Did he rape her or not? (spoiler) - Tape (2002) Discussion

[–] 666Night999 19 years ago

Last time I got into this kind of discussion I was caught up for a long time. I don't think there is a definitive answer. I think more female viewers WANT there to have been a rape, some kind of empowerment transference going on, but I don't think we can agree with 100% certainty if a rape actually occurred. We only see the conversation about it, not the actual incident in question. And Amy seems to toy with them a lot, playing the victim role, then acting the part role. She contradicts herself too. I think the 2 men both believe at certain times that a rape did occur, but I don't think we'll know for certain, which is part of the movie's allure. It's all hearsay and very fascinating. I think it's a great movie. It really holds your interest for 90 odd minutes with one set and 3 characters. Powerful stuff.

"Nice beaver!"
"Thanks, I just had it stuffed."--The Naked Gun

reply

[–] kooji_kabuto 19 years ago

Thanks for your opinion.

reply

[–] mallratsjunkie 19 years ago

Well, considering the subject matter, I assumed the first time I watched it that she had wanted to have sex with him, but since she was a virgin she was conflicted about it. He forced himself on her somewhat, she resisted somewhat, and somewhere in the middle she wanted him to be doing what he was. I think that she was manipulating the both of them because she was mad that after 10 years or whatever, it was being brought up in a shady hotel room. I mean think about it, this girl lost her virginity to the guy, and 10 years later they're meeting up in a hotel room talking about it, taping conversations... She was made at hawke's character because he felt like she was some sort of property. Because he was dating her, he should have been allowed to have sex with her. I think she wasn't very mad at the guy who she actually had sex with though. But that's just my screwed up opinion.

reply

[–] kooji_kabuto 19 years ago

Thank you too.

reply

[–] charcoalactivity 12 years ago

@666Night999 - Yes, he raped her. I don't think it's even something to argue. As a survivor of sexual abuse, this film pretty much sums up in a 4-minute scene how I (and most rape survivors) deal with "taking back power." It is not in the hand of the abuser/rapist to say the last word, which is exactly what Amy tried to enforce by the end of the film. John wanted to say the last word by apologizing to her as if his apology will make his life better. It was always about him. John has always been self-indulgent. Amy despises him for that because even when he was supposedly apologizing to her, he was actually apologizing to himself. And he was taking Amy's agency as a person even 10 years after the rape.

The entire thing with Amy denying it first is her way of taking back her agency/her power over her own body and her own experience. I don't think I can explain this any more clearly. I wish people would understand more how survivors of rape/sexual abuse actually deal their experience. We don't deny it because it didn't happen; we deny it (initially) to take back our own agency.

reply

[–] SamwiseRulesAll 18 years ago

I keep flipping back and forth with this, although I think, because of the way she reacted, it's a little bit of both. I think she was as iffy about it as she was--maybe it was "date rape" after all.

My guess is he did coerce her into doing something she didn't intend to do, and later on sort of regretted. And she was unhappy about that, as any girl would be who felt she'd been completely had.

The reason I think that it wasn't completely voluntary or something, though, is because clearly, she wanted to see if Jon really was sorry, so she gave him a test to see whether he was just saying that because HE'D been coerced into apologizing for something he didn't really feel sorry for.

But he stayed, which means he either really did feel that way, or he knew what she was trying to pull. I don't think he knew, though, because she was pretty convincing.

Mainly what I'm saying is, if she felt she had to test him to see if he was sorry, clearly, she felt he had something to be sorry about.

"In the immortal words of The Doors, 'The time to hesitate is through.'" - Lucas

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] snojah 18 years ago

I think she said that to prove a point. Somewhere deep inside, she did mean it and she said it because it was basically the same thing John was doing when he admitted to her that he rape her and tried to apoligize for it. Thats why John was speechless. There just is no way to apoligize for raping someone or in her case, wanting him to suffer a horrible death. At least thats what I got from it.

