Some people state "this movie is anti-American." I say, even if you believe that, so what?
"Pearl Harbor" is anti-Japanese. "Hostel" is anti-Eastern European. Lots of cowboy movies are anti-Indian. Lots of WW2 movies are anti-German. So what? Is America supposed to be immune from criticism? Is there a law or a reason why a movie can't use America as a setting for negative story?
"Go! put off holiness, / And put on intellect"
--William Blake
You just nailed it, ilssaridor. Even though IMO the movie is not exactly anti-U.S.A. With some minor modifications, 'Dogville' could have been set in practically every country on this world, since it talks basically about the human condition.
Anyway, let's consider for one minute that 'Dogville' is really an anti-USA film. As you've said, so what? So nobody has the right to criticize the yanks but they do have the right to criticize the rest of the world? kinda unfair, isn't it?
What I find the most interesting is the huge level of hipocrisy found in the people from USA, from the most ignorant to renowned critics such as Roger Ebert.
Hollywood has almost 100 years vilifying, stereotyping and depicting in the most unfair and malicious way any other country.
There are literally thousands of anti-german, anti-japanese, anti-russian, anti-vietnamese, anti-mexican, anti-chinese, anti-spanish, anti-cuban, anti-arab, anti-turkish, even anti-british and anti-french films produced by Hollywood. Not to mention the frankly racist depiction of racial minorities in plenty of Hollywood films (native-americans, african-americans, latinos, asians, etc.).
IMO the reason why Lars von Trier decided to place 'Dogville' and 'Manderlay' in USA is because the yanks (not all of them) have this silly belief about being "morally superior" to the rest of the world. A belief firmly engraved in The Monroe Doctrine, The Manifest Destiny and crap like that.
Most yanks really believes they are "superior" and behaves like one of those cocky and petulant teenagers who believes they are always right and knows everything. Of course, Lars and the rest of the world knows how foolish is such belief. They (yanks) are no better (nor worse) that any other nation on the world. Perhaps richer (not always) and with more nukes, that's all.
That's why we all sing at the end of the movie with David Bowie: "Ohhh, Young americans, young americans..."
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Clionauta, I both read and appreciate your post, but do you think you could possibly refrain from using the word "yank" so often?
I honestly find it more than a little irritating to be identified with a term I've never, ever associated myself with... And I have never actually met anyone in American that associated themselves with it.
The 18th and 19th century are over. I'm pretty sure you can just call us "Americans" now.
as an american, i also find the broad use of the term "yank" to be silly. i'm from kentucky and i assosciate the term with those who live in the north eastern part of the country, in paritcular the original colonies.
i'm curious, what part of the country are you from and do you consider any portion of the population to be yankees?
Most yanks I talk to don't find themselves superior, at least no more superior than any italian I've talked to while in in Napoli (arrogant *beep* I love my family) or any German while in Frankfurt. I would assume that Von Trier placed Dogville in the US because no matter how angry the people get, the outcry would not be nearly as bad as if it was placed in Turkey (as you mentioned and need I mention the dead Armenians if you want to bring up the N.A. parallel), Russia (how many people did Stalin wipe out in recent history?), China (how many of his own people did Mao Tse Tung get rid of?), and yet the general opinion of the populace stays nationalistic. Mind you I'm not saying the U.S. doesn't have it's share of issues (not going into the current situation), but even with the forgotten horrors of the Phillipines during the Spanish-American War (does anyone remember We-the-USA fired the first shot), you still have a culture that generally can accept the criticism. They'll cry, piss, and moan, but they will always look. Once in awhile they also change. Generally speaking, hopefully for the better.
So whatever, ignore the following post on calling us yanks. It doesnt bother me. What is annoying is taking the ideas of any filmaker (von Trier) or social commentator (Ebert) and assuming that they speak for everyone. You are an individual, as am I, and assuming that we have our own outlook on the world, these guys are just one of many opinions. Everyone has an opinion.
God that was a ramble. Sorry.
I can`t really share your view of the US being a more mature recipient of criticism, rather to the opposite.
I have yet to see a word thrown around as wildly as "anti-american". There are piles on piles of americans complaining about products of media being anti-american, so where are the thousands of imdb boards filled with russians complaining about films being anti-russian? God knows they would have plenty of material for that, thanks, US.
