Nicole Wallace


How many episodes of CI were centered on her?

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5, and one in a different show called Jo (but what official canon that holds is unclear)



And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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I am very confused and totally fascinated by the whole "Jo" thing. Is it really LOCI based? I know the producer is the same but really??

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Please explain Jo, thanks.

Swing away, Merrill....Merrill, swing away...

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The detectives are investigating a murder and take the prints of a woman who's their top suspect. Guess what those results come back as?


And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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I love all of the Nicole episodes. She is a very compelling character and a great duelist for Goren.

SPOILER ALERT!

I can't understand why they killed her off. I was in disbelief when I saw that episode and was expecting another episode showing how she had bribed the lab that identified her DNA. One would think the producers would keep her alive......in case they wanted to remount the show or make a movie version. I wonder if things behind the scenes (concerning Olivia D'Abo) led to her character's demise? I loved the classroom scene where she and Goren discuss Moby Dick, and so many other memorable scenes. And it was so morally confusing when she appeared sympathetic in scenes, when you know she's a monster.

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Saw the posts about this and had to watch all 8 episodes thru Nicole's appearance.

Pure gold! Same fire and slippery character, and still pretty hot! So glad I saw this earlier today - thanks!

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Too many. That story arc went on way too long. I got tired of the Nicole Wallace stories. The writers were way off on that one. And then the writers had Goren's biological father a serial killer, his mentor kills Nicole, and Nicole kills Goren's brother. They really jumped the shark on that one.

That whole story line was ridiculous.

I wished they had shown anything about Goren's love life. They showed some personal moments about Logan, on L&O and CI, but nothing about Goren. Not even a date. The viewers (me) would have wanted to see a more personal side, and see the type of woman he would be with.

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And then the writers had Goren's biological father a serial killer, his mentor kills Nicole, and Nicole kills Goren's brother. They really jumped the shark on that one.


Yes I totally agree. They went WAAAAAAAY overboard with that! Too much absurd unbelievably ridiculous drama with that story line. The whole mental anguish he was going through with his mother being hospitalized and schizophrenic, and his brother being transient and addicted to drugs was enough to be believable. They really went out into the deep end with everything beyond that.

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"I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way"

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I agree. The drama with his mother and brother was enough suffering for Goren's character. The writers didn't need to do the rest of that to him.

They should have written at least one episode featuring Goren and a girlfriend, in the earlier years when he still looked good. Eames had an episode about finding the killer of her husband, Logan had an episode about his girlfriend who was a nurse in a prison, and Logan had another episode about dating his neighbor across the hall. But no episode about Goren with a girlfriend?

Even on L&O SVU, Benson was shown dating and having boyfriends. SVU was a much better written show. Better character development, great storylines, and an occasional glimpse into the personal lives of the detectives. The writers could have done all of that with Criminal Intent, especially since D'Onofrio had such a huge female fan base.

Oh well, it's all over now. I didn't watch the show when it aired, so I'm catching up now. The first six years were great, but I was disappointed with the last 4 years.

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Yeah I agree, it would've been nice to see them give him a genuine love interest. Everything in his life was so heavy and negative most of the time, it would've been nice for them to give him something positive for awhile. NY state itself is full of beautiful places, I always thought it'd've been nice if he'd met some girl from outside the city, through some normal investigation. Somewhere he'd have to drive awhile to get to, some small town girl that was nothing like anyone he'd meet in the city. But then I'm a romantic at heart so I always think of such things

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

"I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way"

(¯`v´¯)
`•.¸.•´
¸.•´¸.•´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•´

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If they'd have gone the route of romance, i would have definetly stopped watching.

Swing away, Merrill....Merrill, swing away...

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Yes, mooosefeathers. It would have turned the show into a soap opera. I disagree with you all about Nicole Wallace. It was in those episodes we saw a different side of Goren with outstanding acting done by Vincent D'Onofrio. I was sad to see that case end.


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The original hook of CI was that it was from the criminal's POV. Although they did look at Eames' husband and her kidnapping and Logan's girlfriends they were in the context of a crime. We only found out about Ross and Rodgers through the very subtle sharing an elevator in evening clothes. This formula was not big with the personal.

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That's my point. It would have been interesting seeing a glimpse of Goren's personal life within the context of a crime, like Logan's episodes. Those two episodes of Logan's were two of my favorites.

None of the L&O shows are character driven. The shows are all about the plot and the action on the job. But the occasional 4 second glimpse into the detectives lives is interesting. Like when Goren was shown having dinner with his niece's family, and looking at the photo at the end of the episode.

The writers could have shown Goren getting out of bed with a woman in the middle of the night to take a call about a case. He could just get up, give her a kiss, and say I'll call you later. Something like that. Just a few seconds. Like Ross and Rodgers in the elevator.

On SVU, Benson was shown getting out of bed with one of the detectives in her squad. It was an interesting sidenote. There were several references to Olivia's dating life. The viewers became aware that she dated many men and was not alone all the time.

