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This is an American horror movie, not British

posted 12 years ago by jtfriday2000
77 replies | jump to latest

*spoilers*

When I say American I mean U.S. and Canada. From beginning to end this movie was nothing but a rehash of American horror cliches. I could list dozens but I'll just list several:

--unsuspecting couple making out in the woods is attacked by a bloodthirsty creature (American horror cliche done to death).
--character running in fear unsuspectingly impales himself on sharp object (Bruce on tree branch). This is reminiscent of the original Rambo, where the cop is impaled by a trap set by Rambo. In fact, this entire forest scene in Dog Soldiers appears to be completely influenced by the Rambo forest scene: the setting, color, pacing, suspense, and the whole aspect of heavily armed men being taken out one by one by an unseen menace.
--people isolated in a house, trying to fight against ravenous creatures (American horror cliche popularized by the original Night of the Living Dead).
--group tries to escape by car but the car blows up (Night of the Living Dead again).
--character (Joe) finds out the last minute the creature is behind him (American horror staple).
--character drops his guard, thinking the creature has been defeated, only for him to be attacked and killed (American horror cliche memorable in Joel's death scene in Pumpkinhead).
--group finds out one of their own is infected and watch in horror as he transforms (like Palmer's transformation in the 1982 Thing).
--main character is about to die so he kills himself and the creature with an explosion (like Dr. Loomis from Halloween 2).
--instead of a final girl, there is a battered and bloody final guy who walks out of the cabin after witnessing the slaughter of his friends (like Ash from Evil Dead).

Like the Descent, this film is smothered in American horror cliches its virtually an American horror movie. Even if you had ten hands you wouldn't have enough fingers to count the cliches from American horror flicks. Change the language and the uniform and this movie could easily been set in the U.S., Canada, France, Belgium, or even Ukraine for that matter.

Why do people complain about American horror being cliched but when the Brits use the same cliches its new and innovative? Is it because the director didn't use CGI? Apparently people think he's the only horror director not to use CGI.

However, if some Brits wanna use this cheesy, heavily-American influenced flick as a source of national pride, they can do so. This movie is about as British as bottle of Coca-Cola.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] jtfriday2000 12 years ago

Magic Quest, what does your post have to do with Dog Soldiers?

[–] jtfriday2000 12 years ago

Magic Quest, I was too groggy to understand what your post was about at first, but I get it now. First off, Continental Europe and Great Britain form two separate and distinct cultures.

The Mummy is Egyptian, not European. The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Phantom of the Opera, Werewolf, and Dracula all are influenced by Continental European culture. Even the two British sources you listed are inspired by Continental Europe. Invisible Man was influenced by Ring of Gyges by Plato. Frankentstein was inspired by Italian Giovanni Aldini's experiments on the dead, as well as Prometheus, Greek mythology. Ironically, the Hammer horror films were financed by American film producers.

I'm well aware of American shortcomings as well. The zombie genre was influenced by Haitian voodoo. The slasher genre was influenced by Italian slasher movies called giallos. The western genre was given new life thanks to the spaghetti western, a genre started by Italians working in Spain. Incidentally, the first spaghetti western, Fistful of Dollars, was plagiarized scene for scene from Kurosawa's Yojimbo. That means the first spaghetti western is actually a Japanese samurai movie.

I could rant long about the shortcomings of the American and British entertainment industries.

You're assuming I'm one of those Americans who think America is the pinnacle of human civilization and everything is influenced by America. That is far from what I believe. I prefer many Hammer horror films to most modern American horror. But I feel Japanese horror is miles ahead all other countries as far as horror goes.

My thread isn't against British horror, nor is it praising American horror. My thread has two purposes:

1. To point out to all those people saying, "This movie is not for Yanks!" and "this is a British horror by Brits for Brits." that this movie is nothing but a rip-off from American horror.

2. To ask the question, why is it people moan American horror as cliched praise this movie for being new and original when in fact it's nothing but American cliches?

Personally, I feel it doesn't matter where the sources for a story come from so long as it is not plagiarized or ripped-off. Hence, one of the reasons why I didn't like this movie, nor American rip-offs like the Grudge and Quarantine.