Everybody was pretty pissed in my country after Hostel, so did anybody moan about it being anti-slovak and anti-czech? No, we just watched it, concluded americans got no f--king idea if so many of them liked it despite the ludicrously implausible stereotypes, and gave exactly zero f--k about it after that.
US is anything but mature in receiving criticism, and it`s even worse when it comes to being made fun of.
Any time somebody uses the term "yank" these days there's a good 97% chance that that person is not American.
"What I don't understand is how we're going to stay alive this winter."
Little late but, I was born in Hartford, CT. Lived in Kentucky and Nashville, TN. Worked on my great grandfathers farm in WI and on another to pay rent in TN. Yeah. I'm a yank. I'm an U.S. citizen. So I guess I fall into the 3%.
Have an issue with that? If you do I'm sure you'll be able to cope once you pull that broomstick out of your ass.
I assume this is the type of response you would expect from an American, and I'm feeling gracious so there you go.
Enjoy.
Clionauta: It might help you illustrate your points better if you'd refrain from using one of the few pejoratives (Yank) that the IMDb censorship jockeys won't delete. That being said, this Yank agrees with every point you've made. XD
shareusing one of the few pejoratives (Yank) that the IMDb censorship jockeys won't delete
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People in the US didn't want the film banned, they just acknowledged that it was anti-American *beep*
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there's a difference between depictions of a country in the context of war and a film carrying a message of being "anti" a specific nation.
pearl harbor wasn't anti-japanese. they weren't depicted as villains, but combatants in a war.
hostel isn't anti eastern europe, it uses an eastern european setting as a backdrop for a horror story.
dogville is anti-american because it directly attacks the country itself. it's not just a story taking place in america.
hope you understand the distinction.
"dogville is anti-american because it directly attacks the country itself. it's not just a story taking place in america."
I disagree. Ultimately it's about the ugly side of human nature in general. It's just that the US, due to its power to express that dark side more than most other countries, functions as a very clear example.
Not being deliberately difficult but apart from the use of the Bowie song at the end and the setting, could you explain the distinction?
Besides the song, which was over the credits anyway and not in the main body of the film, I saw little to criticize America directly and lots talking about human nature in general.
If anything it seemed more anti-Christian to me, the hypocrisy of the small town
there's a difference between a message of legitimate criticism of behaviors and character traits embodied by a significant portion of a nation's population and a message of being "anti" that nation
Dogville isn't anti-American, because it makes no attempt to establish the township of Dogville as being typical or representative of America as a whole. in fact, the movie acknowledges the existence of America outside of Dogville, and singles out Dogville as being the one town that the world would be better off without.
it would be different if the township of Dogville was presented as a metaphor for America as a whole (which would preclude mentioning other towns in America, such as St. George), or it had not been so clearly singled out for "exceptional treatment" due to being an undesirable part of a larger nation (note there was no push to level St. George next)
2014 Screenings: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls054830628/
The film is saying being an American/democracy/capitalism leads to rape and murder. You can't see why Americans would be upset about that?
shareThe movie is hardly anti-American, but it is pro-Nazi, which is frightening given that von Trier got in trouble recently for saying Hitler wasn't so bad.
I was having a conversation last night with a friend of mine exactly about what's being debated in this topic and about the movie Dogville.
1. It's not anti- u.s.a., it's human nature and don't matter where you are from
2. Have been living in the u.s. for almost 7 years now and people here tend to be a bit sensitive when they feel someone is criticizing the u.s.
Personally, I find this amusing......right after I raise my eyebrow
"2. Have been living in the u.s. for almost 7 years now and people here tend to be a bit sensitive when they feel someone is criticizing the u.s. "
I'd say you probably live in an area saturated with conservatives. I am a US citizen and I criticize my country (the ignorant, the apathetic, the government and the ruling class of corporatists and the inherited wealthy) all the time. In fact, I LOATHE them and all that they stand for.
They are exactly the small-townspeople depicted in Dogville. That's why Steubenville and Trayvon still happen.
shareWhat the hell does the Trayvon Martin case have to do with anything being discussed here?
share"What the hell does the Trayvon Martin case have to do with anything being discussed here?"
I guess it's how intolerance of differences has led to his shooting. That creepy racist George Zimmerman just had no tolerance for getting his head bashed against the sidewalk by little St. Skittles.
So it's OK if it's anti-US, but were it anti-Britain, anti-Australia, or something else that'd be offensive.
You're so profoundly sad. No. It's just my people are Nordic.