Goren was a young, attractive man. The writers could have included a few seconds here and there about Bobby with a woman. Just like the other detectives. That's all I'm trying to say.

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I disagree; actors are taught to use every tool in their arsenal to put a character across and looks are certainly a very important tool. Where it might be shallow to discuss an average person's looks an actors' commodity, the thing they sell to make a living, is how they look and act and respond and interact. They ask for comment by choosing their profession.

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Thank you!! That's what I'm trying to say. I would never pick apart someone's appearance in my personal life. But, part of Goren's character was to be attractive and charming. He let us down in the last 4 seasons. Also, Vincent's character in Full Metal Jacket required a great deal of weight gain for the character. Again, the actor needs to look the part.

If Goren is supposed to be attractive and charm the ladies, Vincent let us down in the last four seasons. As you said, an actor needs to use everything they have to play the part.

I like Vincent, but I just think he could have done a better job with the last four seasons of the show.

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But you misinterpret what I'm saying. I merely said that we have the right to comment on appearances because that's part of the presentation. If an actor's looks are part of their arsenal then that's true regardless of how they look. Goren's character had an arc-it started when he was 40 and more youthful looking and charming. With each revelation about his character he became more and more trapped-emotionally, situationally and even in his own body. Now I'm quite certain that wasn't a plan but it worked for them.

But, part of Goren's character was to be attractive and charming.

If Goren is supposed to be attractive and charm the ladies, Vincent let us down in the last four seasons.


I think you're making a leap based on personal preference. I personally don't think Goren gave a damn what he looked like and would be astonished to think that he was "supposed to be attractive and charm the ladies". He was supposed to solve crimes and have Eames' back. Pretty wasn't part of his mind set.

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What you say makes a lot of sense. I understand, and I realize I am over analyzing this character.

I'm recovering from an injury (nothing serious), and I have way too much time on my hands. I'm finished with the CI dvd's, and now I am moving on to SVU. I'll try to tone it down and not over analyze. The L&O shows are great TV.

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love CI watch it everytime its on hope you feel better quick

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I appreciate your post. It's interesting to read posts criticizing an actor's appearance as it's usually the opposite -IMDB is riddled with page after page of men criticizing the appearance of actresses-generally because they fail to meet some highly subjective, ridiculous standard of feminine beauty. The majority of people will not escape a change in their appearance in the decade that spans forty to fifty (even with plastic surgery). We are so accustomed to seeing actors with plastic surgery that we no longer accept the natural appearance that comes with aging-additionally we demand that actresses look a certain way and then maintain that for as long as humanly possible. Frankly, I think it's boring-I love movies pre-1980's as (with some exceptions) they're filled with people that look real not cut out of plastic molds.

Cheers

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SVU was a much better written show.


I would disagree but that's just my personal opinion. There were some writing breakdowns where both developments and dialogue were over the top on Criminal Intent but I felt the average show was more innovative than SVU. It's certainly not a "woman's show" but I would expect women would like SVU more. It has a much bigger role for the female detective and a greater focus on the feelings of the victims.

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I don't want to criticize CI, but as a woman I do like SVU better, for exactly the reasons you mention. You have very good observations.

I really enjoyed CI for the first 5-6 years, and I'm really enjoying the first 10-12 years of SVU. When Stabler left, the show is still great, but I liked it better with Stabler and Benson.

Both shows are great TV. I also like the first 5 years of L&O, with a young Chris Noth. Excellent! Logan had 3 partners in 5 years? Well written, intense storylines, and very much appreciated.

I bought all the DVD's for CI, the first 5 years of L&O, and season one of SVU. That should keep me busy for awhile!

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They should have written at least one episode featuring Goren and a girlfriend, in the earlier years when he still looked good.


Deep down I think he considered Eames the closest thing he had to a girlfriend, so he never actively sought one once they became partners. Of course he'd never act on it (except for that one kiss on the cheek the second episode of season 9), but relationships can be more than just sex or even PDAs.

There's also Nicole Wallace to consider. I'm sure he considered her...SOMETHING important to him.

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Bobby stated in his therapy sessions that he viewed Eames as a sister. I definitely saw a brother/sister dynamic between them. I never got any romantic vibe between them at all.

I see the Bobby/Eames relationship as a close friendship. Romantically speaking, Eames was not Bobby's type. Bobby made comments about beautiful women many times. A short, tough little cop like Eames would not be Bobby's romantic choice. As far as relationships go, Bobby would be way out of Eames' league.

Nicole Wallace? No way. Bobby felt contempt and disgust for her. He did feel sympathy for her horrible childhood, but she was a prostitute and a serial killer. She outsmarted him and humiliated him. She was his white whale and he wanted to take her down. Bobby is a man of fierce integrity and strong moral values. He was not attracted to Nicole, he pitied her.

