Ararat will be aired on national Turkish tv channel "kanalturk" tomorrow. Is there any turkish opinion about this issue on any armenian channel or on any kind of media? Nope and I`m sure there wont be. Can you freely talk about this issue in france, switzerland and defend turkish opinion. Nope, you can be prisoned for that because there is a law in these countries against it. So where is the democracy and freedom of speech? Whom has it?
sharewell said, dear onur
shareYou have to understand that Turkey may have some human rights issues but it is the only place that every human has equal rights. There's more freedom of speech than people give credit for and it's a lot more than more 'civilized' european countries
shareThis was the point what I wanted to relate
shareThe reason that Turkish denial doesn't get coverage is not because it's benig repressed (b/c it's not), it's because it's baseless and illogical--same reason that Holocaust denial doesn't get coverage. I will tell you where there is no democracy--Turkey. People get jailed for exposing the genocide. Of course the denialists are losing the battle every day, and it's not going to last forever. We Armenians achieved criminalizing denial of Genocide in Europe, we will achieve the same in Turkey. As your original post shows, and as recent conferences in Turkey show (despite threats of prosecution), more and more Turks refuse to be kept silent about the truth.
shareIt would be better if you could save your hatred onto a more political forum instead of a movie evaluation maillist, if you deem it necessary my friend. I dont hate you, and dont understand why do you..
sharethe 'genocide' is the only way to keep the armenian diaspora as a whole and together. this is a lie they have to believe in. but they don't know the reality that they don't need it to be a nation. they will always be sentenced to rage and hate to the past as they keep believing it. i suggest them to free their minds and get a life...
shareIt's good that you admit that there is repression in Turkey. You seem to suggest though that people are denied basic rights on an equal basis. There is some truth to it:
- Any person in Turkey can be jailed for talking about the Genocide (prosecutors recently even threatened Prime Minister Erdogan. That shows the level of denialistic/ultranationalistic/fanatic insanity in Turkey
- Any person can be jailed for talking about Cyprus, Kurdish rights, genocides against Greeks, Assyrians, and other Christians committed by Turkey
There is still serious inequality in the way repression is applied. For example:
- Kurds get jailed for talking Kurdish
- No non-Muslim is allowed to hold high government or military position
- Churches, especially Armenian ones, are subjected to constant abuse by the government, including their lands taken away from them
- The government is doing everything to close the Greek Church of Constantinople (the original Orthodox church)
- countless ancient Armeninian monuments have been destroyed and are being destroyed as we speak by the government, to erase any trace of Armenian presence on their homeland.
So, I wouldn't say all suffer equaly in Turkey. The old Turkish hatred against minorities is still working.
Kurds get jailed for talking Kurdish
The government is doing everything to close the Greek Church of Constantinople
It is true that Kurds are not getting jailed for speaking Kurdish all the time, but they are getting jailed for speaking Kurdish in Parliament.
share"There is still serious inequality in the way repression is applied. For example:
- Kurds get jailed for talking Kurdish
- No non-Muslim is allowed to hold high government or military position
- Churches, especially Armenian ones, are subjected to constant abuse by the government, including their lands taken away from them
- The government is doing everything to close the Greek Church of Constantinople (the original Orthodox church)
- countless ancient Armeninian monuments have been destroyed and are being destroyed as we speak by the government, to erase any trace of Armenian presence on their homeland. "
YOUR POSTS JUST GO TO SHOW HOW BIG OF THE LIES YOU LIVE IN ARMENIA. YOU ARE FILLED WITH RAGE AND ESPECIALLY 'FAIRY TALES' ABOUT YOUR PAST...
Your comments such as above are just too ridicuolus as well as irrelevant...
- Kurds get jailed for talking Kurdish
There is a national tv channel in Kurdish and you are saying they are imprisoned for it!!!
-Non-Muslims aren't allowed to hold a high government or military position!!! - I think you are mistaking with possibily the most shameful part of your history (choosing Christianity as the state religion, leading to no freedom of belief among people). Everyone is free to be candidates for everything... In a country of 98% muslims you do the math of possibility that a person will be muslim...
- Churches, especially Armenian ones, are subjected to constant abuse by the government, including their lands taken away from them
By law no religious institution is allowed to make profit in Turkey (as well as mosques) and all their expenses are paid for by the government... I don't know what you are talking about with lands taken away since if you own the land, you can simply go to any court in Turkey and claim the area even without a trial... But I would be happy if you show me a church with land taken away...
- The government is doing everything to close the Greek Church of Constantinople (the original Orthodox church)
It is the Greek Church of Istanbul :) And they even had a budget of 3 million $ in 2005. I don't know why the government gave that much money to a non-profit only expense place but they just did. You claim them to be closed yet they are still open (why would it be hard to close them if they wanted to) and they keep on all their rituals as well as a swim race for the cross in the bosphorus...
- countless ancient Armeninian monuments have been destroyed and are being destroyed as we speak by the government, to erase any trace of Armenian presence on their homeland. "
- countless ancient Armeninian monuments have been destroyed and are being destroyed as we speak by the government, to erase any trace of Armenian presence on their homeland.
Monuments being destroyed??? Give an example oh I forgot all you can do is just put up lies and when we ask for an example or even a clue you put up a post about totally different issue... sorry for asking... Why would they destroy monuments??? It is nothing more than your lies that keep on going...
Hi everyone;
First of all, as a Turkish citizen I have to declare that we have the democrasy in Republic of Turkey for all Muslims, Christians, Jewish; Armenian, Greek, Kurdish and all other.
Secondly, TigranTheGreat is not probably aware of it however nowadays there is a book, a novel, written by Elif Şafak named "Baba ve Piç" which is very famous (one of the best sellers). And i think it has an English version named "THE BASTARD OF ISTANBUL". The book is telling about Armenian genocide and as i understood from the book, the writer (Elif Şafak who is Turkish) has already admited the genocide. So i hope this is an adequate clue for TigranTheGreat to see that people are not jailed for their counter opinions by law. Moreover noone is angry and trying to punish her in soceity just because she has a counter way of thinking.
So, TigranTheGreat, Let me call you "my friend", I wouldn't judge you as a person whether same stories are told to me in the opposite way (they are already). I hope you won't raise your children with the same hatred.
Have a nice day all..
that book is amazing, i recommend anyone whatever their beliefs on this subject to read it.
share[deleted]
Why don't you come over I'll help you with the fresh air of Agri Mountain...
By the way you guys should try to stop anyone in the world from watching Ararat since it only makes them laugh about how pathetic you can get begging for some support on the expense of dignity...
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"(as many of them admitted after the recent show of "Ararat" in Turkey)."
There were discussions on tv after they showed it. Goes to show you what a real democray is (not forcing people to believe in things but rather let them decide, but I guess that's a little far fetched for you guys)...
There are few "Turks" who accept it, who like Pamuk is just trying to get some sympathy from Europeans (late addition to the Nobel contenders).
By the way Turkish governments don't need to proove that genocide happened since unless it's officially proven it doesn't exist.
And to be one of those that don't believe in Genocide you don't need brainwashing. As for myself I have lived most of my life outside Turkey (almost all of it). As long as you keep an open mind and start to look around without premade decisions you can simply understand that genocide didn't exist... But I guess concepts like 'open mind' or making real researches covering all the sides to a story are beyond your reach...
And to makaveli, come make me beg for forgiveness.
Sith, you are unwittingly (though stupidly) proving my point--I am sure there are discussions in your country about the Genocide, and the discussions grow louder and bolder as more Turks start defying your government's ludicrous stance. We Armenians have already defeated your government's denialist machine outside Turkey--the battle right now has moved deep in your country, and the denialists are losing by the day. Of course these honest Turks risk prosecution, since even today Turkey bans discussions on the Genocide (just as it bans the Kurdish language)--which of course is a mere desparate attempt to stop the spread of truth within Turkey, an attempt that is obviously failing.
It's funny by the way how you put the truth-seeking Turks in quotation marks--clearly, as a typical Turkish fanatic, you don't consider them true Turks, which of course shows how pathetic your country has turned in trying to deny the proven.
Just this single post goes to show how idiotic you are.
Turkey has always allowed discussion of anything against or for Turkey... This is called democracy. In Armenia or your beloved France people are forced to accept something against their will simply because politicians want it. That's called dictatorship of people's free will... And I don't think I have to tell you that there can be no bigger brainwashing then this..
And your comment on banning Kurdish goes to show that your are retarded... As I and many others have stated on this board and almost any other place where it's discussed, any language is free in Turkey. There are multiple TV channels in Turkey using Kurdish language... People (mostly Kurds) can take Kurdish lessons in institutions within Turkey... Turks have always been the nation of real freedom simply for treating all of its subjects equally and allowing the continous presence of their cultures...
Sith, we know here what democracy is, and given your country's ban on discussions on Genocide, as well as the ban on Kurdish language, your "Republic of Turkiye" is an autocratic pseudo-state quite far from democracy. Which facilitates your brainwashing.
Of course you and your fanatic Turkish pals can try to keep denying these basic facts. But again, you can keep exposing your nation to mockery, considering that the rest of the world knows about your repressive laws. Since you enjoy getting slaps from me, I will give you two just for fun. Here is what a recent US State Department report says about your law against Genocide discussions:
"The "reasoning" attached to the Penal Code states that persons could be found in violation for accepting payment from foreign sources for the purpose of conducting propaganda in favor of withdrawing troops from Cyprus or (quoting from the text of the "reasoning") "saying that Armenians were subject to a genocide at the end of the First World War.""
Let's see what happens to Kurds in Turkey who want to talk Kurdish in public, or call themselves Kurds:
"Kurds who publicly or politically asserted their Kurdish identity or publicly espoused using Kurdish in the public domain risked censure, harassment, or prosecution."
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41713.htm
Let's see your claim or mine???
According yours and your funny sources, being a Kurd would lead to sentence as well as using language. Any opposing arguement of genocide talk or Cyprus situation is illegal...
My arguement: There are Kurdish TV channels, institutions teaching Kurdish, mostly Kurd supported political party. In fact even a Kurdish president about 15 years ago. These are all known facts, leading to yours being irrelevant, hence my claim of your stupidity true.
Question: Why wasn't Pamuk arrested? There are other examples, but this being the latest one I can easily point it out to you...
Also try to put up real life examples of your Kurdish claims if you can find...
Another question: In countries like France, Belgium, Switzerland and Armenia people are sentenced to jail time simply for not accepting what these governments claim is true. They are not allowed to make counter-arguements or defend themselves simply because politicians have decided that they are not allowed. The reason of these prosecutions are not based on any discussion of scholars, official researches, or any international law... Is this democracy?
- Repressive countries (like Turkey) generally try to put up sham cases of "freedom" to avoid total embarrassment in front of the world. The existence of so called "Kurdish channel" or "Kurdish classes," which are according to official reports very restricted, are examples of such "sham liberties." Official reports look beyond such ludicrous propaganda on the part of your country, and report the real situation--that Kurds get jailed for talking Kurdish.