[–] stuart-193 12 years ago

Perhaps you're not familiar with Neil Marshall's directing style - he takes off loads of other movies, usually as homage but occasionally to poke fun at them. So, yes, there are many "cliches" in all his movies.

They didn't use CGI because they couldn't afford it.

It is agreed that Brit films do tend to have a certian "cheesyness" about them - probably the low budgets, the accents and differences in humour - sometimes it doesn't work but in this case it was very sharp and well executed, though I doubt it would appeal to non Brits as its very specific humour.

I know its hard to believe, but there are over 6bn individuals who aren't from the US of A and they might have a different view on cheesy. For example, you mention a few flicks above that have cheese melting out of every frame - even though I have a soft spot for Evil Dead now, I can remember seeing it when it first came out (I was 15) and not even being remotely affected by it due to the cheesiness, poor SFX and planks of wood who made up the cast. All those slasher movies of that era were cheesy as hell but they were very low budget and alternative to mainstream but, lets face it, they were crap really ... I saw a whole heap of them and some were unwatchable.

Disagree re: Descent - not too many cliches in it ... quite original. Many take offs in Doomsday though. However, the American made Decent 2 was a total rehash full of cheese and cliches. Its not the only time American sequels/prequels have not lived up to the non American made originals - and the propensity to remake everything half decent in American English using American actors is a mysterious pastime - Let the right one in, Girl with the dragon tatoo, etc - its as if its not been made right if its not made in America ... whats that all about ?

On the subject of Sam Raimi; his last offering, whilst very enjoyable, was a total rip off of Night of the Demon which was a British picture made on the old Elstree lot by mainly British investors. Yes, there were American actors in it but it was a Brit offering at the time as were many films back then (when we actually had a film industry here)

Bottom line - there's not much room for originality in horror left. To be fair: Hollywood/Universal studios has shaped much of the genre, but in terms of Werewolves imho the best and most original is still American Werewolf In London.

In conclusion - I like this film - it is a Brit Flick though and its not influenced by American horror any more than any other horror flick is or American horror is influenced by other non American films. It is generally considered one of the best werewolf flicks out there, deservedly so, and thats largely due to a competent script, a director who is capable of working on a low budget and a strong cast.

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I don't know what it is, but its weird and pissed off!

[–] jtfriday2000 12 years ago

stuart, many filmmakers will say they are homaging or poking fun at something when in fact they are truly ripping it off. All the key elements in this movie have been done in American horror films.

I know it's hard to believe, but there are over 6 billion people not from the U.K. and they have a different idea of what cheesy is. You mentioned Evil Dead and many horror flicks of its ilk being cheesy and unwatchable. I agree with you. However, if you're talking about the 1957 Night of the Demon with Dana Andrews being produced by British investors, you are mistaken. Night of the Demon was produced by Hal E. Chester, an American producer from NYC.

I agree with you on the shortcomings of the American film industry. Like I said before, I'm not an American who wants to trump the American film industry, nor deriding or scorning the British. My post was about Dog Soldiers. You and Magic Quest are the ones who wanted to talk about the American and British film industries.

stuart, you wrote a big post but only a fraction of it was about Dog Soldiers. This movie is not a great werewolf movie. It didn't explore the psychology of a man turning into a werewolf, nor did it delve into werewolf mythology. The creatures in this movie didn't have to be werewolves. They could have been vampires or zombies. If you changed the werewolves into zombies, this could easily be seen as a rip-off of Night of the Living Dead. Where do you draw the line between "homage" and plagiarism?