As to did he rape her? I don't know. Maybe she was just angry that John only wanted sex instead of love. Maybe she was hoping for more after but was devastated when they never spoke to each other again.

reply

[–] balehead74 18 years ago

I believe she was raped. I wasn't sure for a long time, but when she said to Jon "...like when you put your hand over my mouth? Oh, I let everyone do that!" (or something like that) in a sarcastic tone, I felt convinced, because Jon did not deny it. And keeping someone quiet while you hold her arms back and penetrates isn't really nice now, is it? But they have really done a good job at keeping the viewers uncertain. I was immediately captured by this film yesterday on TV. It was on Channel 1, and I didn't even continue zapping! (Which was my plan when I turned the TV on...)

reply

[–] jp-rhyne 18 years ago

As a rape victim I always felt she was also a victim. The way she is awkward at first and then angry and then sadistically plays with them, is a reasonable response to the events. I feel she was definitely raped because her emotions were what I still feel as a recovering victim. It's a long process to recover from that.

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] pmdawn 17 years ago

john fessed up. He comes back to apologize and he seems truly sorry. it's on the tape.

unless amy had really good acting classes, her tears and 'breakdown' made me think she was indeed raped. she was in denial, she was playing with them, confusing them at all times, but that scene seemed real.

but then she said that she loved him, and i believed her.

so, amy loves john, but he rapes her anyway. vince was right all along, but it wasn't such a big deal to the other two i guess, he was the one who needed to hear all that.

reply

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] gareth_graham 18 years ago

i definitely thinked she was raped. why would she say those things if she wasn't raped. she had a crush, and he took advantage. then she got pregnant.

That is a critial point that many people miss. If you listen carefully she says: "I was fat in college too. for different reasons."

fat in college , raped right before she went to college?

It is very possible that she may have even had his child. No wonder she's pissed!

A film should be like a rock in the shoe

reply

[–] jmcolyer 17 years ago

Wow I totally missed the pregnancy thing...good call. I was sure she was raped, then I thought maybe she just wanted him to go to hell because she loved him and he didn't return her love. With the pregnancy angle it could still be either...she could be mad because he raped her and she got pregnant, or she could be mad because he didn't love her and wasn't there for her when she was pregnant. Tough call.

reply

[–] hulahancho 17 years ago

i just watched the film a few days ago and i never thought about the pregnancy thing. Now I thought about it, could she have an abortion after she learned that she was pregnant? u know she was saying things like "I hope a metal enters u in and out till ur organs are torn apart" or sth. That sounds like what an abortionist does. I dont know..

reply

[–] rootsrockreggae 17 years ago

"why, because you had your hand over my mouth?"

based on that i'm calling it rape.

reply

[–] MyDarkStar 17 years ago

I just watched it tonight & didn't even think of a pregnancy when she said that.

reply

[–] grantdempsey 17 years ago

First of all, I think the ambiguity of the exact nature of what happened is more important to the film and to the characters than what actually did happen.

Personally, though, I believe it was probably indeed somewhere on the border between "rough" sex and actual rape. Not a clear-cut and fully deliberate rape, but something murky enough not even the two of them could be certain what had happened after it happened, especially since they had been drunk at the time.

The mere possibility he had gotten carried away while drunk and committed date rape was enough to make Jon Salter feel guilty when he suddenly had to think back to it again, and ultimately overcompensate by pushing for it "definitely" having been rape for the sake of being able to apologize.

Amy Randall herself admitted she was completely in love with him at the time. I feel her "crush" on him caused her to want to believe it was not rape and whatever roughness occurred was either under control or something she allowed to happen, and she deluded herself into being certain, despite it being just as cloudy in her memory as well. His insistence revived the whole issue for her, however, and forced her to confront it again, which got her reacting as strangely and inconsistently as she did throughout her time in the film.

reply

[–] dxben99 17 years ago

grantdempsey, that is almost exactly what I am thinking.
I just watched the movie last weekend and I was sort of confused. For most part of the film, I was sure, John did not rape her, since drugged up Vincent was making these accusations in the beginning and acted very deluded and stuff. John was like "WTF? We had sex. What do you think happened?" and he was very believable with that.

Then at one point he thinks he did rape her and even insists on it. Her behavior in the movie does not help very much to understand what really happened.