- It's fun seeing your knee-jerk reaction to call any official sources as "funny" whenever they debunk you (in this case, an official US anual report). You seriously need to start thinking why the rest of the world laughs at your country.
- Whether Pamuk was arrested is not relevant--autocratic nations such as Turkey generally pick and choose when to apply an oppressive law--depending on political ramifications. What makes your country a pathetic one is the very existence of law banning discussion on the Genocide is what matters, since it makes anyone speaking the truth face the risk of jail.
- The ban on Genocide denial is completely consistent with the principles of freedom of speech (since it promotes hatred), which is why civilized nations practice it. Given lack of democracy in your country, it is not surprising that you are incapable of understanding it.
-I enjoy how you bend over and ask for more slaps every time I debunk you. I already slapped you with a report stating that Kurds speaking Kurdish risk jail in Turkey. Here are a few examples, just to debunk you further for fun:
Official 2005 US State Department report on Turkey:
"In October a Sanliurfa court sentenced local DEHAP official Resit Yardimci to a 6-month prison term and fined him $1,214 (1,640 lira) for greeting the audience in Kurdish during a 2003 party convention.
"In December an Ankara court began the trial of 12 officials of the pro-Kurdish party Hak-Par for speaking Kurdish at a party convention and distributing Kurdish-language invitations to the convention."
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61680.htm
" Resit Yardimci "
Speaking Kurdish??? He wasn't prisoned for the language he spoke he was prisoned for what he said : "PKK is fighting for the right causes"... I, like most others, find the sentence for supporting an internationally accepted terrorist organization to be more than a lame 6 month prison fine.
""In December an Ankara court began the trial of 12 officials of the pro-Kurdish party Hak-Par for speaking Kurdish at a party convention and distributing Kurdish-language invitations to the convention."
The number should be 14 or 15 as far as I remember. They went to trial for putting up the picture of Abdullah Ocalan (another internationally stated terrorist) next to PKK flag on the convention. They went ahead for getting prison terms (something you missed out)
"- The ban on Genocide denial is completely consistent with the principles of freedom of speech (since it promotes hatred), which is why civilized nations practice it. Given lack of democracy in your country, it is not surprising that you are incapable of understanding it. "
Don't keep on embarassing yourself. Anyone, anywhere in the world should be allowed to present their cases. Any other opinion, practice or even thought is irrelevant. Your 'civilized nation' idea is forcing people into believing others' truth, which they didn't even decide on logical basis but political basis.
"Whether Pamuk was arrested is not relevant--autocratic nations such as Turkey generally pick and choose when to apply an oppressive law--depending on political ramifications. "
And why don't we pick anyone to apply them??? May be because we don't have those laws...
Sith, you keep embarrassing yourself by repeating the usual lame excuses of the Turkish government, which incidentally are the usual lame excuses of any dictatorship--"nooo, we don't oppress human rights, we just fight our enemies." Fortunately, the rest of the world sees through these excuses, which is why they laugh at you.
Let's see now whether the US State Department thinks that Turkey arrests Kurds for "supporting terrorism," or for actually talking Kurdish.
Official 2004 US State Department report on Turkey:
"Kurds who publicly or politically asserted their Kurdish identity or publicly espoused using Kurdish in the public domain risked censure, harassment, or prosecution."
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41713.htm
Official 2005 US State Department report on Turkey:
"In October a Sanliurfa court sentenced local DEHAP official Resit Yardimci to a 6-month prison term and fined him $1,214 (1,640 lira) for greeting the audience in Kurdish during a 2003 party convention.
"In December an Ankara court began the trial of 12 officials of the pro-Kurdish party Hak-Par for speaking Kurdish at a party convention and distributing Kurdish-language invitations to the convention."
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61680.htm
Apparently the rest of the world knows all to well about the oppressing of Kurds in Turkey. Apparently Turkish fanatics think they can fool the world by repeating the fake excuses of their government. Of course what they don't realize is that they subject their country to further mockery.
Sith: "Anyone, anywhere in the world should be allowed to present their cases."
Sith, you continue to embarras yourself. Your state of "Turkiye" arrests people for speaking their opinions about the Genocide or Kurds. Are you now ready to admit that you live in an oppressive society?
As for the ban on Genocide denial in Europe, obviously these countries have much longer tradition of human rights and know much more about freedom of speech than Turkey. Of course you can keep claiming that you know more than them, but again you are free to make a fool of yourself. Before doing that, you might want to learn what leading scholars think of your views. Here is a statement by a world renowned Holocaust scholar Lipstadt on freedom of speech and genocide denial:
"Denial of genocide--whether that of the Turks against the Armenians or the Nazis against the Jew--is not an act of historical reinterpretation. Rather, it sows confusion by appearing to be engaged in a genuine scholarly effort. Those who deny genocide always dismiss the abundance of documents and testimony as contrived or coerced, or as forgeries and falsehoods. Free speech does not guarantee the deniers the right to be treated as the "other" side of a legitimate debate when there is no credible "other side"; nor does it guarantee the deniers space in the classroom or curriculum, or in any other forum. Genocide denial is an insidious form of intellectual and moral degradation."
Professor Deborah Lipstadt, renowned Holocaust scholar, author of "Denying the Holocaust," and "History on Trial". 1996
http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4436
Apparently the rest of the world knows much more about free speech than you.
Sith: And why don't we pick anyone to apply them??? May be because we don't have those laws..."
Let's see one more time what official government reports state about your country, as opposed to the fairy tales you have been brainwashed to believe:
Official 2004 US State Department report on Turkey:
"The "reasoning" attached to the Penal Code states that persons could be found in violation for accepting payment from foreign sources for the purpose of conducting propaganda in favor of withdrawing troops from Cyprus or (quoting from the text of the "reasoning") "saying that Armenians were subject to a genocide at the end of the First World War.""
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41713.htm
Apparently, brainwashing has worked quite well on you and your fellow fanatic Turks.
You are not slapping me you are just making me laugh..
I am not happy what is going on in my country but why are you so interested?
I don't no which not repressed colonialist country you are from, but I think that your country is soooo civilised that you find in your pathetic mind the courage to insult my country, they didn't efen teach you how to talk your are copying and pasting facts...Why you are not digging the past of your own country, I bet all you will find will be colonial dirt and racist dust...Try it...
See as a Turkish woman I am sooo free to speak that I can speak with a respectless person like you in a foreign language...I think you should invite all kurdish terrorists in your nice warm civilised country so we can live freely with our kurdish and armenian brothers and sisters in peace...
Ok;
So my Armenian friends from all written above, i can see that you have a constant mind and noone can change it. Many times it is told to you that noone's is punished because of telling what he believes or speaking his mother tongue. But you keep saying "since even today Turkey bans discussions on the Genocide (just as it bans the Kurdish language)--".
So this is a clue that you don't understand anything. Your brain is pretty surrounded by walls like all other "superior Armenians" who are living in poverty and begging Turkey (whom they accuse for meaningless genocide) to open the gates.
Don't wait for coming to mount Ararat to take fresh air. You need it now. I suggest you to go a mount in the country you exist in (whereever you are in; Switzerland, france...) and breathe deeply. Otherwise you will never be able take fresh air.
I'm sure you will be happy to read what i wrote above, just you love hatred.
burakok: "i can see that you have a constant mind and noone can change it. Your brain is pretty surrounded by walls "
burak, you are perfectly describing your brainwashed nation (i.e. Turkey)--it's good to see that you are admitting the pathetic condition of your people in your autocratic pseudo-state. I already slapped your fellow fanatic pal Sith with specific examples of bans against Genocide discussions and Kurdish language, so I won't repeat them here.
You might want to take as much fresh air in Western Armenia as you can, before it is returned to Armenians (which is of course only a matter of time).
Read my post and try to answer it.. You attempted a slap and got a huge beating up in return... Your love for getting beaten up seems to evolve into bigger pleasure for you since you keep asking for more..
share[deleted]
Learning from your lies and made up imagination :) Something everyone needs. But really you should start listening to other arguements and learn to look into them. And don't forget to keep an open mind to simply accept the truth that's not yours... I'm trying to teach you yet you keep living in your wall-blocked brainwashed self...
share[deleted]
We don't deny anything. But i understood that you can not see the world with your own eyes because your mind is already made up by others. I mean you are programmed.
I'm telling one by one for once more (hope you will understand)
Genocide didn't happen because genocide means "systematic and planned killing of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." I have to remind that there are still Armenian people living in Turkey and will live forever because they are citizens of republic of Turkey and don't try to kill other citizens of the country by demands of Russians!!
How can you insist on the racial opression stuff? Have you been in Turkey or are you telling all these by watching tv?
Believe me, we show you many more photos than you do. But you don't see them. You get blind suddenly. So where is the denial. Try to listen to counter words. One day in the future you will loose the insincere support of economically powerful countries and you will need a land to live. You can not live in others places forever!! Come to Armenia and build it up for your future.
So there is no other denial list than your made-up one.
and the first woman pilot was in Turkey like all other firsts but a genocide.
Don't try to accuse other nations for your faulty and dirty history.
Dirty history?
Burakkoc,
Look in the mirror. What you see is the complete opposite of what the world sees. Yours is an illusion. The world's is every reason to reject anything you have to say.
About the first woman pilot, I know a couple years ago -- or something like that -- there was an uproar about her being an Armenian. I don't know the exact information, but I remember hearing something about her death and that she was the "Armenian" daughter of Kemal. I'm not saying this is fact, but I remember hearing about it -- so don't accuse me of making factual claims here. I just don't know for sure. Maybe someone else does.
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israel=jews land , come on, you cant be that naive...
shareAnd Western Armenia (temporarily occupied by Turkey) = Armenians' land. Obviously you can be even *that* ignorant.
shareersoy, you are living in the fantasiland fabricated by your government's propaganda. According to the following UN report, Turkey is a third-world country ranking at 94th place: http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2005/pdf/HDR05_HDI.pdf. The report lists the Human Development Index (HDI) of all nations, which is an indicator of the overall well being of the nation, used by the World Bank, IMF and other institutions. With a rank of 94, your underdeveloped state ranks even below Armenia. Which is even more humiliating for you, if you consider the fact that your pseudo-state has been independend much longer than the Republic of Armenia, thus having had much longer time to develop.
share"And Western Armenia (temporarily occupied by Turkey) = Armenians' land."
the above statement is against all the international agreements and other staf. I wouldnt talk with someone who states this kind of a sentence because of the simplest fact that he/she is nothing but a terrorist and a threat not just for Turkey but also to all humanity.
since Turkey is a very strong country(top 10)in the case of military power, noone will take such a risk like occupying Turkey(if they wanna take the so called Western Armenia)this argument also hold for Iran,France,Germany...etc which have very powerful armies.