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] stuart-193 12 years ago

stuart, many filmmakers will say they are homaging or poking fun at something when in fact they are truly ripping it off. All the key elements in this movie have been done in American horror films.

nope ... saw an interview with the man himself and he said he liked to blatantly take off, pay homage, rip off, poke fun at, whatever you want to call it, well known parts of other movies for his own fun. He never makes big budget movies. He wants complete control at his own pace. He makes films for his fans and doesn't care about anyone who criticises him. These are (abbrev) direct quotes. So say what you will - he doesn't care if you like his movies or not because he makes them for his own pleasure ... and they just so happen to be popular with the punters and he makes money for his investors. Lucky for him

stuart, you wrote a big post but only a fraction of it was about Dog Soldiers. This movie is not a great werewolf movie. It didn't explore the psychology of a man turning into a werewolf, nor did it delve into werewolf mythology. The creatures in this movie didn't have to be werewolves. They could have been vampires or zombies. If you changed the werewolves into zombies, this could easily be seen as a rip-off of Night of the Living Dead. Where do you draw the line between "homage" and plagiarism?

Whoa - you really didn't like it did you. Perhaps you should have gone to see another movie.

Sticking with the movie itself then - with the fans of the genre its generally considered in the top 3 movies of its kind. Thats who it was made for (quoting Neil Marshall from an interview in Total Film when the movie was made). I guess if you're not a fan of werewolf movies in particular then you are unlikely to wholly like it even if you might "appreciate" it for other reasons. I can't tell if you are or are not. Still as or the psychology etc, I don't think it was much on Kismet's mind when they conceived it. Actually, I think i remember reading somewhere that it was supposed to have all those monsters in it, but it was too complex and costly to achieve, so they kept them all as werewolves. Anyway, they just wanted a simple action flick - a good old romp - which this is. If you want psychology of being a werewolf then "freeborn" might offer that up if they can get it off the ground.

As for his other films I would say they do have the Neil Marshall stamp on them which might be off putting to those that are not keen on his style. Personally I do like his style and the "rip off" bits in some of his movies I find amusing. I like the werewolf genre, maybe a bit too much. I do forgive some of the low budget looking stuff as being just that but I don't find that these are overly cheesy when Neil Marshall is at the helm. So I suppose you could call me a NM fan and Dog Soldiers is right up my street - so I like it with all its misgivings, which IMHO are not that many if you take it as it is rather than trying to rewrite it to suit yourself

We all can't like everything

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I don't know what it is, but its weird and pissed off!

[–] jtfriday2000 12 years ago

nope ... saw an interview with the man himself and he said he liked to blatantly take off, pay homage, rip off, poke fun at, whatever you want to call it, well known parts of other movies for his own fun. He never makes big budget movies. He wants complete control at his own pace. He makes films for his fans and doesn't care about anyone who criticises him. These are (abbrev) direct quotes. So say what you will - he doesn't care if you like his movies or not because he makes them for his own pleasure ... and they just so happen to be popular with the punters and he makes money for his investors. Lucky for him

So he likes to rip off and doesn't care what anyone thinks? Maybe he should have cared otherwise his blatant rip off "Doomsday" wouldn't have done so poorly at the box office that he's now stuck to doing direct to video movies. Once again, you are way off. He doesn't make money for investors.

As for his other films I would say they do have the Neil Marshall stamp on them which might be off putting to those that are not keen on his style. Personally I do like his style and the "rip off" bits in some of his movies I find amusing. I like the werewolf genre, maybe a bit too much. I do forgive some of the low budget looking stuff as being just that but I don't find that these are overly cheesy when Neil Marshall is at the helm. So I suppose you could call me a NM fan and Dog Soldiers is right up my street - so I like it with all its misgivings, which IMHO are not that many if you take it as it is rather than trying to rewrite it to suit yourself

We all can't like everything

I really don't give a damn what you like. I didn't ask whether you liked this movie or not. I am simply pointing out that this is movie is nothing but a rip-off of American movies and it's idiotic to say it's original or British.

My sig: why do almost all movies on imdb have a "worst movie ever!" thread?

[–] stuart-193 11 years ago

[quote]I really don't give a damn what you like. I didn't ask whether you liked this movie or not. I am simply pointing out that this is movie is nothing but a rip-off of American movies and it's idiotic to say it's original or British. {/quote]
Well I don't give a damn about your opinion either

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I don't know what it is, but its weird and pissed off!

[–] TheManInOil 12 years ago

You're absolutely right. Clearly the writer/director loves American horror films and his movies are a tribute to them. But I don't see anything wrong with that. Sergio Leone made westerns influenced by Hollywood, but his movies were still both good and unique to him.

