When Kirsty made her deal with Pinhead(the five souls in
exchange for her soul)did she just shoot the other four
like she did Trevor or did the cenobites have a role in
their deaths like we saw when Trevor was in hell?
Thanks in advance.
This is who we are
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The reason I asked was there were certain scenes and dialogue
that contradicted each other.
Like when Kirsty first makes the deal with Pinhead and offers
him the five souls in exchange for hers, he says to her,"You'll
bring these souls to me yourself". I figured since the cenobites
had been summoned and not sent back, they were still around and
Kirsty lured her victims to the cenobites and they did their thing
and then she killed them.
But yet, when Pinhead was explaining the deal to Trevor, he made a
comment like "he was surprised by her handiwork".
So it seems it could go either way, I guess.
This is who we are
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Oh on the contrary, I don't think that once you are dead and torn, it ends there. On the contrary, I think that the tearing up was one way of getting there, but the joy of this film is that someone can be sent there and then receive eternal torment (or is it pleasure? :P) and in such a way that it can be evil and gruesome to behold whilst still adhering to the mythology of the Hellraiser series.
I especially think that the deal between Kirsty and Pinhead is a crucial one, its a case where Pinhead gets more souls to torture for free. Genius
Sebastian
"You cant drown, you're immortal!"
www.horrormoviefans.com, Where the Big Dogs play
Not unless they interfere in Hell's design, LC.
However, the five souls did not interfere with Hell's plot.
Hopelessly in love with Uma Thurman, Maggie Gyllenhaal, and Emmy Rossum
But we never know what REALLY happens. I think the clues are there though. It's easy enough to assume Kirsty did somehow trick them into solving the Lament Configuaration or at least deliver them to the Cenobites. The Cenobites could easily have taken the bodies to Hell at some stage... however I'm not going to get into this too much now but I am preparing a "paper" of sorts on the events of Hellseeker and the hidden clues within it that came to me on my recent re-watch as part of a series marathon.
- Scarecrow
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"There is no Good. There is no Evil. There is only Flesh".
She's darker, she's no longer innocent and she's on the path of becoming more "corrupt". But she did what she did to a) save her own skin and b) for revenge.
- Scarecrow
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Her husband, his three favourite women he was having an affair with and the one who he conspired to kill Kirsty with. Her husband Trevor and his friend were probably aksing for it but the women were pretty innocent.
- Scarecrow
one women was a hooker....
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No she wasn't.
One washis neighbour, one was his boss from work and the other was an alternative medicine therapist.
- Scarecrow
None of then were hookers, and even if one was, that would *still* mean she was innocent.
shareIf hookers were guilty by nature, it would contradict the Hellraiser mythos. From what I remember, it was not about fear of women's sexuality or just plain sexuality being bad (Though the first one kept on Barker's gay vision of women's sexuality) — well as far as I can tell, since I'm not gay myself, nor anti-gay, on the contrary, I'm a homophobic-phobic, but I digress…). It was about unlocking mysteries through pain and becoming more than human. In fact, the main character is not guilty of anything : we have so many dream/reality reversals that one might wonder if his alleged infidelity, of what he is absolved in the beginning, is real or not. It's just sloppy writing made mildly interesting by good realisation.
I agree with the one who saw it as a "Jacob's Ladder" imitation. It's not a bad movie compared to some in the franchise, and other DTV stuff, but it could have been better without the gratuitous Hellraiser tag… IMHO of course !
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The last scene (Kirsty identifying her hubby at the river, talking to the detective, etc.) is by all indications "real". It wouldn't make much sense for that to be in her hubby's dead mind, IMO.
In that scene the murders and the gun are discussed. Each of the victims was tortured and shot to death. Cenobites getting souls in this fashion does go against the previous mythos since, as Frank pretty explicitly put it, "C'mon Kirsty, when you're dead, you're *beep* dead!"
I guess it could be rationalized not to be a contradiction but not as far as I can tell. By all indications people taken by the Cenobites are not only not dead, but effectively immortal (so they can experience the stimulation of their FLESH forever). They don't leave a dead body behind to be found by police (like Kirsty's victims), they take it with them. That's the point!
/I bring you Sooth/
http://soothunleashed.blogspot.com/
"It goes against the Hellraiser mythos."
Why not say it adds to the Hellraiser mythos? At least the mythos sustained by the films.
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Well, which Hellraiser films do you consider as the bastions of Hellraiser canon?
In Hellraiser 1, the Cenobites let Kirsty go even though she had solved the box, because of a deal she made with them. Also, in Hellraiser 1, Julia was killed, and suddenly she belonged to Leviathan, even though she had not solved the box. And in Hellraiser 2, the wicked stepmother was allowed to come back to life in order to bring souls to Leviathan. She brought back a soul that had not solved the box. In Hellseeker, Kirsty was allowed to be left alone, because she would bring souls to Leviathan. Once again, they let her go because of a deal. And like Julia, she brought souls that had not solved the box.
In Hellraiser 2, it is revealed that it is desire that calls the Cenobites, not just a pair of hands solving a Lament Configuration, which is why the Cenobites spared Jennifer (the one who did the solving of the box) - she did not desire the treatment of the Cenobites. However, did Kirsty really desire to be pained/pleasured by infernal beings when she messed around with the box in Hellraiser 1? I hardly think she was as messed up or as intrigued by the depraved as, say, Frank, or the human Pinhead.