I and other Armenians are not bound by international agreements and "other staf," so we can freely demand our lands back and work in that direction. By the way, the last international agreement that Armenia signed with Turkey was the treaty of Sevres, which returned half of Western Armenia to Armenians, and which has never been revoked. Since the Genocide was used by Turks to prevent the independence of entire Western Armenia, we will get the other half as well.
By the way, Turkey is a third world underdeveloped nation with a coward military that has so far only attacked the weak (violating international laws) while fearing the strong. For example, fearing to engage with Armenia directly, Turkey tried to use Azerbaijan to attack Armenians, sending hundreds of Turkish officers to Azerbaijan in the early 90's.
Of course the Turkish officers had to flee the victorious Armenian forces, who defeated Azerbaijan with a population ratio of 1:70 (120,000 Karabakh Armenians vs. 7 million Azeris). So, regaining Western Armenia won't be much of a problem, considering that Kurds alone have been making mockery of the Turkish "military."
It doesn't mean that Armenians will have to use force to liberate Western Armenia. The continuous diplomatic defeats of Turkey at the hands of Armenians, the growing external and internal pressure, as well as the weak nature of the Turkish state (which is nothing more than an artifically created quasi-state of oppressed and oppressive nations) lead only to one conclusion--that liberation of Western Armenia is only matter of time.
burakok: "Genocide didn't happen because genocide means "systematic and planned killing of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." I have to remind that there are still Armenian people living in Turkey
burak, you show the same signs of severe ignorance present in your fanatic Turkish peers here. The brainwashing of your people has clearly been quite thorogh. According to the Genocide Convention, a Genocide doesn't have to destroy "entire" nation--it can be a "partial" destruction as well. Clearly Serbians didn't have to massacre the entire Bosnian population for it to qualify a genocide--2000 dead was enough. There are still Jews living in Germany, doesn't mean the Holocaust didn't happen (which is what your logic would state).
We don't need to live in Turkey to know that you suppress your minorities. Actually, because we don't live in your autocratic pseudo-state, we are free from its brainwashing. Fortunately, the rest of the world knows fully well of your oppressive society, as demonstrated by official US Government reports posted on this board.
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Incredible in the fact that you never feel ashamed wanting to have our lands given to you people on where terrorist armenians butchered innocent people decades ago.
Feed the poor in Armenia instead of being toys of emperialists.
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nope just u the offspring of the Terrorist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASALA
akine, you first need to examine your own nation's terrorist past and present, before humiliating your people. A while ago I got curious and looked for Turkish terrorist groups. I got tired after counting 30 of them, and they didn't even include Kurdish groups. For the past several decades these terrorists (some sponsored by the Turkish government itself) have been murdering thousands of innocent people. Turkish terrorists still bomb Jewish Synagogues and Western buildings in Turkey as we speak, like the terrorist attacks in Istanbul in 2003-04. The Turkish government encourages such actions by fostering ever increasing anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism among Turks.
By the way, here is a partial list of the numerous Turkish terrorist groups:
al-Qaeda (I included this because Turkish members or related Turkish groups have been responsible for hudreds of deaths and injuries in Istanbul in 2003-04).
DHKP-C
TKEP/L
TKP/ML-TIKKO
Communist Workers Movement
Turkish People's Liberation Army (TPLA)
Turkish Hezbollah
Islamic Great Eastern Raiders Front
Turkish Islamic Jihad
Anti-Armenian Organization
June 16 Organization
Turkish People's Liberation Front (TPLF) (THKP-C)
Dev Yol
Dev Genc
Turkish Communist Labor Party (TKEP)
TDP (Turkish Revolution Party)
Turkish Islamic Liberation Army (IKO)
Turkish Islamic Liberation Front (TIK-C)
Fighters of the Islamic Revolution (IDAM)
Turkish Islamic Liberation Union (TIKB)
World Sharia Liberation Army (DSKO)
Universal Brotherhood Front-Sharia Revenge Squad (EKC-SIM)
Islamic Liberation party Front (IKP-C)
Turkish Fighters of the Universal Islamic War of Liberation (EIK-TM)
Turkish Islamic Fighters Army (IMO)
Turkish Sharia Revenge Commandos (TSIK)
Islamic Liberation Party
Islamic Jihad
Turkish Islamic Movement
Nationalist Movement (MHP)
sources: tkb.org, http://www.ict.org.il, www.teror.gen.tr.
Of course the same hatred among Turks resulted in the Armenian Genocide. Therefore it is imperative for Turkey to recognize the Armenian Genocide and return property and land to Armenians, in order to purge the Turkish people of their hatred and avoid their hate-caused crimes.
You idiot!!! We even had a woman Prime Minister towards the end of the 1990s. What do you have to show for women being treated equally???
By the way wasn't it the same US sources that said there were nuclear bombs and they had proof to show for it???
All that you guys try to put up against Turkey that you have learned from your racist, genocide dreaming "leaders" have always and still are being smashed back into your faces with continuing proof of otherwise...
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Can't you all just be sad that these conversations are happening in the first place? People died! And people will continue to die and be killed in the future if people like you don't change! We can't make people believe what they don't want to believe! we can only show them. We only have one life we should spend it figuring out how to make it a good, happy , and safe one! I am neither Armienian or Turkish. Nor do i know a great deal about the situation. However I do know that innocent people died. Let me restate that. Innocent people were slaughterd. It cannot happen again. However change cannot be forced!(as seen) it takes time! Arguing will change nothing. Only actions will. Intellagent peaceful actions. We all have something in common. We all are people with hearts souls, family, boyfreinds, wifes, kids. We all just have different ways of interacting within those areas. Yes the word needs to get out that what happened in 1915 was a travasty against arminians, however it can be done without putting down people living today. The turks living now did not kill armineans so don't blame them, it will only cause more hatred. It needs to stop! so please try and look at it from your heart. really think about it!Peace its really possible, if gone about in the right way. Although it wont change the pain from the past, it can prevent it in the future!
shareTurkey is the land of real freedom, noone to thank for to see a movie. Sorry that I can't say the same about you guys, but hey you are not interested in freedom anyways. By the way can you notice that your replies seem to lack any answers to my claims or thoughts... Wonder why???
shareSith,
The idea that there is a second side to the genocide is ludicrous. How much time would you give to someone who claimed that the earth is flat?
Wouldn't it be just enough time to point them in the direction of the evidence -- the overwhelming evidence that would prove them wrong? Of course it would. Tigran, Uber, Cilicia, Liana, and some others who've posted here, have pointed you in that direction. It's now up to you to see that 1 + 1 has always added up to 2. If something that obvious doesn't register in your mind, maybe we should point you in the direction of a hospital so that you can have your head examined.
Denial is not something to be considered by those who've seen the evidence that proves the claim of genocide. But I guess that idea is beyond your grasp.
"he overwhelming evidence that would prove them wrong"
"Tigran, Uber, Cilicia, Liana, and some others who've posted here", what they post are conclusions of those who agree on genocide, leaving out any who oppose.
As I always say, why don't you guys want a general research and let Turkey stand its ground??? If you think that such overwhelming evidence exists then it shouldn't be hard to argue your case... What are you afraid of that you try to stop anyone from making their case???
what they post are conclusions of those who agree on genocide, leaving out any who oppose.
f you think that such overwhelming evidence exists then it shouldn't be hard to argue your case...
So why, pray tell, should we include your government's version?If you really were trying to find out the truth, you would have included "our version".
Should we present the neo-Nazis' views on the Holocaust each time we bring it up?Not every time, but keep in mind that the Nazi were taken to court and their crimes were proven. But no, you wouldn't take the issue on the court, your lies would be uncovered in 15 minutes.
That leads to one conclusion: You guys don't want to see the truth (whether it is genocide existed or not). You guys just want pity of others to say that genocide existed. So you can hopefully get some money from Turkey.
"the evidence is interspersed throughout many countries' archives"
If the evidence exists then you guys should be running around screaming for a conference which would only help you prove the genocide. Don't forget it has never officially been proven.
It is just stupid to think that it is not necessary to prove the genocide opposite to Turkey. If it really happened and you have proof for it then Turks will not have anything to deny... But of course that's only if it existed (looking at how every Armenian is afraid of a conference just proves Turkey's case)
Following your logic, you need to include in every post of yours the following statement: "I, last-c, am a complete Turkish idiot." Because, after all, that is my version of you.
By the way, we don't need to try to find the truth. The truth has been found and proven. Hence, there is no need to include your (Turkish) version.
The Young Turk perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide were taken to a Turkish court as well, where their crimes were proven. Therefore, your denial of the Armenian Genocide is very much like Holocaust denial, which was eloquently stated by Samantha Power in the new documentary, and which is why the world laughs at you.
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Following your logic, neither the Jewish Holocaust nor the Rwandan Genocide have been "officially proven." Of course it's merely the logic of a Turkish fanatic, since both have been actually proven, much like the Armenian Genocide. That's why your quasi-nation has degenarated into a culture similar to the culture of Holocaust deniers (i.e. a group of losers).
We Armenians have never avoided a conference on the issue of the Genocide. Another question is that there is no need for such a conference, since the Genocide has been proven long time ago, the proof is available all over the world, and the world knows about the proof and accepts the Genocide.
Of course Turks know this, which is why they bend over to EU begging for acceptance and trying to avoid the issue of the Genocide. Obviously Armenians will never let this happen, which is why Turkey is afraid of Armenians and afraid of the truth, as evidenced by Turkey's hatred against Armenians and by the ever growing Turkish hysteria to deny the truth. Of course the more Turkey loses in its denialist campaign, the more hysterical and desperate it gets in its excuses and lies, which makes Turks look ever more foolish.
By the way, Turkish fanatics here have generally shown severe handicap in intelligence. Now, following your logic (again, the laughable logic of a Turkish fanatic), it's never been officially proven that Turks have functioning brains. Therefore, you either need to kneel and admit that your logic (and everything you have said so far) has been stupid, or admit that you Turks have no brains. Tell us which is it.
Sith: "what they (Tigran, Uber, Cilicia, Liana) post are conclusions of those who agree on genocide, leaving out any who oppose"
Actually we have posted excerpts from actual archival documents by individuals involved with the Turkish government, who all state that the Armenian Genocide was a state planned action by Turkey. It's not our fault that you can't read what doesn't suit you.
I now am sure that you are incapable of accepting any facts!!! If the genocide proof is out there why aren't Armenians running around and hoping for a conference that involves both sides??? It's the only chance that you guys have for Turkish approval if genocide existed.
"We Armenians have never avoided a conference on the issue of the Genocide"
Even scared of a debate of 2 * 2 sure you want a conference :)
You guys don't understand that only idiotic people can ask for a genocide recognition that only has been proven by some while some others have talked down the "proof". If genocide existed then there is no way that you can expect Turkey to accept it without them having a chance to proove themselves. Any other talk or even an idea is stupid (no different than imprisonment without a court).