This movie featured obvious references to other American films too, like the 'Kobayashi Maru' test from Star Trek and 'there is no spoon' from The Matrix. Here's a movie made by a movie fan.

"I'll book you. I'll book you on something. I'll find something in the book to book you on."

[–] Teremov 12 years ago

C'mon, this is a movie where one of the characters is named Bruce Campbell! It is obviously making fun of American movies and cliches - well, not as obviously as Scary Movies, but that's what makes it a British film. That, and a very good writing. Not to mention this is one of the best werewolf movies ever created.

[–] jtfriday2000 12 years ago

So it looks like fans of this flick are unsure what this movie is. First, it was an original British movie. Then, when I pointed out it's cliched, it became a homage to American movies. Now it's a spoof. Looks like people are clueless what this movie is. Pretty soon they'll even be uncertain this is even a werewolf film.

My sig: why do almost all movies on imdb have a "worst movie ever!" thread?

[–] Teremov 12 years ago

OR different people have different opinions ;) I'm not a fan by no means, but I consider DS both an original movie and a homage/spoof/whatever. It is not in the league with Brooks/ZAZ/Scary Movies, but more like Shaun of the Dead or Big Trouble in Little China. It pays homage while remaining an original movie with its own plot, characters, etc.

[–] jtfriday2000 12 years ago

OR different people have different opinions ;) I'm not a fan by no means, but I consider DS both an original movie and a homage/spoof/whatever. It is not in the league with Brooks/ZAZ/Scary Movies, but more like Shaun of the Dead or Big Trouble in Little China. It pays homage while remaining an original movie with its own plot, characters, etc.

Just because you have a different opinion, that doesn't mean it's correct ;)

The plot revolves around a group of people stuck inside a house, guarding themselves ravenous creatures. How is the plot original? It's been used hundreds of times in American horror. The characters could have easily been soldiers from some other nationality: America, French, Argentinian, etc.

Dog Soldiers is a ripoff. Fact. It cannot be original and a ripoff at the same time.

My sig: why do almost all movies on imdb have a "worst movie ever!" thread?

[–] Teremov 12 years ago

Well, call it as you want, but it is still
-one of the best werewolf horror movies, which for the most part suck
-among the best horror/comedy flicks, which for the most part suck
-among the best horror movies of 2000s, as it was stated in many polls

Oh, and if you put it this way, all your American horror with people stuck inside a house and attacked by creatures is a ripoff of our Russian horror movie Viy, released a year before Night of the Living Dead :)

[–] jtfriday2000 12 years ago

Well, call it as you want, but it is still
-one of the best werewolf horror movies, which for the most part suck
-among the best horror/comedy flicks, which for the most part suck
-among the best horror movies of 2000s, as it was stated in many polls

Oh, and if you put it this way, all your American horror with people stuck inside a house and attacked by creatures is a ripoff of our Russian horror movie Viy, released a year before Night of the Living Dead :)

How many werewolf movies have you actually seen? This movie doesn't explore the werewolf mythos, nor does it explore the psychology of a man turning into a werewolf. Even Silver Bullet and the Howling do a better job. This movie could have easily been a zombie movie.

Secondly, the only comedy I found in this was the blatant plagiarism that the director tried to pass off as original.

Third, how do you know this is the best horror of the 2000s? Do you always believe every poll? Asian horror (specifically Japanese and Korean) were the best of the 2000s.

Lastly, I just looked up your Soviet horror flick Viy. Few Soviet films were released in the United States. I cannot find any evidence Viy was one of them. Therefore, the American filmmakers have never seen Viy. You cannot ripoff a movie if you've never watched it. But the creators of Dog Soldiers have seen American horror and ripped it off. Do you understand now?:)

My sig: why do almost all movies on imdb have a "worst movie ever!" thread?

[–] Teremov 12 years ago

Well, I guess I saw most of the "important" werewolf movies. I recall Ginger Snaps trilogy, An American Werewolf in London/Paris, The Howling (and one or two pointless sequels), Silver Bullet (I didn't find any story in it at all), Wolf with Nicholson, The Company of Wolves, The Wolf Man and Curse of the Werewolf classics and some garbadge like Teen Wolf, Romasanta and Underworld.

