more dangerous than the communists.

An awful movie, outrageous for a man that was far from deserving it.

(I am an atheist)

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ribby45 8 years ago

tom516

Well said.

It's official.
Most of these posts have restored my faith in human nature (internet version) - usually some rank comments crawl out when the Shoah is discussed online.

We needed more Gersteins from 1933-45.
But it didn't pan out that way.

Anyway, this Jew thanks you from the bottom of her heart.

[–] bbomberr 16 years ago

I don't think it's more superior then those two although I think it's much overlooked and it's rating is far too low.I could feel the tension and realism in this movie much more then those other two for some reason.

[–] AMovieTheatreGoer 16 years ago

I must to see "Amen" entirely, but it's hard to me. Also the other 2 I saw with hard effort.

It's curious German actors play a nazi many more times than Italians play a fascist or a mafia man!

------------
ANGLOSASSI: gente che andava nuda a caccia di marmotte, quando noi già si accoltellava un Giulio Cesare!

[–] slateofmind 16 years ago

Superior to Schindler's List and The Pianist? A good supplement would be a better way to describe it. Amen is an outstanding film, but primarily because it was made AFTER Schindler's List. It was necessary for us to be shocked by the atrocities of the holocaust before we could examine how the institutions of the time allowed them to take place. It would have been a mistake for the filmmakers to turn Amen into another candid, shock-filled drama about the holocaust. I am glad that they approached the subject matter in a different way. However, I would not have been as intrigued by this film had I not first seen Schindler's List.

While I disagree with what the OP said regarding earlier films about the holocaust, I believe his opinion on this film to be spot on. A truly remarkable, moving, and vastly underrated picture. Highly recommended.

[–] SeisCinemaSeis 14 years ago

I can't understand either why we should exclude wonderful films such as The Pianist (IMO the best movie about holocaust ever) or Schindler's List.
Sure, the holocaust should be analized from every angle, not only from the jewish side because that won't give us the complete picture. However that doesn't mean that movies made from the jewish perspective should be ignored.
Movies like Amen., Black Book, Twin Sisters (De Tweeling), Sophie Scholl, Edelweiss Pirates, etc. Are good options to see the history from a different POV.

[–] nguyetqui 14 years ago

I'd like to suggest The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas

The supernatural is the natural not yet understood - Elbert Hubbard

[–] blahblahblah91 14 years ago

German actors portray Nazi soldiers because most of the German society is still trying to come to terms with what happened, considering it happened within 60+ years, not 100 or more.

I am trying to find this movie as I am very interested in WWII and how so many believed or were forced to believe or would be killed. Just astounding how one man did all that to so many people, Schindler's List and The Pianist were based on actual events/true story and since I haven't seen Amen but from what I understand it's purely fictional in the hopes some IS real, so it seems a shame to say Amen is better then Schindler's List or The Pianist.

Americans are simple people, but piss us off and we'll nuke your city.

Robin Williams

[–] nguyetqui 14 years ago

I wish you had done some research before posting what you wrote.

By the end of WWI, Germany was defeated & had a huge debt towards other countries. During the Great Depression, Germany was in much worse shape than any other nation. It's easy to use the Jews as a scapegoat for everything bad that happened to Germany. Therefore, it's understandable why Hitler got so many Germans to believe in what he said & wrote.

Kurt Gerstein was a real person & as an SS officer, had tried all his might to lessen the atrocity carried out by Hitler & his followers. However, he was considered a war criminal & allegedly, committed suicide because of the injustice done to him. His name was cleared in 1965. His reports about the Holocaust were used in trials against WWII war criminals

Pie XII, possibly out of remorse for not helping the Jews in WWII, asked that his tomb to be placed at the furthest coin amongst all other popes.

Schindler's List is much over-rated but The Pianist is very good. Amen is an excellent film & much more honest than S.L. ( Quentin Tarantino literally took the villain SS officer in Amen & put him in Inglourious Basterds ). I'd like to suggest For Those I Loved which is much superior than S.L. It's also based on a true story & dealt with the Holocaust in WWII.

The supernatural is the natural not yet understood - Elbert Hubbard

[–] pachyderm_infinitum 14 years ago

The OP posted this in 2004? wow ;-) I think he says that it's better than SL & TP mainly for shock value (so that people would come and read?). But not too many people have read his take on "Amen" ;-)

[–] nguyetqui 14 years ago

It's true that the 1st poster started this thread in 2004 & I did read the whole thread.

However in responding to a post dated in Nov.'09, I suggested The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas which is fictional but very fresh by offerring a different take from the perpectives of children from opposite sides. It's very powerful & astonishing. I strongly recommend it & think it's a shame it didn't even get nominated for best movie @ Oscar time while Slumdog Millionnaire got the coveted prize ( what a joke !!! ).

Then another OP sending me his/her post, saying "it's purely fictional in the hopes some IS real, so it seems a shame to say Amen is better then Schindler's List or The Pianist". That's why I wrote what I wrote in my 2nd post.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the 1st poster.

The supernatural is the natural not yet understood' ElbertHubbard.

[–] saltnurwound 9 years ago

Wow, it's 6 years later, but for anyone reading through this, along with "The Boy in the Striped Pajamas", I would add another suggestion...

A very low key movie simple titled "Good".

It stars Viggo Mortensen and Jason Isaacs and it blew me away.

If you thought this was a good film, I think you would like "Good" for many of the same reasons.

[–] barbarossa4188 11 years ago

Another piece of trash Holohoax propaganda. And, the lemmings will believe anything...................

"Stalingrad. . . The fall of Stalingrad was the end of Europe. There's been a cataclysm."

[–] saltnurwound 9 years ago

Barbarossa, do you know something we don't?

If memory serves, the Holocaust DID, in fact, happen.

But then again, it could have all been faked with CGI.

[–] maba1789 8 years ago

I agree. Amen= 9/10, Schindler´s List = 8/10