"By the way, Turkish fanatics here have generally shown severe handicap in intelligence. Now, following your logic (again, the laughable logic of a Turkish fanatic), it's never been officially proven that Turks have functioning brains. Therefore, you either need to kneel and admit that your logic (and everything you have said so far) has been stupid, or admit that you Turks have no brains. Tell us which is it."
Another one of your stupid comments since you are not capable of making a post without insulting others (actually trying to insult)...
Running around is something that Turks like to do--for example, they are running around trying to pay off Western scholars (so far they have succeeded with 3 people), spread fabrications, and suppress the truth. That's the behaviour of a loser who knows he has lost his case, as is the case with Turkey. Armenians have no need to ask for a conference, as they know that the Genocide has been proven, and the world sees it that way. We wouldn't mind another conference, since Turks would be defeated there in 4 seconds, but there simply is no need to prove the proven.
By the way, no one has ignored Turkey's side of the story. Turkey has had 90 years to tell its side, and it has lost. Because their side was based on lies.
If you disagree with the above, you must do the following. I am claiming that you have no functional brain (as we have somehow demonstrated it). You need to start a conference to determine whether you in fact have a brain. Don't forget to invite opinions of those who challenge you. If you refuse to do so, you will be admitting that there is no brain in your head (as suspected).
"Running around is something that Turks like to do--for example, they are running around trying to pay off Western scholars (so far they have succeeded with 3 people), spread fabrications, and suppress the truth. That's the behaviour of a loser who knows he has lost his case, as is the case with Turkey. Armenians have no need to ask for a conference, as they know that the Genocide has been proven, and the world sees it that way. We wouldn't mind another conference, since Turks would be defeated there in 4 seconds, but there simply is no need to prove the proven."
Exactly another proof to my point that you guys are really scared. Anyone who opposes are bought by Turks, the rest great guys.. Keep it up if you like being lame crybabies.
"We wouldn't mind another conference"
Actually you would that's why all the Armenians are scared of any debate involving both sides. Don't forget that any proof of genocide existing or not after any research is pointless as well as irrelevant as long as involves both sides of the story. Which rules out almost anyone that has claimed to proove the genocide as time wasters...
"If you disagree with the above, you must do the following. I am claiming that you have no functional brain (as we have somehow demonstrated it). You need to start a conference to determine whether you in fact have a brain. Don't forget to invite opinions of those who challenge you. If you refuse to do so, you will be admitting that there is no brain in your head (as suspected)."
If you claim that I don't have a functioning brain you must proove so, otherwise your claim is useless. Don't put up these things to make a bigger ass of yourself. But thanks for the laugh...
Sith, it's fun watching you start fumbling and rambling every time I slap you. Let's keep slapping you some more.
Sith: "Don't forget that any proof of genocide existing or not after any research is pointless as well as irrelevant as long as involves both sides of the story."
I am not sure what the above gibberish means, but I don't think "involving" both sides makes evidence irrelevant. At any rate, the scholars who admit the Genocide (everyone outside Turkey) have never ignored the Turkish claims. It's nother issue that these claims have been found stupid.
And you are right, the world does admit the Genocide, while Turks have only managed to bribe 3 denialists. It's good seeing you admit the truth after I slapped you.
By the way, if you are claiming that you have a brain, you need to set-up a conference to prove it. If you don't, you admit that you don't have any. Let us know what you decide.
"Don't forget that any proof of genocide existing or not after any research is pointless as well as irrelevant UNLESS involves both sides of the story" sorry for the typo...
"And you are right, the world does admit the Genocide, while Turks have only managed to bribe 3 denialists. " Where in my post or in any post did I say that?? Oh I forgot this is how you Armenians do it, claiming that people said things that you make up... After a few posts you will even write that it has been proven that I said it :)
"It's good seeing you admit the truth after I slapped you"
Actually you can look all over the board to see how our discussions end. You get slapped and leave the discussion and claim to have proven something to anyone. And most of the time your posts don't even reply to anything I, or someone else, put put...
"By the way, if you are claiming that you have a brain, you need to set-up a conference to prove it. If you don't, you admit that you don't have any. Let us know what you decide"
I don't need to I can just use an X-Ray... But if you want to talk it down you are welcome to proove otherwise... But I would really love to see you proove that you are smart but it's even less likely than pink snow...
Sith, every time I slap you, your posts decompose into an incoherent soup of gibberish. You need to thank me for picking only your major idiocies out of it and debunking you.
Anyway, back to slapping you for whatever is left of your claims.
Sith: "Don't forget that any proof of genocide existing or not after any research is pointless as well as irrelevant UNLESS involves both sides of the story" sorry for the typo..."
You are forgiven. As to both sides of the story, Turkey has presented its side for 90 years, and nobody believes it any more. It's not that your side has been ignored, it's just your side has lost.
By the way, your x-ray is pointless without a conference. You need to invite a conference to determine whether you have a brain or not. If you don't, you are admitting that you haven't got any.
It's always fun toying with you (and other Turkish fanatics) using your own idiotic logic.
tigranTHEsmall what a shamee.You dont know anything about the real history of the armenians and also THE TURKS.But this is not your fault boy your programmed with lies of your fanatic leaders.But if I were you ( but I cant be stupid like this) . read some time , read the history , researh it you will see that all your saying is wrong and stupid (but dont read the book of toynbee- he said it was wrong).And its definite that you didnt came to TURKIYE before I have got lots of Kurd friends and they talking very good kurdish.So they are still by my side nobody arrasted them because of talking.But if they support to terrorist pkk they surely arrested and jailed.but there is nothing wrong about that or is it wrong.I forgot in france and other democracy handicapped country take you to jail beacuse of having idea or talking hahahaha.What a shame...Lastly tigran you're in the darkness of ignorance!!! Read my UNEDUCATED friend.
share[deleted]
Hitler was right: Nobody cares about Armenians.
You put pressure on Turkey to acknowledge the genocide and they will ignore you. You threaten then with embargoes and they will take their business elsewhere. Most countries have already demonstrated that they would prefer to continue trading with Turkey rather than risking good business over the excavation of a historical event nobody cares about.
Nobody outside Turkey will ever get the government to break the cycle of denial. These things always collapse from within, as Turks force Turks to face their own past.
"Rape is no laughing matter. Unless you're raping a clown."
have most of you losers even watch this movie? I gotta assume some of the users posting as far as back as 2006, going as far as stereotyping Armenians, some discriminating against Armenians, had you watched this film, you might understand why the issue of the genocide is such a hot topic still, and how you all are hypocritically proving this film's message right.
Man it's just depressing, all this ignorance, and all this history, and the amount of hate towards Armenians is unbelievable. I'm glad I live in Toronto, and I'm glad we're taught to think freely here, and I'm glad that we don't tolerate blind hate around here. You know, Americans get a lot of crap for the way they treated Africans 150-200 years ago, and the way they degraded an entire race of people. I can safely say, for all the terrible things people say about Americans abroad, at least they've learned from their history. I can only pray that some day the middle east and Turkey learn from their own history, and make amends with the Jewish people and the Armenians.
SithLord13, would you say there was no genocide or even large scale massacres of Armenians in 1915-1917? I'm Canadian, and from what I heard, that genocide is acknowledged by pretty much everybody except Turkey. I'm not saying I hate Turks. After all I don't hate Germans, even though the Holocaust happened relatively recently. Maybe the Germans have been able to move on precisely because denial was (mostly) abandoned. Obviously one could argue that the Armenian genocide is pure fantasy and never happened, but I highly doubt that. Maybe the question is more : was it a "genuine" genocide according to the exact definition, or was it a series of brutal massacres? And does that make any difference?
share[deleted]
Tigran, go get a life...As I can see you are threatening people here...We are not living in the middle age...
share[deleted]
::As long as you keep an open mind and start to look around without premade decisions you can simply understand that genocide didn't exist... But I guess concepts like 'open mind' or making real researches covering all the sides to a story are beyond your reach... ::
That's nonsense. Any objective research will point to one conclusion: genocide. Why are you so opposed to the notion that your forefathers committed such heinous acts? My ancestors in America committed terrible attrocites against slaves. The ancestors of Germans perpetrated the Holocaust (or do you deny that too?).
If you want the rest of the world to take your country and its citizens seriously, you really need to admit to the horrors the Turkish government perpetrated in the early 20th Century.
PS: Are you telling me that all of the evidence presented at sites like the following were fabricated? If so, why?
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/us-4-27-15.html
i armenian living in australia, it might be hard to believe but i am friends with turks. i just dont bring up the genocide topic and neither do they. i personally believe (ive looked into it for myself, as i like to look at different perspectives on issues) that the ottoman young turks did carry out certain things against armenians, assyrians and minority greeks during ww1, and can be classed as genocide.
however im not out to change peoples minds on the matter. i think it is wrong for me to hate turks indiscriminantly and so i dont, i make peace with them. but i think the turks would do well to show their maturity by also making peace with armenians and assyrians, etc. im not trying to change your strong opinions on the subject, but i am however telling you that for us it is a very sensitive issue and to at least look at it from our point of view and be respectful of our views.
we arent going to get anywhere in this world if we keep fighting all the time, and our cultures are very similar, with food and music etc. there is much to be gained by peace and while i am very proud of being armenian, i am very happy to be one of the few that actually has turkish friends.
peace all, tell me what u think?
<<- No non-Muslim is allowed to hold high government or military position>>
And in England no Catholic is allowed to be king or queen...so what's your point?
REALLY? "the only place that every human has equal rights"
Does ARTICLE 301 remind you of anything? Do the names Orhan Pamuk,Murat Belge, Perihan Magden, Elif Shafak, Ragıp Zarakolu (these are just recent cases) remind you of anything? Well according to your laws All these were prosecuted because they insulted "Turkishness" and "acted against the interests of the nation", that is : they dared to express their opinions.
Leyla Zena, a Turkish Kurd who was a parliamentarian spent 10 years in jail for having spoken Kurdish in the Turkish parliament. Mreover,Turkey has recently arrested several prominent and outspoken critics of the horrible Turkish human rights record
Another case, out of the many, is that of ISMAIL BESIKCI , a professor of sociology, has served three prison sentences amounting to twelve
years for his scholarly writings on Turkey's Kurdish population.
In the past 36 years the Turkish military have overturned three governments, suspended three parliaments, hanged a prime minister and imprisoned thousands of civilians, some of whom are still in jail. Free speech? Human rights?
Quoting from Amnesty international report on Turkey : "The human rights picture in Turkey is bleak. Torture and ill-treatment have long been routine. The 1990s have seen the emergence of "disappearances" and extrajudicial executions. Turkey's citizens do not enjoy true freedom of expression. The security forces are the most powerful group in the country and they have treated human rights with contempt"
Also from Amnesty international report on Turkey : "Successive governments have either denied that human rights violations occur, or justified them as the inevitable consequence of defending national security. The result is that no one in Turkey enjoys true personal security. Despite repeated promises of reform, Turkish citizens can still be arbitrarily detained. In custody, they will be unprotected against torture, still a standard method of interrogation. Since 1980 more than 400 people have reportedly been tortured to death in custody. "Disappearances" and political killings have claimed thousands of victims since 1991."