She definitely tests the two of them with the faked call to the police, to see how they react.
Is it because she knows, she was raped? Then, why f--k Vincent over (he did flush a pretty large amount of drugs down the toilet....and he really liked those ones), when John is the one she should be furious about?

Or maybe she is screwing with them, because she realizes Vincent to be a paranoid drug addict, and John to be an unstable guy who thinks he may have raped her (what does that tell about his personality?), and is just plain pissed, the two called her there for that, and the call was basically to end that unnerving conversation in that motel room.

Or maybe she was in love with John in highschool and felt used after that party and this is her way of getting revenge. However, this would mean that Vincent was in on the plan. She couldn't have possibly planned this alone. But Vincent sacrificing his drugs for that? Doesn't sound very realistic.

Then again, maybe she screws with them because that's her sick little sense of humor. ;)

reply

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] facialgal 17 years ago

In my opinion she was upset because he admitted to raping her when she hoped their encounter meant something to him. She said she was in love with him, so she probably wanted to sleep with him. Then he admits it was rape and meant nothing.

reply

[–] channel_dunlap 17 years ago

Yeah, I think she was more upset that it didn't mean anything to him, and that plus the way they were talking about it all out in the open and behind her back led to her anger and 'revenge'.

But putting your hand over somebody's mouth, or pinning someone's arms down, does not automatically mean rape. Hell, I almost always pin a girl's arms down at some point, and neither I, nor they, have ever considered it rape.

reply

[–] jamiewharton 17 years ago

I believe he did.

She says she loved him, and I believe that. She delivers that line straight, it's not a riddle or a question, it's a fact.

Because she loved him that night she has probably overlooked and forgiven the fact that he pushed her further than she wanted things to go. He was just after a one night stand, but she was pinning her hopes on more.

But then when she didn't get what she wanted in the long run she's blotted it from her mind due to the pain of the rejection as well as having been raped. Time has blurred the lines so they are both comfortable with the idea nothing bad happened.

When she realises she's been cornered and forced to deal with these demons again she reacts aggressivley and starts playing games with them.

Hehe, like someone else said, you can talk this over for hours. Brilliant film.

reply

[–] Eyesore_is_cool 17 years ago

I believe he raped her, excuse me but the description "I pinned her arms back and stuck my dick in" doesn't apply to consensual sex, unless maybe it was 'rough' like he says so many times, but to me it just seems absurd that a person having sex for the first time would want it in that way

I'm sorry this isn't an in depth psychoanalysis of the characters but to me it just doesn't make sense, concretely, that it could not be a rape. There's still some ambiguity obviously, and I respect when people think that it didn't actually happen, but I'm just not convinced

reply

[–] zcid47 17 years ago

my opinion is that Jon probably was kinda rough with her.. nothing vey important but like he is a really insecure person he finally convinced himself for all that Vince said to him that he raped her. i figured that he didn't raped her when Amy saw him at the first time she didn't seem strange or any unusual reaction actually she was kinda happy to see him because she was in love of him.. probably he pinned her arms back maybe because he was nervous but it wasn't any traumathic for her because she loved him.. what is clear is that in the hotel room she palys with both.

..

reply

[–] zcid47 17 years ago

and by the way.. Uma Thurman and Ethan Hawke were absolutely great in tis movie.. they're excellent actors.

..

reply

[–] suckerdwsp316 17 years ago

Oh this is so elementary. He DIDN'T RAPE HER, Okay?? John only said that because Vince brought him to a boiling point. It wasn't an authentic confession at all. It was almost forced out of him.

C'mon, we all went to high school, we all got really drunk at parties, we all knew girls and guys we wanted to *beep* ... and that should be sufficient enough of an answer for a topic like this

reply

[–] anonfactor 16 years ago

The film is purposely ambiguous but the playwright has said that the movie isn't about rape but the disclosure of John and Vincent's true characters, which suggests that it never took place. I believe she wasn't raped, she was pissed that what she thought was an important moment (losing her virginity) didn't mean anything to John and that he couldn't even remember it well enough to know it was consensual, like if she couldn't have made that decision. That is what she is trying to make him suffer for (and possibly an abortion).

