MovieChat Forums > We Were Soldiers (2002) Discussion > Ethics of throwing a rifle at a civilian...

Ethics of throwing a rifle at a civilian? and other questions


Sure, Joe was a good guy, he was a Texan whose family was filled with soldiers, meaning he probably knew how to fire a rifle pretty well, and he sure was dressed like a soldier in those fatigues. That's all well and good. But throwing a rifle at a civilian, no matter what his background or how he's dressed, and telling them to fight? There have gotta have army rules against such things, right?

Look, I'm not a moron - I know they needed every single person they could get to carry a rifle, or at least that's the way it was depicted in the movie. I'm not questioning the propriety of what was actually done here. I'm just asking more in a hypothetical situation, whether there are specific rules about having non-combatants fight, even in an extreme situation like this. Also, are army medics still not allowed to carry a gun? (And I know that most of them probably do, or at least did; again, I'm not stupid. My uncle was a medic and "secretly" carried one in WW II.) Were the medics fighting, or ordered to fight during this battle?

How about journalistic rules and ethics about not getting involved in the story you're covering? Did Joe get any journalistic heat for this? I know the Army eventually gave him the bronze star (or at least, so Wikipedia says), but what about UPI? By the way, the movie shows Joe mowing down a couple of PAVN soldiers; did he really do this? What was he given the bronze star for?




I asked the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

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I'd question his motives for wanting to immerse himself in a battle dressed in one of the combatants' uniforms, while claiming to remain neutral on the issue. (A referee wearing one of the playing teams' uniforms- what would either team, or the fans, think about that?)

Joe Galloway was a civilian combat correspondant, and was faced with the proposition to continue his role on the sidelines and watch his countrymen be overrun by enemies shooting at everything dressed in olive-drab (including himself), or make a stand and defend the men he'd flown in with. A personal choice was offered to him with that rifle toss. He chose to pick it up.

Joe was awarded the bronze star in 1998 for rescuing wounded soldiers under fire in 1965. He's the only civilian to win a military combat honor in Vietnam.


Medics were never banned from carrying arms. Indeed, they've always carried firearms, with the outstanding exception of medal of honor recipient Desmond Doss- a conscientious objector who refused to touch a weapon.

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Combat journalists wore the uniform (sans insignia) for the same reason soldiers did, it blended into the foilage making them harder to spot and therefor shoot.
At least that is what I would assume (and yes I know the old adage about 'assuming' something, so if anyone knows the reason for sure please tell me).

Using the rifle (whether it was tossed to him or he grabbed it himself) would have been self defense in my opinion. They were getting over run and I doubt the NVA soldiers were going to go 'let me see your press card, ok you can go'. The same with medics in a combat situation. The LoAC (Laws of Armed Conflict) and Geneva Convention prohibit the targeting of people wearing the Red Cross/ Red Cresent markings denoting them as medical personnel, However we (the U.S.) seem to have a habit of going to war with groups of people that use those two documents to wipe their ***es with. Even the most die hard pacifist have the survival instinct embedded in their genes and may be surprised by their own actions when it comes down to do or die in a combat/survival situation.

Anyway that's my thought on the subject, I don't claim it to be absolute or inerrant.

"I'd resent that if I were sober."
Lt. Col Henry Blake

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Medics are authorized to carry a rifle and pistol for personal defense, but are forbidden from using anything heavier in an "offensive" manner. I don't recall if the casualty collection point was actually threatened in the battle, but in the movie when CSM Plumely said "prepare to defend yourselves," he was addressing the medics and the wounded because that was the worst point of the battle where every position was being hit hard and almost overrun. (Medics and their facilities are supposed to be off limits in battle - on paper anways). While Galloway was correct in asserting he was a noncombatant, Plummely basically told him "you're either going to be a dead noncombatant or alive in the next few minutes, pick one".

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Teddy

A medic may used deadly force to protect self and patients.

I think this situation would qualify.

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I think your reply was meant for jgroub.

As I stated, Desmond Doss was an exception. A look at any navy corpsman will certainly contradict the "medics don't kill people" argument, and put them more in the "Rambo while treating wounds" category.