Too much government propaganta for you my friend
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Shame on you Mak. I replied his post before seeing yours...You biased dirty dirty diasporian.
shareIt is nice to see a Greek poster here. I've been looking for it for a long time. Our endless struggle with Armenians getting a little boring time to time.Both sides keep telling about their qwn truths without paying much attention over the other sides views.
"(these are just recent cases)"
Tsoutsoukis, you have chosen very perfect samples to show the deficiencies in our democracy. We are aware of them. Hard to deny any of them. I have only one thing to tell, Article 301 is a recent code, believe it or not, it has been created during the accomodation process of Turkish Legal System into EU legal system. Except A-301, other samples are rather old. Thanks to EU induced changes, system is much more tolerant now comparing with 10 years ago.
"In the past 36 years the Turkish military have overturned three governments, suspended three parliaments, hanged a prime minister and imprisoned thousands of civilians, some of whom are still in jail. Free speech? Human rights? "
Your colonel's junta has been more brutal and lasted much longer than the sum of our three military coups. Without EU maybe you would face new ones. Just like Spain or Portugal. We are not proud of our juntas of course. They happened and Turkish democracy have won eventually. Creating a sound democracy takes a history time. Our EU process is some kind of insurance against new ones, anti-EU forces just like anti-Turkish Lobby in EU are very active and powerful in this country. They will do anything to slow down the process.
Finally I have two points to talk about your side? I do not want to blame Greece with anything, just asking and want to learn your views:
1-What is your problem with Makedonia? They have been existed during early history and have been called as Makedonians, living in Makedonia. Why do not let them to identfy themselves as Makedonians, using the name of Makedonia in their own territories? They do not even live in Greece?
2-Similarly, you have a large Turkish minority in Western Thracia, again you do not let them to identify and call themselves as ethnic "Turks". You call them "Muslims" How do you explain that?
" They happened and Turkish democracy have won eventually."
Even now , Turkey is controlled by the military - and that's the EU opinion , not mine .
Welcome to the Christian Board
( bashing-free )
http://com5.runboard.com/bshjihm
That is partially true. We need a guarantee against political islam. That may be a final consensus in the secular character of the state, EU membersip or in the worst case partial military control(only over the secularism issue). I would certainly prefere partial military control over a sharia state.
That is our unsolved and chronic defect in our democracy experience. If we can solve that puzzle Muslim world may get adapted into a democratic way of life and world may be a better and safer place to live in.
"We need a guarantee against political islam"
And here we go again , running in circles around islam . Is islam compatible with democracy and the EU ? Because EU will not tolerate to bring the army guard dog in the house .
"I would certainly prefere partial military control over a sharia state. "
The question is - can Turkey survive as a secular state after being rejected by the west ?
Welcome to the Christian Board
( bashing-free )
http://com5.runboard.com/bshjihm
Wow...Turks will go to any measure to deny the truth. Hm. So where did all of those Armenians go in 1915 anyways? The moon? I think not.
shareI have Armenian friends in Turkey.. They are different than other Armenians.. They have open mind. I can understand Armenian poeple's suffer. Many Armenians died but there was no genosite.. Turks died too. It is history. Noone can change. Turkey is not responsible of that. And now Armenians want part of our land.. I think they are thinking that Turkey is like Azerbaycan. If Armenians want part of our land, Italians want all Europe.. Why not? Cause Empire Of Rome conqured all Europe. Remember...
shareVedataslan,
You have Armenian friends in Turkey and they are different than other Armenians? What does that mean? If you're referring to the idea that they may not speak openly about the genocide or admit to it -- I highly doubt that any Armenian would faithfully do such a thing -- remember that they would be jailed for doing so in Turkey. I'm sure you'll disagree with this fact, but it is the case in Turkey, as we've read about others who've been charged with a crime for speaking about the genocide.
Many Armenians died and it WAS genocide, as has been proven unquestioningly.
You've misunderstood our intentions -- We don't want part of YOUR land. We want OUR lands back. We're only talking about OUR lands, not yours. Much of the lands that you call YOURS is actually OURS -- the Armenians. So try to understand that we're only going to take back OUR lands, not yours.
You're actually comparing Italians and Europe to Armenians and Armenian lands that Turkey stole? Armenians didn't create an empire with the lands of others. We had our own lands -- that your ancestors stole -- and that we will take back -- just like we took a small part of it back from Azerbaijan. We've now moved on to Turkey and the same will happen there.
Sawyereno
do u believe really what u said... part of turkey is belong to Armenia??... how can u say that.. YOUR land was belong to OTHERS before Armenians... what if they want back.. Maybe Mongolians.. maybe Hungarians.. How old is Armenia??. can we back 1000 years ago? or 3000...5000??? whose land was it?
"We've now moved on to Turkey and same will happen there" (dont be ridiculous)
here is movie web site.. don't be war lover.. if u have opininon write please.. here is for smart people.. not for racists..
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I'm living proof that the genocide happened. I am an Armenian with a Turkish last name. My great grandfather was forced to change his last name from Armenian to Turkish during the genocide. Saying the events of 1915 was not genocide is like a slap in the face. When I say denial, I mean the government of Turkey is in denial, not the citizens.
And most Armenians would agree that we do not have hatred for Turkey, it’s the fact that the genocide is being denied by the Turkish gov't. You can go ahead and believe what your schools and government teaches you about 1915, but I have proof through family blood to tell me the real truth.
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The fact Armenians killed more Turks would only be true if Katch Vartan was resurrected somehow and defended Armenia during the genocide. Otherwise, look how much bigger Turkey was in numbers vs. Armenia.
share[deleted]
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And you Mako, go back and *beep* with your adoptive sister just like Rafi did in the movie Ararat, i dont aware Armenians have such a disgusting tradition like this...
shareMy brainwashed friend :)
Where is your speech freedom ? :)
I don't tell a fib. All things I claimed are documented. We open our military and civil archives, there are evidences of Armenian Carnages.
Ok, maybe you are mongol and don't trust our governmental & military archives. I understand that because truth gives pain. However, I want to ask a question. Why hasn't Armenian Government shared its archives with us upto now? Why is Armenian Government afraid of opening their national/histortical archives? Can the prime minister of Armenian answer this question? Of course, not. Because he knows the truth, he is afraid of opening government archives. Think about it my brainwashed friend.
[deleted]
I don't know how old are you, but I claim about your level of intelligence. Your point of view there are many documents that Turkish Government haven't opened yet.
But, answer my question, "Why hasn't Armenian Government shared its archives with us upto now? Why is Armenian Government afraid of opening their national/histortical archives?". And another question, it's also very important,
Are there any neutral resources which can prove your claims :) Can you share with us :) I think you are very uninformed person or you are Armenian-nationalist. However, I think also your knowledge contains only one-sided newspapers, books or etc. Maybe you only listen System of a Down. LOL!
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akine wrote:
You are still telling the same old story while you cant even let us know one of the geograpichal coordinates of so-called genocide occured...
Go on mako, you will show the proof i hope, one day:D
And you contunie fabricate news from your ass, it is not Turkey where you say there were a genocide and they put you into jail but france and swiss where you say there didnt genocide occur you will meet the jail moron... So is this freedom of speech lol...
i dont know why i bother to answer someone so brainwashed and ignorantly propagandist like you, you do not aware anything about Turkey, current news and politics, continue to live forever in same *beep* you are living dumbass
or accept my excuse if you can give simple examples about what you wrote:
"who still to this day will put you in jail for speaking against the government.???
The police has the right to beat a man and/or kill him if he stands up against the government of Turkey???
Women do not have to cover themselves up, but they are treated lower than men.???"
What will they do to you when you say you admire Usame in USA?
What will they do to you if you try to blow up somewhere in Cali, with a car full with explosives?
How much salary do women get after they work an hour in Us.?
How much salary do men get after they work an hour Us.?
try to clean your own *beep* before throwing some your own to us
Your questions are irrelevant as when have you seen any Christian commit crimes via bombs? Arabs, Turks, Kazakhstanis, Palestinians do...matter of fact, most people who believe in Allah & Mohammed commit these crimes against humanities.
Stop talking nonsense, habib.
Abdul Hamid was responsible for massacring 300,000 Armenians in 1890's. He was even hated by the Turkish people themselves, who kicked him off his throne in 1908. It was perfectly justified if some Armenians tried to kill him. You need to apologize to Armenians for criticising his assassination attempt.
shareTigran, if you start a revolution or uprising, death should be one of the consequences someone might get...
1890 (June, 20) Revolt of Erzurum (July) Kumkapi Demonstration.First Sason Revolt.
1892 – 1893 Merzifon, Kayseri and Yozgat Revolts
1895 (September, 30) Sublime Porte (Government’s Gate) Event Istanbul.(November) The Armenian attempt for a revolt in Maras.
1896 (October, 30) Armenian Uprising in Istanbul (June, 1) First Van Revolt(August, 26) Raid of the Ottoman Bank
if you dont believe me ,now start rioting at your waterbed cali, and watch how many of you will get killed by US. army
yes tigran you pwned again
Sorry, but copy-paste from bogus Turkish sites doesn't count.
Even if these events happened (which they probably didn't), you can't massacre innocent civilians. Hamid did, and it was only justified for Armenians to kill him. You should thank Armenians for it. The irony is that Hamid was deposed (and shortly died) by the Turkish people themselves, who could no longer take his oppression.
The Armenia Genocide occured in Turkey. It's not our fault that you can't find the coordinates of your country.
As for your question about human rights in the US, they merely demonatrate your ignorance of principles of democracy, which is a result of you living in a repressive country (i.e. Turkey). Let me educate you:
- If you say you admire Osama in the USA, you may be considered a wacko, but you won't be arrested.
- If you say you believe in the Armenian Genocide in Turkey, or if you try to speak Kurdish, you will get arrested, or your house will be bombed. That's the difference between a democracy like US, and a repressive psedo-state like Turkey.
- If you blow up a car in the US, you get arrested.
- if you (in Turkey) blow up the house of someone who admits the Genocide (e.g. Zarakolu), you only get encouraged by your government. Again, that's the difference between a free country (US, and Armenia), and a repressive one (e.g. Turkey).
tiggy how old are you 4 or 6 ? I think 5 and half you must BE STUPID or we can say KING OF THE STUPIDS because of being the most stupid one ever.In Turkey nobody arrested talking another language like kurdish.this is just bull *beep* if someone blow up house smthg else what IDIOCITY is this you said encougraged by goverment who believes this *beep* hehaehaehaea.Where are you from ı must see you ı must examine you .your brain damaged ı think do you crashed it on the wall or is this a hobby of you crashing your head on walls.Thanks for laugh...hahahaeheeahaehah
share@MakaveliReturns
Your questions are irrelevant as when have you seen any Christian commit crimes via bombs? Arabs, Turks, Kazakhstanis, Palestinians do...matter of fact, most people who believe in Allah & Mohammed commit these crimes against humanities.