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Nicole Wallace? No way. Bobby felt contempt and disgust for her. He did feel sympathy for her horrible childhood, but she was a prostitute and a serial killer. She outsmarted him and humiliated him. She was his white whale and he wanted to take her down. Bobby is a man of fierce integrity and strong moral values. He was not attracted to Nicole, he pitied her.


I wasn't saying its an attraction, which is why I didn't use that word. But she was something to him that he couldn't quite quantify. My point in mentioning both is that that particular "need" to have a significant other was fulfilled to him. Even though it wasn't sexual nor about attraction in either case.

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I always thought of Nicole as the only one capable of keeping his interest, and I think there was some sexual tension there. Perhaps I am projecting my own feelings because she was hot!

Loved L&O, L&O:CI but only watched L&O:SVU for a year or so because I couldn't stand Stabler. Don't know if it was overacting or his character was so out of control. Either way, he struck me as an a$$hole.

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I think you are right about Nicole. I definitely see a sexual tension. I am projecting MY feelings because HE is so hot haha!

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I was always intrigued by and enjoyed the Nicole Wallace episodes. (My wife can't stand them.) I think it's completely reasonable that such a great detective, such an adept character should have a nemesis, someone they don't easily triumph over. Patrick Jane had his Red John, Sherlock Holmes had his Moriarty, Sheldon Cooper had his Wil Wheaton (until Wil won him over and they became friends of a sort).

What attracted us to the show was the weird way Det. Goren would get inside the perp's head and more or less cow him/her into submission with the force of his personality. The fact that it took three episodes, three times for these characters strongly interacting, for him to really get to her showed the strength of her own personality and made her an interesting opponent for him.

Just like Goren himself, Nicole Wallace was an outlier.

That said, I agree the serial killer biological father plot line seemed extreme. As I. I. Rabi said when the muon was discovered, "Who ordered that?"

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Not about Nicole, but about love interest. In one episode, Goren was attracted to a killer, a woman who was obsessed with a former lover. When she was caught, she pleaded for help from him, saying that she had felt something from him, or the like. He says something like, "You weren't supposed to feel it," intimating that he had felt a connection. But that's the only episode I remember anything romantic happening for him.

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Ah, yes, Season 4, Episode 1 "Semi-Detached"

One of my favorite exchanges in the whole series.

Nelda Carlson: Robert, don't you care for me at all? You do. I saw it.
Detective Robert Goren: I didn't mean for you to see it.

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I also remember when the Hugh Hefner type guy came in the station with his "girls", Goren looking at the women with an interested eye and head tilt!

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agreed! i loved the chemistry between Nicole Wallace and Goren. sure, that story line went on and on and eventually became tiresome and too bizarre, but i loved the interaction between those two characters; just the way she said his name - Bobby - still sends chills.

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I'm not saying his love life should have been a central theme. Just one or two episodes featuring a potential love interest like Logan had with two episodes. Just a small glimpse into his personal life within the context of a grisly story (like Logan).

Sorry to disagree, ladeemarie, but he looks like a completely different person in the last four seasons.

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Kerry757-Agree with you on the looks thing: Goren (and VDO) doesn't even look like the same person from season 1 to season 10. I'm not saying it's a bad thing but it's true. And whatever your preference, I don't think he looks more healthy.

I think in a lot of ways they kind of juvenilized Bobby. They had him dealing with parent issues and sibling rivalry; there was no room for examining the relationships he mentions in "Trophy Wine". And the most important relationship he has left is Eames who he says he regards as a sister. When that platonic feeling is put to the question he becomes very angry and goes on the attack. I don't think he was adult enough to have any kind of relationship but sexual because he never sorted out all the crap all three parents left him for a legacy.

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I think Goren's life was his detective work. He read and studied a lot. He may have been interested in women but they weren't his priority and he didn't have time for them. I think his mother thought Eames was his girlfriend because she was probably the only woman he talked about given his dedication to his job.

I have a question. Was his niece Frank's daughter? I assume Frank was divorced?

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She's presumably from the Brady side somewhere. Frank does have a son.


And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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I'm still confused about the niece and I don't know what his Brady side is. Probably something I just don't remember. I thought that a niece would be a child of your sibling or your spouse's sibling. I remember Frank's son in the episode when Goren got himself put into prison in order to help his nephew.

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Mark Ford Brady (from the episode Endgame) is his real father.


And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

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Just my opinion, but I think the niece was a writing mistake or glitch. In that episode, they gave him a niece and even had him looking at a photo together with her family but never mentioned them again for the rest of the series. Never mentioned a sibling besides Frank, never mentioned Frank having a daughter, etc. so I think the writers changed direction for his character later and never addressed the mystery niece and her family. I don't think it was a relative via his serial killer biological father either because I don't visualize his character wanting to hang out with the serial killer father's family, and again, it was never mentioned in any episodes that the serial killer had a family on that Goren had anything to do with his family.

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