Joe was a civilian combat correspondant, not an enlisted medic, hence the debate over him firing a weapon in combat.

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I greatly Admired the Joe Galloway of old, the one portrayed in the movie.

But the Joe Galloway of today is another person entirely.
I live in Victoria Texas, 1/2 hour from Refugio Texas. Our local newspaper (victoriaadvocate.com) always carries a guest column from ol' Joe.

The Joe of today is an anti-conservative, liberal leftwing nutcase, constantly spewing filth and hate toward anything non-liberal.



I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[deleted]

Hate, vituperation, and intolerance is pretty much the hallmark of the left wing.

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I was under the impression that Galloway had been made to carry a rifle by the army since he touched down in Vietnam, not just during the battle.

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I didn't know Joe was a civilian at all until well after I first saw this film. Why was he allowed onto the battlefield in the first place? When he asked the helicopter pilot if he had "room for one more", the answer he should have gotten was an immediate "NO! GET OUT OF HERE!"


~~"Lucas, you and I were just friends."~~

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In most modern wars, the press have had pretty good freedom of movement to cover the battles. I don't know what the exact policy was for the press in Vietnam, but I'm sure Joe was assigned by UPI to that area or that unit to cover whatever was going on. Journalists hopping a ride to cover a battle is nothing new, and there were probably army policies in place regarding how they were to be accomodated.

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I guess I was thinking that, with the realization that the air cav was very outnumbered, filling the choppers with rifle carrying soldiers would take priority over journalists. But anyway, Joe did make it to the field, and I'm glad he did. I think this story quite possibly never would have been told if Joe Galloway hadn't experienced it firsthand.

~~"Lucas, you and I were just friends."~~

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Put this in context. At least, let me try.

The ethics in combat journalism, and journalism in general, from the Viet Nam era are a whole different animal than what we see / hear / read now. Forty or so years ago, the number and circulation of newspapers was, even on a per capita basis, far less than today. Factor in that most people who actually owned televisions only had the “Big 3” networks from which to choose, and ethics just seemed a much more important factor then.

Today, we can practically turn on our satellite or digital cable television and tune in to the channel with the most appropriate content for our personal beliefs. The same can be said for the print or online subscriptions. So, by market demand, even journalism has become skewed.

As a previous poster observed, most of the information the public received in Viet Nam was via our own government. And, really, what do you think they would have said? “Wow. We were not prepared for this. Can we get a do-over?” Of course not. The administration was already invested in this war, yes – WAR – and what administration can back-track from that and believe they will come up all roses? So, the administration’s best stance on any coverage was to have it come out of their own offices.

It appears, however, that the media at that time disagreed. Enter the precursor to the “embedded journalist.” The only way to even attempt to get the media on board was to start allowing actual journalists into what was, at the very early stages, thought to be a done-deal. Positive press was desperately needed. Unfortunately for the government, it was a gamble that backfired.

On another point, I agree with another poster. When, in this movie, Galloway was handed a military rifle, I didn’t see it as “an order.” (Regardless of how the movie drama played it). It was a method of self-defense, and his personal choice. If someone is coming at you, firing, would you fire back to protect yourself or others? That’s a legal defense, and I can only imagine that it has to be valid in the middle of a war zone. A very hot one, at that. I suppose the fact that he was from Texas and from a family of soldiers might have been to his benefit. At least he was depicted as knowing how to use the da*n gun. The NCO who tossed him the rifle in the movie did him a favor; he at least gave him the option of defense. And he put it in perspective. How many people can defend themselves in a fire fight with a Nikon? It would be great if you could just hold up your camera and yell “journalist” or something in their language but, unfortunately, reality doesn’t work that way.

As someone else on here put it, those countries don’t generally observe the articles of the Geneva Convention or any other law but their own.
So, if I were an embedded journalist, would I want the power, or at least the option, to defend myself? You’re da*mn right I would. And I would not hesitate.

If ethics were simple in any profession, there wouldn’t be specialists to advise people on them. And, sometimes, “popular” ethics have to be sacrificed in the name of self-preservation. Or, more importantly, the preservation of your family, your friends, your way of life.