"You wouldn't hit a women with a baby, would you?"
"No, I'd use a brick."

reply

[–] AmorVomnia7 16 years ago

"didn't mean anything to John and that he couldn't even remember it well enough to know it was consensual, like if she couldn't have made that decision."
- jcarrenol-1

It's actually a tough decision to make. She loved him, but she could have been resisting the rough-styled sex she was getting. I mean... It was both their first times.. And they were drunk.. It doesn't get anymore confusing than that.

"If it weren't for pickpockets, I'd have no sex life at all."

reply

[–] Pimothy 16 years ago

The way I read the going-ons of the film was that on the night, Amy was in love with Jon and he got with her because she was available to him and they were drunk. I think that maybe she was happy to have sex with him, possibly even planning it, but that when they actually got started, she found it unpleasurable (especially not uncommon for virgin girls) and maybe realised that Jon wasn't in love with her, adding to her wanting to stop. At this point, Jon may have forced it further, which might be considered rape, depending on the extent of her experience. I think it was more the way that it happened than the occurrence of the sex itself that made her doubt her consent. Afterwards, she may have viewed it as a gray area case, considering she wanted to be with Jon (making out or more) but that it went further than she wanted.
After, she appears to have dealt with it as "I didn't really want it, I found it painful, but to a level I instigated it and it could have been what I wanted." Upon confrontation, however, she realises due to Jon's insistence that he raped her that maybe it was rape after all. I think her outburst about her wanting him to die was more orientated at him using her, not loving her, the fact it was painful and a feeling of indignity that he can only be bothered to apologise when it is forced out of him and she is right there - in her eyes driving home again that he didn't care - rather than her genuinely wanting him to suffer and die. She is definately resentful to a certain level, but in her own mind not fully an innocent rape victim.
Her game at the end with calling the cops, seemed to me an attempt at getting a final reading on how sorry Jon truely is. His saying he's sorry is largely worthless to her as words come easy, whereas him being prepared to face the penalty for rape shows he is truely remorseful. His remorsefulness, coupled with her perception that he wasn't fully guilty then makes her forgive him.

As for Amy's actions towards Vince, these seem to be a cheap revenge at his having perceived, and still perceiving, her as his former property. She sees he felt, and still feels, he should have been the one she had sex with, and she resents him for these feelings and simply gets him back for it through the supposed phone call to the police. It is also a show that she doesn't see him as the "good guy", as someone remarked above.

Regarding Vince's motivation, I think he was motivated by egocentrism and possessiveness. He felt she should have had sex with him or, if not him, nobody. In his egocentrism, he figured that she couldn't possibly have had consented to sex with anybody other than him, and thus he came to the conclusion that Jon raped Amy.

On the whole, Amy is the one who seems to have moved on most. She was hurt and to a certain extent still is hurt, but it barely affects her and is mostly a broken heart and bad memory.
Jon, meanwhile, still carries the guilt he feels for his actions with him, but has mostly moved on until Vince brings Amy up again.
Vince, however, is largely unchanged and in the end a worse person for it. It seems to me Amy might actually have forgiven Jon, but not Vince, although I'm not quite sure I am willing to go that far. But whereas Jon has made a mistake, realises he made a mistake and repents for it, Vince's error was firmly embedded in a character flaw he still has not been able to grow out off.

Oh and one last thing, it has been suggested above that the sex with Jon got Amy pregnant and that she had an abortion (in their opinion suggested by the statement of "I was fat in college too, for different reasons." and her outburst to Jon reflecting an abortionist's practice with metal rods and such). I think this is pure conjecture. The second thing about the abortionist, seems to me utter nonsense and the first highly doubtful (partly because she says "during college" rather than "for a small part of college," suggesting a longer thing than 9 months with the summer holidays subtracted. She may just have been put off boys for a while and indulged in eating lots as a way of making her feel better. This suggestion is also complete conjecture, but I make it as a balancing statement: I don't think there is any genuine support for any theory on what made her fat.

Anyhoo, that's my take on the film. Sorry, it became a bit longer than I intended...

reply