MovieChat Forums > We Were Soldiers (2002) Discussion > I'm reading the book now, halfway throug...

I'm reading the book now, halfway through - Q on reinforcements


Okay, the book is good, I'm enjoying it - although I have to say, it's easier to visualize what's going on having seen the movie first. I doubt that I would have been able to figure some stuff out otherwise.

Anyway, here's my question. Moore's orders are basically to find and engage the enemy, they see they're in the Ia Drang Valley, off they go. But that seems waaay too casual, not thought through enough. It seems as if the very first thing they should be doing is staying near and holding onto the LZ until the entire battallion is there, not gallavanting off like Herrick did. Once the LZ is entirely secure, then they could move out and take positions closer to the mountain, but not before that, right?

Because it seems suicidal not to be able to protect that LZ, both a lifeline and an escape route, at all costs until everybody is there and you've fully evaluated the situation on the ground.

Now, here's my main question, but it ties into the first question. Late in the first day, Moore calls in for reinforcements, and they start to come in, but it's only one company at first. Why so few? He knew he was in a very hot battle, why not call in another entire batallion - which eventually arrives a day late, and to my mind, a dollar short, as well.

Here's my thinking - so, you've landed in part of the first batallion, and things are too hot. But if you had totally secured the LZ before moving out, you could have gotten in the whole reinforcement battallion, and a lot earlier too. That would have saved lives, kept people from being overrun. I think the book says his understrength battallion was facing three full-strength battallions. While Americans may be better than the PAVN, they aren't that much better. This seems ill-conceived to me, not to get a more equal strength on the ground sooner rather than later.

I think that he doesn't call for the reinforcements sooner out of, I dunno, pride or machismo - not wanting to be seen as calling for help too soon. But he already called "Broken Arrow", so why not call for the reinforcements - and the right amount - as well?

What I see as the failures here is that he 1. Didn't have a big enough LZ; 2. Didn't have enough helicopters to get his troops in and together fast enough (instead of it taking multiple trips and many hours); and 3. He didn't call for reinforcements soon enough when faced with an almost untenable situation on the ground in terms of the size of the forces he was facing.

One answer to at least 1 and 2 is the Rumsfeld line: you do what you can with what you've got. Okay, fine, but if you do that, then lots of Americans will die. If he had made sure he held that LZ, and called for reinforcements sooner, and in the proper amount, less Americans would have been killed.

Am I wrong? All I know about the military is what I "learned" in the movies, so go easy on me. I admit I don't know what I'm talking about.





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All this comes down too is that the United States had no experience with fighting the NVA and VC on large scale battles while also trying to modernize their own military.

1. Moore said himself the reason why the French lost is because the NVA got too close to important locations that made hell for the French to reinforce when needed. He also said that because of this, he wanted to engage the enemy as far from the LZ as he could so if he had to retreat or reinforce, it could be smooth.

2. The location of the battle plus only a certain amount of Huey's is why he had to reinforce the way he did. Also, the US did not know how strong the enemy was during this battle, both in numbers or equipment.

3. Broke Arrow is only allowed when a high rank US officer is facing defeat during a battle calling for all air support to be directed to them immediately.

4. As pointed on top, the US did not completely have intelligence on the NVA-VC fighting force. They knew they were working with Soviet and Chinese equipment but did not know how much trained they were. The only thing they knew for sure is that they were experience with war and were motivated to win.

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Well, when I talk about intelligence on the enemy, I'm talking about where they are and how many there are. It seems to me he had almost no intelligence (by this definition) and went in practically blind. That seems to me to be the real mistake here. How can you commit your force when you don't know what's there? I think that's far worse than your number 4, that they didn't have intelligence on what kind of training and equipment they had.



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I did point that out in number 2 about the numbers issue. The previous battle that lead to this battle, allied forces were being assaulted by 3000+ NVA and then retreated which lead to this battle. The United States believe that our military were far superior than the NVA in every way and decided the best way to destroy the enemy is to instead of routing his ability to make war (like WWII) to just destroy this army.