So, slight inconsitencies were there from the get-go, and the solving of the box didn't always seem all that important, even early on in the series. Overall, the scenario in Hellseeker isn't that unfamiliar, and I see no blatant contradictions that are worse than any other ones in the series.
Still, it was quite some time ago since I saw Hellseeker, and I only have the first three on DVD. So, if there's something important I've missed or misunderstood, I wouldn't mind being corrected.
good points baalze :)
Most of what you've put are down to misunderstandings, dude.
You CAN make deals with cenobites, sure. But they didn't let her go. The dealw as "Maybe" and they decided maybe not and tried to take her at the end anyway. Make a deal with a cenobite, you've got to look at the fine print and get it word perfect.
Julia wasn't just killed. Frank attacked her sure, but we THEN see her on the bed, holding the box and chained. The obvious answer being that, still half-alive, she solved the box and was taken to Hell.
Now the Kirsty / souls thing IS a problem. It's one reason people say hellseeker doesn't stick to the rules. But then you must consider we never see what happens to them, only Trevor. And we know Trevor has already desired the Box open using Kirsty (in the room, as with Channard). But the others, they may have opened the Box, we'll never know what happened in reality with each of them.
In HR2 Tiffany (not Jennifer) had NO desire. Channard had tortured her and messed with ehr head to the point she was barely fgunctioing on an emotional level. She simply solved puzzles... that was what she did. No desire, just simple, ordered, puzzle solving.
Of course, Kirsty DOES have desires. She's human. She has hatred of Julia, feeligns of lust, relationship with ehr father, we see in later films her potential violence. She has desire within her, the right kind of desire, if she didn't, she couldn't open the box. You don't have to be messed up, you just have to have the write desires and lusts within you.
- Scarecrow
(www.cenobite.com)
Julia brought Channard who DID solve the Box in a way. He used Tiffany. "It is not hands that clal us... it is desire". She was his instrument but it was his desire and longing thta summoned them, Tiffany was just a blank slate he used.
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We never see any of the other four victims in reality though, as the whole film is almost entirly a mind trip. The only clue we're given is that bodies are found, supposedly with a gun shot wound. We know NOTHING of the circumstance of their death but we DO see at least one 'mind trip' that shows Surgeon/Bound suffocating Gwen. It could easily be that somehow Kirsty delivered the Box to the victims, "giving" them to the Cenobites... but the bodies were left and sho as part of the overall plan to frame Trevor.
This would certainly be interesting idea to work on as the film ends with Kirsty carrying the box.... almost beocming a puzzle guardian herself???
- Scarecrow
Some interesting points here everyone.
I do not think the people that Kirsty killed were claimed by the cenobites in the traditional way. Perhaps the cenobits agreed to let her to kill the 5 souls to increase her sins, for when they finally get her, her suffering will be that much greater.
I think though Trevor's soul does. For example his desire got Kirsty to open the box in the first place, Kirsty says something along the lines of, "this is what you want?" I think this would put a "mark" on him in the same way that Channard was "marked" by getting Tiffiny to solve it in the 2nd movie.
Just a theory that popped up in my head, probably filled with some holes.
I do not think the people that Kirsty killed were claimed by the cenobites in the traditional way. Perhaps the cenobits agreed to let her to kill the 5 souls to increase her sins, for when they finally get her, her suffering will be that much greater.
I think though Trevor's soul does. For example his desire got Kirsty to open the box in the first place, Kirsty says something along the lines of, "this is what you want?" I think this would put a "mark" on him in the same way that Channard was "marked" by getting Tiffiny to solve it in the 2nd movie.
I agree...even if they were all in on it with him to kill her (it's been awhile since I've seen it, so I don't remember if that was the case) I can't see her giving anyone else to Pinhead after everything she'd been through already.
Still...why did she have to go marry a guy exactly like Uncle Frank, after all that? Sheesh!
I just watched this movie. Excellent addition to the Hellraiser mythos and one of the best films in the series. I didn't see anybody state this in the thread, so here goes ... the director mentions that Kirsty killed all five people to deliver their souls to Pinhead. It's on the commentary track.
shareBut the writer says that the box was involved. in the end, it doesn't matter what either of them say as it's not part of the film. What matters is how it fits into the overall story and that's part of what fandom does. In hellraiser you have to open the Box to go to Hell so it's logical somehow Kirsty used the Box in her "deliverance".
- Scarecrow
The way I see it is this(regarding the murders only).
The Cenobites did not get them in the way they would get someone who opened the box. The five would not be subjected to the machinations of the Cenobites since they either 1) did not open the box themselves 2) there was no 'seeking' if they did. If they solved the Configuration at all it was under duress.
Kirsty played into Pinheads hand, feeding the legion of Hell five souls to torment, but not by the Cenobites we have met in the series.
But opening a puzzle is pretty much the only way to go to the Labyrinth. We never see the reality of what happened, and what manipulations could have occured. But if they simply died then they're dead and that wouldn't help anyone, Kirsty ahd to get them to open the schism somehow, or open the schism herself. Hellseeker is vague enough for it to work.
- Scarecrow
The Hellbound Web Hellraiser Forum - www.cenobite.com/
I can agree with that, it definitely is vague enough for it to work, but I just can't shake the feeling of how Dr. Channard "opened" the box without actually opening it in the second movie.
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