Of all these I can name five great movies, with only two of them (The Wolf Man and American Werewolf in London) being true to the canons. Curse of Werewolf is a wonderful piece, but it is mostly a drama, and Ginger Snaps/The Company of Wolves use werewolf theme as a coming of age metaphor. For me (and not only for me) Dog Soldiers is among these werewolf and horror classics. Practically EVERY poll I've met mentioned it as one of the best of 00s. Along with Asian horror, which I personally can't stand, like any horror based on dead children.

And I was joking about Viy, of course, although it was released outside USSR as Spirit of Evil (or Evil Spirit). I'm pretty sure Romero found inspiration elsewhere, but then most of zombie films that followed didn't have political or social undertones he developed, so they are also not that canonical.

[–] jtfriday2000 12 years ago

Well, I guess I saw most of the "important" werewolf movies. I recall Ginger Snaps trilogy, An American Werewolf in London/Paris, The Howling (and one or two pointless sequels), Silver Bullet (I didn't find any story in it at all), Wolf with Nicholson, The Company of Wolves, The Wolf Man and Curse of the Werewolf classics and some garbadge like Teen Wolf, Romasanta and Underworld.

Of all these I can name five great movies, with only two of them (The Wolf Man and American Werewolf in London) being true to the canons. Curse of Werewolf is a wonderful piece, but it is mostly a drama, and Ginger Snaps/The Company of Wolves use werewolf theme as a coming of age metaphor. For me (and not only for me) Dog Soldiers is among these werewolf and horror classics. Practically EVERY poll I've met mentioned it as one of the best of 00s. Along with Asian horror, which I personally can't stand, like any horror based on dead children.

And I was joking about Viy, of course, although it was released outside USSR as Spirit of Evil (or Evil Spirit). I'm pretty sure Romero found inspiration elsewhere, but then most of zombie films that followed didn't have political or social undertones he developed, so they are also not that canonical.

You latest post doesn't make any sense.

You complain that Silver Bullet doesn't have any story at all? Does Dog Soldiers have a story? The basic story of Dog Soldiers was taken directly from Night of the Living Dead. It's better to have no story at all than a plagiarized one.

You complain that some werewolf movies aren't true to canons. Is Dog Soldiers true to canon? It doesn't explore lycanthropy at all. Like I said, Silver Bullet does a better job of exploring lycanthropy. You complain about zombie movies that followed Romero not having social or political overtones, but Dog Soldiers doesn't have any either.

You also stated you don't like Asian horror. You imply that you don't think it should be in the best of the 2000s. You fail to see that I feel the same way about Dog Soldiers. Just because Dog Soldiers are rated highly in 1 or 2 polls doesn't mean it's a great movie.

Lastly, I think you're lying when you say you're joking about Viy. I think you originally meant to use it as a serious argument. But when I pointed out the flaw you pretended it was a joke.

Like I said before, Dog Soldiers is a rip-off. A movie cannot be a rip-off and original at the same time. If you like Dog Soldiers you're free to do so. But to claim this movie is original is preposterous.

My sig: why do almost all movies on imdb have a "worst movie ever!" thread?

[–] Teremov 12 years ago

>You complain that some werewolf movies aren't true to canons. Is Dog Soldiers true to canon? It doesn't explore lycanthropy at all. Like I said, Silver Bullet does a better job of exploring lycanthropy. You complain about zombie movies that followed Romero not having social or political overtones, but Dog Soldiers doesn't have any either.

I didn't "complain". I just showed you that a werewolf movie (or other themed movie for that matter) does not need to be canonical to be good. Dog Soldiers is sure not canonical - it is a different view on werewolf movies. There were no claustrophobic/soldier werewolf movies before and very few humorous ones. It has great living characters compared to schematic boy and his uncle in Silver Bullet. And "homage" was written all over it from the very beginning. And the fact that I prefer it to Asian horror doesn't make me go around boards claiming that Ringu is a ripoff of Bergman's Hour of the Wolf, as there's a dead child who haunt the islanders.