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The Allies didn't destroy Germany by "routing" their ability to make war. We did it by intelligence/subterfuge (Ultra), and by grinding up everything they threw at us, both in the battlefield and by devastating their lines of communication. Up to the very end Germany continued to crank out war materiel and equip their forces, nor did either the military or populace lose motivation and morale (til the last few weeks and most of their homeland had been overrun).

The exception to this was the campaign against their fuel supply, but even here the Germans somehow managed to fuel the Battle of the Bulge and some jet fighters.

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Moore knew they were going in blind, but he was ordered to attack and carried that out as best he could. As far as the LZ, the longer you stay bunched up in one location the easier it is for you to be surrounded and killed. He pushed his troops out as far as he thought he could and still control them. He still didn't know where the enemy was and needed to find them. That would help determine his next courses of action. The worst thing for them is to have to fight right on the LZ. It means your very lifeline is under direct attack. Sending the first waves out was a risk since there weren't many of them yet, but it was worth it to ensure the LZ itself wasn't too close to the fight.

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Ah, interesting, and good point.




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and there seemed to be LOTS of them: a couple regiments had already suffered heavy casualties attacking the SpecForce camp at Plei Mei; the brass was pretty sure there were either parts of two or more depleted regiments 'in them thar hills' or the rest of the Division/Front's rested regiments waiting. And on top of that, post war, we learned the Giap ordered the NVA to engage as intensely as possible to learn the sort of firepower & mobility the 1st Cav could dish out.







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Which is why US tried to put as much effort into Air Cav as possible as the enemy was afraid of retreating nor not afraid of violating neutrality in order to operate. A major issue the US also had in long term is they refused to secure ground. I have read and heard countless stories of units being sent into the hills to destroy a VC or NVA outpost, they show up. The enemy either abandoned it or left behind rear security, the US takes it and leaves. The enemy returns.

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Yes; part of the NVA mission was to get a feeling for how mobile air mobility was. After Ia Drang the NVA learned when The Cav was coming & would always try to slip away. According to Gunther Lewy the NVA/VC initiated up to 90% of all actions company size or larger. As such they could always control their casualties & keep them at an 'acceptable' level.




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To this day, I have no idea WTF General Westmoreland was thinking when it came to this war. I understand he couldn't control his allies actions or their inability to operate but look at some of the US' allies in that war, S. Korea and Australia had the best secured territory in S. Vietnam because they would go out of their way to destroy the enemy and take control of their hills to make sure they didn't return.

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I feel the real issue was allowing the NVA to rest & resupply in Laos & Cambodia with impunity. That and having JFK listen to Sheehan & Halberstam (who's interpreter was, by all accounts an NVA intel officer) & undermine Diem.




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That's a whole another issue. Congress didn't want this to break into an actual war fearing the Soviet Union and PRC would set in to turn around and found it they would, with China having 250,000 on stand by and USSR having 8,000 in N. Vietnam but the Laos and Cambodia issue was something we couldn't control which is why we forced S. Vietnam to invade those countries.

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I know...but much of it was due to faulty intel; the NVA intervened into Laos during the laotian crisis with a division & a half worth of troops to aid it's proxy. Anyway you don't need to invade the whole country--just a line of fortified positions running from the South China Sea to the Thai Border-just pick a spot where the panhandle is the narrowest.






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The issue about that, that I don't understand is why didn't the US declare war nor did the UN get involved. It was clear N. Vietnam didn't respect neutral territory at all.

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The UN was only able to get involved in the Korean War because the USSR failed to exercise their veto power against it. In Vietnam, that was not the case.

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I am not taking about a peace keeping involvement but you are right as USSR and maybe China (I can't remember if ROC still had the seat at this time) would veto it but one of the issues was that Vietnam was suppose to have an election but that blame goes to US.

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