Stop talking nonsense, habib.
@MakaveliReturns
You're one of the 8 people on this forum that do not agree with the Genocide because your government has brainwashed your dumb ass. The other million members have seen scientific facts & documents and these people have the capacity to understand the reality instead of listening to these fabrications given by their family members and of course the government of Turkey, who still to this day will put you in jail for speaking against the government. The police has the right to beat a man and/or kill him if he stands up against the government of Turkey. Is this what you call freedom? Women do not have to cover themselves up, but they are treated lower than men. Is this how freedom is supposed to be?
-------
Such an idiot! How can you forget Khojaly Genocide (26 Feb '92)? Have you ever known how many civil people murdered by Armenian Army? If you have an opportunity to kill Turks, you will always do this. Have you ever heard Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA)? LOL! Maybe look at here learn something http://www.nuhun.net/xocali/index_en.html
My fool friend, you cannot say Turkey anything about speech freedom. We have just told you, your greatest collaborator , France (maybe your father :), doesn't have speech freedom. A fresh event please read this http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&trh=20060509&hn=32954
My moron friend, Turkish women have all human rights, they can live in freedom more much than your country Europe, US, since 1934. Moronkaveli, the European Countries, which you admire of like your father, hadn't given these rights to their women in 1934, after years they gave. Before your recognition of women rigts, we had already recognize.
You have never tough us anything related to fredom, civilized countries, etc.
I'm sorry for my English, maybe it is not good enough. However, I'm now happy with this. It helps me to see how a cavemen you are. According to you if you don't speak English well, you are uneducated.
Moronkaveli I can speak German as a German person, if you can speak German, we will speak German :)
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TigranTheGreat as a Canadian I have to tell that you are here to provoke people. I have had Turkish and Armenian friends (Toronto is very multinational)...
I dont ever remember Turks talking about Armenians, how bad they are or what they did to them but whenever I am with my Armenian friends (one of them is my closest friend in this world) I sense this Turkish hatered.
I will have to say please "get over it". Constantly blaming a country just makes Armenians seems jealous for a rason I don't understand. You have your country, they have theirs please stop this.
Yes Turks may have been very furious in the past, maybe even barbaric but we live in 21st century, it is a global world now, education levels are up and no more barbaric acts like the past.
I'm not sure if you are familiar with the country Azerbijan... It is a Turkish country (I mean the origin of the country is Turkish) and Armenia invaded it's soil not long ago and said that a mass killing of the Azeri people happened in the villages.
I dont see any Turk trying to put that in your nose.
Please Turks and Armenians ---- GET OVER IT
<<Yes Turks may have been very furious in the past, maybe even barbaric but we live in 21st century, it is a global world now, education levels are up and no more barbaric acts like the past.>>
Are you for real? No more barbaric acts like the past?? Have you ever heard of Darfur? If you haven't, then please lock yourself in a room with some books and newspapers and don't come out until you're a little wiser.
Genocide is STILL TO THIS DAY being perpretrated by governments in countries globally, and the refusal to accept past genocides certainly does not help matters any.
If we as civilized humankind fail to learn from our history, we are doomed to repeat it.
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Khilafah:
Armenians "adopted" Christianity. They "chose" to become a Christian nation. You can't say the same for the majority of Islam, as most "Muslims" were "converted by the sword." That is a fact. You, yourself, most likely, are the product of such a conversion. I'm not saying that you are, but it is highly -- highly -- probable that you are.
The idea (if it's that) you hold of Islam as a "way of life" says more than enough for the rest of us to prevent its expansion, just as we are witnessing global acts against it today. The world has grown intolerant of Islam and much of it is due to that idea. Islam as a way of life -- or "religion" for that matter -- is the beginning of the end. Religion should never affect public life, should never have a presence in public life. It is a private matter, and there is where it should be confined.
As for Armenia (Armenians) having a place as a great historical civilization (like the Muslims), if you don't believe it, look up "the cradle of civilization." Islam has not contributed to a positive world culture and progress, as much as you desperately choose to believe that it has. Again, that's "blind faith," so it makes sense that you would believe in such nonsense. Also, you can't compare Islam with Armenia; it would be tantamount to comparing Mohammad to Jesus, and that is an abomination: One (Jesus) was pure, preached goodness, and lived it as an example; the other (Mohammad) was impure and murdered in great numbers.
You have much hatred in you, Khilafah. BTW, I "suspect" that you are MakRefurns. Why not? You've shown so much hatred on this board, and there are similarities in your statements. That's not proof or anything, but it's a valid view.
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Not much for a psychic aren't you? Oh, and that little "empire" is a fake. No one's talking about ancient age kiddo. We're talking about now. Besides, that was a sh*tty sized empire for the ancient times. You should be ashamed. Now, what's an Armenian again?
By the way, nice cute girl on your profile? Is that you? You sound like a girl
I the Bronze Knee Cap! With my deadly Bronze Knee Cap!
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Why do these peanut brained morons such as this Jack-in-the-Box character and OsamaPilaf keep hiding their identity? What's your ethnicity? Ashamed of yourself? Obviously your religion must be Islam because you seem to be on my tail right after OsamaPilaf responded.
Also it doesn't seem like Islam is winning anything...matter of fact, Muslims haven't won anything since.....hey wait a minute, I don't remember the last time they won anything because IT WAS THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO
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Ah, explains everything...... you're a racist
All races, Arabs, Persians, Gauls, Romans, w/e you want to name have been around just as long as Armenians pal.
I read the thing. Nothing great about Armenia. It's minor civilizations were absorbed by Persians and Romans. After converting to Christianity there was little time when they actually controlled their own land. So they were conquered by Europeans, Muslims, and recently, Soviets. Armenia's been independent for only 15 years! Nice try, you commie, but Armenia ain't great.
I the Bronze Knee Cap! With my deadly Bronze Knee Cap!
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Let me guess, your friend (or butt buddy, as you'd call it) basically lost a debate on this forum, so he asked you, a white American (let me guess, Irish?) to help him out.
Did I figure it out correctly, or are you going to post more B/S so I can enjoy laughing at your mediocre replies?
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Just shut up with it. This is a man's house, take your kiddie games somewhere else
So your friend asked you to defend the Turks...because he thought that a white Americans voice is stronger than a Turks? LMFAO.
It's mind boggling that these morons continue to embarrass themselves day after day by doing stupid things such as getting their teenage white friend to help defend the "honorable" Turks.
So how did I 'prove' that I am 12-15? Did you check my ID to make sure that I am in this age group?
And, "dude", why do you care about the links in my profile? Are you being a detective yourself here, or do you really care about me that much? Sorry, I don't swing that way.
The American education system sucks. I hope you go to school and hop off Prozac because I don't want another Columbine.
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Everyone here knows how crazy you are. Really, you are crazy. You can't even see your own bad points. My "What is an Armenian" question was rhetorical, indicating that Armenia is nothing special. Armenians are a mix of Greeks and Iranians really. Ain't nothing to your race that makes you superior, or any other for that matter. And Americans are a race. If I applied your whacked up logic correctly then Armenians aren't a race either.
You're little doll liana isn't gonna solve anything Big Mak. I'm gonna keep f uckin with a retard like you until you can get your head screwed on right ok?
I the Bronze Knee Cap! With my deadly Bronze Knee Cap!
run along now lil girl this doesn't concern you
I the Bronze Knee Cap! With my deadly Bronze Knee Cap!
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Don't be so serious like it matters. It's only IMDB little girl. You're an anon, and so is your great "armenian" pal.
I the Bronze Knee Cap! With my deadly Bronze Knee Cap!
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MakReturns:
I would never consider the notion that there are "white boys" (btw, respectfully, Armenians are white also:)) on this board that would enter into a debate against Armenians and/or the Armenian genocide.
I would wager that this "newcomer" is "related" to the Turkish denial circle, by ethnicity and/or nationality, if the answer is not choice "D."
It's a waste of time to respond to such idiocy -- and it's far beneath the main topic of this board. Ignore the poster and/or report on the poster, and forget about it. :)
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KhilafahOsmaniya: As I said, I HIGHLY doubt it. The Armenians were pagans in their old societies, and they became Christian en masse due to Christian indoctrination by the Romans and Byzantines who conquered them.Is that what your "gut" tells you? Thank goodness that, at least, historians base their writings on facts. Armenians weren't forced to accept Christianity, as it has been documented. You "HIGHLY doubt it" because you aren't able to accept the unquestionable fact that Christianity was "adopted" (a matter of "choice") by the Armenians a number of years (over a decade) before the Roman Empire. Yet, for some reason, I believe that you will continue to "doubt" this historical fact.
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I'm going to type in bold for you since you've been severely deluded: Armenians were not "forced" to convert. They retained a great deal of religious freedom in Muslim lands, as with ALL ethnicities conquered by the Caliphate. Armenians have the right to choose w/e religion they want. And Islam gives them that choice. I've talked to Armenian Muslims, and just for a real fact my friend, which you have yet to present [] , Armenians are not in any "crusade" or bulwark against Muslims.
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I never said that the Turks (Ottoman Empire) did not allow them to prosper. Indeed, the Sivas province's 33 bankers were 31 Armenian, one Greek and one Jew. However, that did not mean the Turks did not impose ridiculous taxes such as the kishlik tax or the military exemption, head, and poll taxes or bar Armenian witnesses in Islamic courts and have their testimony be inadmissable whenever they brought a charge against a Muslim. Most Armenians and non-Muslims for that matter were considered unreliable to defend the name of Islam until the 1912 Balkans war.
Toleration for a religion did not necessarily translate to be a good thing.
How could you possibly say that families joyingly gave up their children to be Islamized and never to be heard from again? Of course many Turks tried to pose their children as Christians but the main reason any Christian would have done that was so that they could advance through society. Devshirmeh was a tax, not an offering:
"Devshirmeh was the system of collection of young boys from conquered Christian lands by the Ottoman sultans as a form of regular taxation in order to build a loyal slave army (formerly largely composed of war captives) and class of (military) administrators: the Janissaries, or other servants such as tellak in hamams. The word devşirme means "collecting, gathering" in Ottoman Turkish."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devshirmeh
They would forcibly take the best, strongest and brightest children, never to be heard again.
I pretend to work because the Soviet government pretends to pay me.
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You've acknowledged that a Genocide occurred in 1915, which is something far more admirable and respectable than I have seen amongst some of the other Turks here. People like you are thus the modern-day Ahmed Rizas, the Damad Ferid Pashas and the other nameless, sometimes ordinary, Turks who risked their lives to save Armenians in 1915 (aghas, each and every one of them). I may be assuming incorrectly here but you also seem to reject the nationalist zeal that encompasses Turkey and its cult worship of Mustapha Kemal.
I feel that you cling somewhat too much on the Ottoman Empire but I suppose its no more than I with the Soviet Union. (By the way, I also have a modest command of the Turkish language)
I pretend to work because the Soviet government pretends to pay me.