>Lastly, I think you're lying when you say you're joking about Viy. I think you originally meant to use it as a serious argument. But when I pointed out the flaw you pretended it was a joke.

In that case I don't see any point in further discussion.

[–] jtfriday2000 12 years ago

In that case I don't see any point in further discussion.

All right. Good bye. Take care of yourself.

My sig: why do almost all movies on imdb have a "worst movie ever!" thread?

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] The_Proprietor 11 years ago

There is no such thing as a "correct" opinion. It's expressing one's viewpoint rather than a fact.

If impersonating a Police Officer is an offence, shouldn't actors be imprisoned?

[–] JesusIsCute 12 years ago

Coca Cola is the worst tasting cola. Just saying. Try a bottle of Fentimans. And yes, this film is not excellent. And yes probably influenced by some american movies, most mainstream movies are the same anyway. Whatever the country. if i had to pin a movie as a modern example of excellent british cinema, i would choose Dead man's Shoes (2004).

But then my favourite movies are from american writer/Director Frank Henenlotter. He is truly one-of-a-kind.

OP, get your head out of your arse.

[–] diegoavilarodriguez 12 years ago

Well i dont think the problem with american movies is that they use cliches, i love watching slasher flicks so cliches dont bother me. the problem is when thats all your movie has. What sets dog soldiers a part from your modern american horror movie is that it does provide good characters that you do simpathize with. In american horror you almost never feel bad for the people that die, either becuase we never get to know them well enough or they do something idiotic and stupid so when they die we feel like they deserved it. Most of the characters in dog soldiers are likeable because we get to understand who each one is, the sarge, joe, spoon, and coop, they dont make stupid choices that get themselves killed, they plan things out and are ultimately outmatched not because they make stupid decisions but because their enemies were smarter and stronger.

This is why i think cliches arent a problem as long as you´ve got a good story with interesting characters, of course as long as the cliches dont outshine them. Although i would like to point out that a the cliche you mentioned about them hiding in a house, doesnt seem like a cliche to me, the only other film ive seen that does this exact same thing is night of the living, so it doesnt really seem like a cliche.

[–] vestdennis 12 years ago

I thought the movie was better than average- esp compared to the garbage being spewed out lately! The werewolves were actually pretty good (costume). I absolutely hate the cheesy CGI crap that is over used these days. Too many movies have that "Hulk" look to them that looks cartoonish...

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] jtfriday2000 12 years ago

This is a British horror, end of.

I love how you say end of as if you have the power to end discussions. You're not a mod. Quit making yourself useless.

My sig: why do almost all movies on imdb have a "worst movie ever!" thread?

[–] Radalan 12 years ago

I don't remember seeing any "This movie is innovative" texts before the start of the film. You might not be one of those people who thinks America is the center of the earth but you sure are foaming about it.

Everything has been done before. Whatever you do, can remind somebody of something else.

What clichés? Thats a word the wannabe critics use when they want to whinge.

[–] jtfriday2000 12 years ago

I don't remember seeing any "This movie is innovative" texts before the start of the film. You might not be one of those people who thinks America is the center of the earth but you sure are foaming about it.

Everything has been done before. Whatever you do, can remind somebody of something else.

Whether or not I'm foaming about whatever is your opinion. It adds nothing to the discussion. My discussion was that this movie is a blatant rip-off.

My sig: why do almost all movies on imdb have a "worst movie ever!" thread?

[–] maddy52101 12 years ago

The movie is a tribute more than a rip-off. Neil Marshall isn't trying to hide the fact that he incorporated elements from other movies and then put his own twist on everything, this movie doesn't take itself too seriously. Saying it isn't British is like saying Ford doesn't make American cars because Mercedes was making similar cars before them. British culture was very instrumental in the way this movie turned out. Unless you've lived in isolation all your life its impossible not to create anything that hasn't been someway influence by pervious existing ideas.

[–] chilone 11 years ago

Guess what? Like it or not, America IS the center of the earth and when she falls, you'll realize it.

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!