Just so you know, I was born late into the Viet Nam War. So, I don’t have many personal memories except for a cousin who died. His parents lived next door to us, but I was too young to remember much about what was happening. No one likes to talk about it.

One of my closest friends is a veteran of that war. He, now, reminds me of Sam Elliot’s character. The old, grizzled wiseass. But you’d never find a better friend.

I await the bashing that always comes with a post on IMDB. But, hey, that’s the price of freedom of speech. At least, some of it.



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On another point, I agree with another poster. When, in this movie, Galloway was handed a military rifle, I didn’t see it as “an order.” (Regardless of how the movie drama played it). It was a method of self-defense, and his personal choice. If someone is coming at you, firing, would you fire back to protect yourself or others? That’s a legal defense, and I can only imagine that it has to be valid in the middle of a war zone. A very hot one, at that.


But to what extent is it self defence when it was the people that you flew in with who are the agressors?
IMO you can't call it self defence when the people who you're defending yourself from are defending themselves.

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When Galloway was offered the rifle, he had a choice. He chose to use it in what he probably judged to be a kill-or-be-killed situation.

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The NVA were the aggressors. They were occupying South Vietnam, where Ia Drang Valley is/was located.

In fact, no US battle was even fought in North Vietnam.

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Like a lot of this movie, that scene was put in for some kind of dramatic effect. has anyone read the book written by Moore and Galloway? In it they clearly state that Joe already had the rifle BEFORE he even arrived on that battlefield, and indeed had been carrying one for a while previously.

As for the rules about haviing non-combatants fight, they are clear. They don't have to, and if they are not armed then techinically they enemy should not shoot them, however there is nothing stopping them from picking up a weapon if they so choose.

the only people activily forbidden from using weapons are chaplains and padre's (unless you are Polish in which case you are issued a sidearm, but not to shoot the enemy).

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"unless you are Polish in which case you are issued a sidearm, but not to shoot the enemy"

Heh, heh. I am shocked, shocked at this reference to the inherent lack of intelligence of the great Polish people!






I asked the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

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It wasn't a insult towards the polish. Their military chaplains were issued side arms for the express purpose of putting mortally wounded soldiers out of their misery. Seems like a good idea to me.

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Well, that's almost as funny as what I thought you were implying in your other post.

Just kidding, of course.




I asked the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

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I was told by a friend who met Galloway that prior to Ia Drang, he was at the Plei Mei Special Forces camp and was feeding ammo into an M60 machine gun with Chargin' Charlie Beckwith. This battle is alluded to in the film when Moore is being briefed. History is full of examples of jornalists picking up arms when necessary. Churchill in the Boer War anyone?

To quote from another good VN film (but not well-respected among non-military folks) - "Hamburger Hill:"

Sgt Franz to journalist (possibly military from Satrs & Stripes):

"What are you doing here? You're job? I have more respect for the little people on top of this hill. At least they take a side. You just take pictures. You probably don't even do your own *beep* Listen to me newsman. We're going to take this hill. If I see you on top taking pictures of any of my prople; I'll blow your *beep* head off."

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Wasent at least 1 US Army chaplain was killed in Vietnam and went down fighting with a rifle. I don't recall the details but it was one hell of a fight and close to an entire battalion was wiped out and the chaplain was the senior ranking officer unwounded (US military chaplains are all officers - I believe this is the norm in almost all militaries with a chaplain corps) and was killed when the North Vietnamese overran the aid post.

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The ban on chaplains carrying weapons dates back to the late '70s/early '80s, well after Vietnam, and even today, in a "last stand" situation, no one is going to give a chaplain flak.

In fact, in Korea, chaplains were encouraged to carry sidearms, because they were singled out for execution by the DPRK.

I don't think the NVA did that, though.

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Wasent at least 1 US Army chaplain was killed in Vietnam and went down fighting? I don't recall the details but it was one hell of a fight and close to an entire battalion was wiped out and the chaplain was the last senior ranking officer alive/unwounded (US military chaplains are all officers - I believe this is the norm in almost all militaries with a chaplain corps) and was killed when the North Vietnamese overran the aid post.

I could be wrong but I believe he was a Navy chaplain serving with a USMC unit.