"I feel that you cling somewhat too much on the Ottoman Empire but I suppose its no more than I with the Soviet Union. (By the way, I also have a modest command of the Turkish language) "
I think there is a difference. They identify themselves with the Ottoman Empire because it was their great grandfathers.
The Soviet Union is a Russian thing and Armenians would be fighting them instead of joining if things were different. I can understand that my ancestors were in desperate need of an ally.
And also, I don't know Turkish society well enough to understand them. There are those who hate us and those who talk about the genocide and say it's a taboo subject.
I think it is a question of time. If Turkey joins the EU, it may even change more quickly but EU members need to put some real pressure on Turkey and force a change of government. However, changing the minds of the people is another matter.
It has been going in one direction (hate all Armenians) for generations.
How could that be changed?
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Khilafah:
Nearly every piece of information (as it relates to "facts") that you've posted, from as long as I've been here -- information that you regard as such -- has very little, if any, to do with the actual state of the matter. If my "rhetoric" doesn't serve to answer the question (about the Armenians and their "adopting" Christianity), then put some effort into the matter and research it for yourself. You'll soon discover just how wrong you've been all along. :)
As for the Armenians who were converted by the sword (to Islam): Perhaps, then, you should research the Hamshin (sp.) Armenians. It is just another fact that you may refuse to accept (What a surprise!), but history is more than clear about it.
Friend, you're in complete denial about Islam. As for myself, I wouldn't dare hide the fact that I find your "religion" to be utterly disgusting; but I find those who place religion over one's bloodline to be even more disgusting.
Once again, as a lesson to you: Religion is a matter of choice; ethnicity is a matter of blood; you can choose one, but not the other.
Oh, and if you choose to believe that I am an Armenian -- Heck, why not?! -- go for it! From now on, I am "Varl, the Armenian." BTW, that's not really my name. You're not going to reject that claim, too, are you? :)
"Toleration for a religion did not necessarily translate to be a good thing."
Varl, I believe you keep forgetting that we are talking about several centuries ago. Think about the level of tolerance in Europe that time. Racism is the least think you can blame Islam and Ottomans about. They did not care about race at all.
"As for the Armenians who were converted by the sword (to Islam): Perhaps, then, you should research the Hamshin (sp.) Armenians"
I was in Hamshin (Camlihemsin) this summer for a trekking tour. Unbelievable nature...They do not think that they are converted Armenians. They feel uncomfortable about being believed so...
"They feel uncomfortable about being believed so..."
Just like the muslims converts in Bosnia .
Welcome to the Christian Board
( bashing-free )
http://com5.runboard.com/bshjihm
Ersoy-2: I was in Hamshin (Camlihemsin) this summer for a trekking tour. Unbelievable nature...They do not think that they are converted Armenians. They feel uncomfortable about being believed so...Ask those same people (about how they feel) in the safety of a non-Turkish and non-Islamic country. I'd just about guarantee sentiments/views contrary to yours.
ARMENIAN CONVERTS IN TURKEY BRAVELY AVOW THEIR NATIONALITYYou just have to dig around, and you'll find more articles to this point. The extent of Turkish brainwashing is beyond disturbing. Turkey needs an educational revolution.
The oppressed minorities of Turkey, most of whom evaded genocides by passing into Islam, are getting bolder in their speeches and activities as the country bids for the EU. The Greeks of Pontos, Assyrians, Arabs and especially Armenians of Hamshen, Mush, Sassoon, Vardo, Zakho and other regions who were "turned into" Kurds and Muslims are living days of wakening. The latter sent a delegation to take part in the rally of European Armenians in front of the European Parliament last September. Afterwards, excited by the ongoing pressures on Turkey to recognize the Armenian Genocide, the Armenian converts give interviews to French, German, Belgian, Turkish and Armenian newspapers.
We called the "mother" of "Kurdized" Armenians and Hamshen Armenians in Germany historian and political scientist Alis (Aliye) Alt to get information on these issues. He said from his Frankfurt apartment which is in effect is a castle for preserving the Armenianhood: "We always follow your articles on Hamshen Armenians and Armenian converts. Thanks to the influence of these articles that are often posted on the Internet, hundreds of lost Hamshen Armenians who feared to reveal their identity in past get in touch with us now. Certainly, the important reforms that took place in Turkey under the EU's pressure and... the threat that a Kurdish state will emerge forced Turkey's state circles to be a little more democratic with the free press and mass media. We call on the Armenians of Armenia and Diaspora to provide care for their brothers and sisters who were forcefully converted and who number 1.5 million in Turkey. Time is ripe for a conference to assemble all Armenians who are willing to get out of forced isolation, reveal their identity and tell about their 90 years long persecutions in European institutions. This is to be an all-Armenian initiative with contribution from all organizations", the author of "Hamshen Armenians in the Mirror of History" tells.
Simon Geonden is from Karmir Khach village of Mush who currently lives in Wiesenbaden. He lived the greatest half of his life as a converted "Kurd" but returned to his roots due to the Kurdish national awakening. Emigrating to Germany as a student, he got in touch with national minorities from Turkey, including Armenian Genocide survivors.
"We are hopeful that the European Armenians will be more kind to us. Some people have morbid understanding of the converts and want to see everything settled in a few days. Time will solve all our issues and will heal our deep wounds", Simon Geonden said.
By Hamo Moskofian in Frankfort-Wiesbaden
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Khilafah:
You'll probably find the following article to be an interesting reading.
2 converts in Turkey charged under free speech restrictionshttp://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=24326 share
Nov 3, 2006
By Staff
Baptist Press
ISTANBUL, Turkey (BP)--A Turkish prosecutor has filed criminal charges against two converts to Christianity, accusing them of “insulting Turkishness,” inciting hatred against Islam and secretly compiling data on private citizens for a local Bible correspondence course, according to an Oct. 31 report by Compass Direct News, a Christian news agency based in Santa Ana, Calif. news service.
Hakan Tastan, 37, and Turan Topal, 46, joined the ranks of 97 other Turkish citizens taken to court in the last 16 months over alleged violations of the country’s controversial Article 301 restricting freedom of speech, Compass reported.
The attorney for the two Christians, Haydar Polat, said a state prosecutor in the Silivri Criminal Court filed a formal indictment against Tastan and Topal on Oct. 12. If convicted, the accused men could be sentenced from six months to three years in prison, Compass reported, noting that the first hearing for the trial is set for Nov. 23 in Silivri, 45 miles west of Istanbul along the Marmara Sea coast. Polat told Compass the trial could be expected to continue for a year or more.
Citing articles 301, 216 and 135 of the Turkish penal code, the indictment accuses the defendants of approaching grade school children and high school students in Silivri and attempting to convert them to Christianity, Compass reported.
According to the written charges, the three plaintiffs, identified as 23-year-old Fatih Kose, 16-year-old Alper and Oguz, 17, claimed the two Christians had called Islam a “primitive and fabricated religion” and had described Turks as a “cursed people,” Compass reported.
They also accused Tastan and Topal of opposing the Turkish military, encouraging sexual misconduct and procuring funds from abroad to entice young people in Silivri to become Christians. Tastan and Topal deny all charges, Compass reported.
Neither of the men knew they were under investigation until Oct. 11, when two carloads of gendarme officials appeared with a search warrant at Tastan’s home at 8 a.m., Compass recounted. The officers informed Tastan that a complaint had been made against him claiming he had unlicensed guns and was conducting illegal missionary activities, Compass reported. While Tastan and his wife and two small children looked on, according to the Compass report, the search team spent two hours combing their apartment in Buyukcekmece, on the western outskirts of Istanbul.
“Now let’s go to your office and find Turan,” the soldiers told Tastan, instructing him to call Topal and ask him to stay at the office until he arrived, without explaining why, Compass reported. Tastan was surprised that they knew his office address and the name of his office partner; he later learned that a Silivri prosecutor had given the gendarme written permission to follow, photograph and secretly tape them for one month, according to Compass.
After searching the small bureau in Istanbul’s Taksim district, the gendarme confiscated two computers and an array of books and papers, Compass reported. They then loaded the two Christians into their vehicles and drove them back to Silvri, the news agency said.
After hours of interrogation by military intelligence officials, the two men were released for the night and ordered to return the next morning to complete the investigation, Compass reported. By the end of Oct. 12, they reportedly had recorded their formal statements before the prosecutor.
Both men said they had categorically denied all the accusations against them, Compass reported, noting that the charges apparently are based on three or four trips they had made to Silivri months ago to meet a teacher and several high school students who had contacted an Istanbul-based Bible correspondence course requesting a visit.
“It’s all lies,” Topal told Compass. “Someone is trying to make us look like a Christian tarikat [banned religious sect].” He said one of the gendarme officials told him he was accused of having weapons, forming illegal cell groups, evangelizing children and trying to destroy the secular state of Turkey.
Topal, who became a Christian 17 years ago, told Compass that the gendarme interrogators that he was innocent, “but I am doing missionary work. I am a Christian evangelist and I don’t deny that. So you can put me in jail for that, if you want. But you know what I’m doing is not against the law.”
A Christian for 12 years, Tastan said he told the prosecutor, “I am a Christian and I am a Turk. I will keep on sharing my faith. We are not ashamed to be Christians and we are not hiding anything.”
Tastan said he worked part-time at a printing house and gave the rest of his time to Christian ministry, Compass reported.
Just four days after the two were released, the mass-circulation Hurriyet newspaper gave front-page coverage to the Silivri investigation under the headline, “Gendarme raid missionary office,” Compass reported.
Declaring that parents of Silivri students had complained that the two men were promoting missionary activities among grade school students, the Oct. 16 article claimed that their office, linked with the Taksim Protestant Church, had compiled names and detailed private data on 5,000 citizens in Turkey’s Marmara region.
Topal said the claims are absurd, but news clips based on the Hurriyet release were broadcast that same day on TGRT television and the local TV music channel, Compass reported.
The next morning, an article in the Islamic Zaman newspaper linked the Christians’ arrest and interrogations with a Turkish draft-dodger who had hijacked a Turkish Airlines plane two weeks before flying from Albania to Istanbul, Compass reported. Claiming he was a Christian and a conscientious objector, Izmir-born Hakan had appealed to Pope Benedict XVI for asylum, according to the news service.
According to Zaman, “... it was confirmed that the hijacker had ties with Tastan and Topal.” The Oct. 17 article stated that the men had confessed in their formal statements that they knew Ekinci and that he had led Protestant missionary activities in the Aegean region of Turkey.
After examining the legal file against Tastan and Topal, Isa Karatas, spokesman for the Alliance of Protestant Churches in Turkey, commented to Compass, “There is no legal proof. It only contains verbal allegations, without any evidence.”
Karatas told Compass he considered it “a violation of democratic rights” for the gendarme team to raid and search a private home and office “without a single piece of evidence –- and then pass on this destructive and unsubstantiated information to the media.”