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I'm not sure how things were back then but under modern British army regulation any journalists intending to be embedded with British forces on active duty need to pass the standard firearms exam with the SA80 just in case.

My opinion is my property, be careful with it please!

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The ban on chaplains carrying weapons didn't exist in Vietnam.

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Tell me, if we had a civil war in the US again, between the north and the south, and Vietnam came to help us, and a Vietnamese soldier saw you walking and threw a rifle at you and told you to fight your fellow countryman, your brother, and kill him...just over political differences....would you do it?

-------------------------
"I'm verklempt, talk amongst yourselves..."

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I also wonder if having medics engage in combat would conflict with their Hippocratic oath?

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I spoke with some medics a few years ago when I was in the army. They told me that they are permitted to use weapons (and kill) if they or their patient's lives were being threatened.

Whether this is true for doctors is another matter, afterall do medics take the oath anyway?

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It's for all medical personnel.

The only ones banned from carrying weapons are chaplains, and even then it only dates back to the late '70s/early '80s.

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"There have gotta have army rules against such things, right?"

I'm a civilian GS employee of the US Army, at a base in the southern United States. Sometimes, our civilian employees get jobs in the middle east. When they do, they are sent to Fort Benning, for two weeks, to train on how to use Army weapons such as M-16s, SAWs, pistols and M-203s. These civilians are not expected to fight; but, depending on what their job is, some of these jobs, (like engineering) are in the field, with the soldiers. If the situation arises, like a small group of soldiers and civilians getting surrounded, by the bad guys, and they have to fight their way out, it nice that a civilian can pick up a weapon and defend himself.

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LOL... I think when you are about to get overrun, with people dropping all around you, the rules, political correctness, and BS for whether a civilian can shoot or not go flying right out the window! They would for me... if I lived through it, you can convict me!

Obama IS the President... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427392/ Obamanites UNITE!

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Agreed. I don't think the enemy was going to care if he was a journalist. If they were overrun, the journalist was more than likely going to be dead.

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I can accept that, as a civilian in hostile country, he would wear camo fatigues. I found it odd that, as a declared civilian, he should be wearing a military shoulder patch! You can glimpse it really briefly a few times during the action. As far as the ethics of his using a firearm, the enemy is about to overwhelm your side's perimeter. In the heat of battle, its highly unlikely an enemy running on adrenaline is going to stop at a guy, wearing a uniform very similar to the one used by combatants, simply b/c he's toting a camera.

Thus if Galloway wants to survive he'd best pick up a weapon & be prepared to pull the trigger. The guy coming towards him sure won't hesitate to fire!

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Jeez, none of you guys are professional journalists, are you? Allow me to channel my late father, who worked many decades as a print, radio and TV reporter, and also taught journalism, including journalistic ethics:

A journalist in combat does not carry arms because that makes him/her part of the story, so to speak. Your journalistic neutrality goes out the window. Your purpose of even being there is destroyed. If the real-life Joe Galloway was regularly carrying arms prior to Ia Drang, he shouldn't have.

That said, knowing my dad (who taught me to shoot), if he'd been at Ia Drang and Plumley had tossed a rifle at him, dad would have picked it up and started sending rounds downrange. And so would I.

Also, note that the character of Joe Galloway in the film deliberately sets down his rifle after a certain point and confines himself to helping the wounded and taking pictures. That is ethically consistent journalistic practice.

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Joe Galloway arrived at the Ia Drang Valley with an M16 and carried it the entire battle, was at the Plei Mei Special Forces camp, and fed an M60 with Chargin' Charlie Beckwith.

In fact, here's a picture of him holding a submachine gun. http://images.military.com/pics/Galloway_050405.jpg

This is one of the movie's artistic licenses. Another is the bayonet charge. They were actually reinforced by two battalions, withdrew, and the NVA positions were levelled by a B-52 strike.

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Some commanders have told their soldiers to specifically target Medics, Chaplin s and Officers to decrease morale and the will to fight, so much to the point that in WW2, some officers, even Generals would not wear any insignia or rank on his uniform. Sad to say, but in many conflicts, we are the ones usually reading ROE while our enemy is using it as Toilet Paper.

"May God have mercy on my enemies as I shall have none"
"George S Patton"

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