Meanwhile, the European Union has reiterated its demand that Turkey either amend or scrap Article 301, which prohibits “insulting Turkishness.”
EU critics complain that the law fails to define “Turkishness,” allowing prosecutors to issue widely varying legal interpretations in a rash of cases against journalists, novelists, professors and other intellectuals, according to Compass. Turkey instituted Article 301 in June 2005 as part of the country’s package of reform laws to facilitate the overwhelmingly Muslim nation’s entry into the European Union, according to the news agency.
According to Turkish media reports, Rene van der Linden, chair of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, suggested in an Oct. 26 meeting with Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul that Europe’s objections to Article 301 could outweigh even the unresolved dispute over Turkey’s refusal to open its seaports and airports to traffic from EU member Greek Cyprus, Compass reported
But the government insists that the issue focuses on “implementation” of the law, arguing that the courts have yet to send anyone to jail for alleged speech restriction violations, according to Compass.
Although several prominent defendants have been acquitted, including this year’s Nobel prize-winning novelist Orhan Pamuk, dozens of trials still are pending in the courts. A number of cases focus on comments regarding the Turkish state’s denial of what it terms the “alleged genocide” of Armenians by the Ottoman Empire in 1915, Compass reported.
Another acquittal was handed down in May to two professors who prepared a controversial report for a parliamentary sub-commission regarding minority and cultural rights, according to the news agency. The report maintained that non-Muslims in particular were subject to discrimination in Turkey and sometimes treated as foreigners rather than equal Turkish citizens.
The report, accused by nationalists of being treasonous, was disowned by the government and never published, according to Compass Direct.
--30--
Compass Direct News, based in Santa Ana, Calif., focuses on Christians worldwide who are persecuted for their faith. Used by permission.
Wasn't Khalifah on our side a few months ago? What happened?
Modern Turkey is an anti-Islamic state. We Armenians can use that to our advantage to spread the truth and expose the Kemal's fairy-tales among Turkey's Islamic population.
I feel that its collapse resulted in the loss of many things that the State provided: universal health care, free education, high literacy levels and great regard for sciences and the arts, the upholding of conservative values and things like that. The Armenian SSR was one of the most productive and the most patriotic and ebullient members of communism next to the RSFSR. The Armenian SSR sacrificed 300,000 of its men during the Second World War, had one of its indivduals design and co-found the MiG aircraft, pioneering in astronmy and space design; we were contributing a great deal to the advancement of a superpower.
I never liked any of the Soviet leaders (except Khruschev), least of all Mikhail Gorbachev and yes, while freedom was limited, church attendance admonished and we did not have private lives, people remained happy for the most part since democracy never remained a great concern for us. The Soviets after all, had saved Armenia in 1921 (despite the fact they helped Kemal and gave away Kars, Igdir, Ardahan all because they thought the port city of Batumi was much more valuable than some tall mountain with no natural resources around it).
Starting from Stalin down, socialism for Armenia drifted downward. While I feel certain things that
It depends on which Armenians you ask, some feel that Armenia and the other Republics unveiled their dark Soviet cloaks, many still feel nostalgic of the old days. I'm happy that Armenia is independent today, but if only the USSR was managed the way it was envisioned to, ease on personal freedoms, free of corruption and unsuppresive of other nationalities, things would been much better.
I pretend to work because the Soviet government pretends to pay me.
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I feel Armenia, currently is doing well despite the fact that it suffers from numerous problems. As a SSR, things were still considered good or "normal". Lenin, brought forth the deaths of millions during his quest to achieve communism in Russia, but after Lenin realized that war communism was not going to work he advocated NEP but was unable to fully implement it after he was debilitated in the early 1920s. My impression of him is at best, mixed.
I was born in Yerevan but lived in Abovyan, several kilometers north of the city.
I pretend to work because the Soviet government pretends to pay me.
KhilafahOsmaniya: But of course, his racism and denial makes incorrigible so he wouldn't know betterWho are you kidding, me or yourself?
PROF. BERT VAUX OF HARVARD SPEAKS ONhttp://www.commercemarketplace.com/home/naasr/Vaux-release.htm
DIALECT OF MUSLIM ARMENIANS AT NAASR
The Armenian dialect of the Hamshen, a mostly Muslim and little-known group of Armenian origin living along the Black Sea in Turkey and Abkhazia in Georgia, was the topic of a lecture by Harvard University professor of linguistics Bert Vaux on June 7 at the National Association for Armenian Studies and Research Center in Belmont, Mass.
Few people are aware of these people, who in all number several hundred thousand worldwide. The Armenian community is largely unaware of this group to whom they are related ethnically and whose language, called Homshetsma by its speakers, is closely related to standard Western Armenian.
In his talk, Prof. Vaux focused on the Muslim or Eastern Hamshen (or Hemshinli) of Northeast Turkey. Vaux has done extensive fieldwork with Hamshen living in the United States, including the Boston area.
Originally from Ayrarat District of Armenia
Explaining that the Hamshen derive their name from a village of the same name in Northeastern Turkey, near Rize, which seems to have been itself derived from an Armenian prince Haman Amatuni who came there with migrants from the Ayrarat district in the eighth century A.D., Vaux then proceeded to detail the striking similarities and noteworthy differences between the language Homshetsma and standard Armenian.
Vaux, with Hagop Hachikian of Belmont, has developed a means of writing Homshetsma using Turkish orthography (as opposed to the Armenian alphabet, which is unknown to the Muslim Hamshen). Drawing on the audience's knowledge of Armenian, he presented a number of Hamshen words, phrases, and eventually an Armenian folktale in Homshetsma. Audience members were able to identify certain words based on their similarity to their familiar Armenian, or in some case Turkish forms.
Puzzling Riddles and Unfamiliar Names
One of the more entertaining examples of Homshetsma language which Vaux presented was a series of perplexing riddles, which not only gave a sense of the language but also provided something of a window into the culture. The riddles, the answers to which seemed to bear only a passing relationship to the questions, are in fact, he explained, characteristic of the sometimes impenetrable (to the outsider) world of traditional Armenian riddle culture. One of the riddles, translated, goes "I put a sieve full of egg on the roof." The answer is "Star."
Another window into the forces shaping the culture is provided by Hamshen personal names, which are mostly unfamiliar to Armenians. Their names do not generally have Armenian roots but rather are generally related to Turkish or Georgian names (which are languages unrelated to Armenian). Indeed, there is a strong South Caucasian and Turkish aspect to Hamshen language and culture, which is hardly surprising given their geographical location.
Conversion to Islam But Some Christian Elements Remain
Vaux explained that while there were forced conversions of the Hamshen to Islam from the 16th century down to the 1915 Genocide, the language preserves the memory of the people's Christian past to an extent; for the most part, though, Christian elements noticeably have been purged. Yet, although the language has been mostly de-Christianized, the Hamshen still observe the Armenian Christian New Year (celebrated on the day of Epiphany), the Armenian Christian feast of Vartivar, and the language retains the Armenian Christian word for God, Asdvadz. In addition, down to this century, it was reported that some Hamshen still performed baptisms.
Vaux played an audiotape of one of his field research subjects telling a folktale called "Temel's Head" in the Homshetsma dialect. Although the audience had difficulty following the spoken language, due to changes in pronunciation, the written version proved more recognizable. The story is actually a variant of a well-known satirical Armenian folktale called "The Priest's Head" - only stripped of its Christian elements. The folktale, then, stands in miniature for the larger relationship between Homshetsma and standard Armenian.
Question of Identity
Vaux concluded by posing a question to the audience which prompted a good deal of discussion: Are the Hamshen Armenians? Opinions from the audience varied; but this was perhaps to be expected given that opinions vary even among the Hamshen themselves. Some of them privately acknowledge their Armenian identity or roots, but publicly few will do so. Others consider themselves to be Turks or Laz.
There are, it was pointed out, important political factors at play in Turkey which would discourage the Hamshen from openly professing their Armenian origins. One aspect of their identity which singles them out from other Armenians who have lived in Turkey is the fact that they were left largely unaffected by the Genocide.
Scholar of Armenian Dialects
Prof. Vaux has done extensive research on the Armenian language, especially documentation, preservation, and analysis of nonstandard dialects, including that of the Hemshinli. He is the author of The Phonology of Armenian, a major study of Armenian linguistics published by Oxford University Press. In addition to articles on Armenian linguistics and dialectology, he is the author of the forthcoming The Armenian Dialect of New Julfa and forthcoming textbooks of Eastern and Western Armenian. He also is the author of a chapter on the Hamshen language in the forthcoming book The Hemshinli, edited by Hovann Simonian, as well as a lengthy article on the subject in the forthcoming issue of NAASR's Journal of Armenian Studies.
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Well, of course, it's an Armenian source. By your logic, I shouldn't be able to trust itAnd there you have it, Khilafah. That's the gist of your arguments.
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You've got it wrong, Khilafah: It's that the truth is on the side of the Armenians. I reject Turkish sources that present information that are contrary to the evidence. The majority of Turkish sources have been refuted by the majority of scholars/historians. Ask yourself how even Turkish scholars are lining up on the side of the truth. Please, with your blind faith! It's burying you deeper and deeper, and the time will come where I won't even bother to extend a hand to help you out of your hole.
Take a seat, friend. There is hardly anything right about you. Blind faith has made you more than blind.
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Khilafah:
I can't back this up with any actual support (unless someone, an Armenian, chimes in), but I think it's not a stretch to say that the Armenians would rather do without genocide "supporters" like yourself. I tend to think that the Armenians reject the company of supporters who speak from both sides of their mouth.
You can claim to support genocide recognition until you are blue in the face, but your true color shines as bright as the sun. You say that there was a genocide, but that the Armenians weren't all that innocent. You say that the Armenians were victims to an extent, but they aren't a people of a great civilization. There is more to this point, but you understand what I mean. With every bit of seeming support that you express towards recognition of the genocide, there has been that ineffectively visible amount of patronization towards the Armenians and their history.
I wish some of the Armenians of this board would speak out directly on this subject (of your false support). You, friend, are a hypocrite in the only sense.
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"Modern Turkey is an anti-Islamic state. We Armenians can use that to our advantage to spread the truth and expose the Kemal's fairy-tales among Turkey's Islamic population"
If you convert first, you can be even more effective.
Armenia keep loosing it's population, because of bleeding its citizens to other countries, (Turkey to be one of them), looks like your only hope remaining for your nations future regarding population increase; reconverting Armenian converts. You are playing with too much conversions, without knowing any thing about maths.
You are in a desperate situation ...
Nobody cares about their ethnic origine beyond a few generations in Turkey. In fact, everybody on this planet has somebody in his/her family who has converted. Either Muslim or Christian. Even Jews, a lot of Jews are converted Khazar Turks.
At least half of Western Turkey's population in this country has their family roots in European territories of the empire, and has open racial characteristics proving that. My family comes from Bulgaria but you should not expect me to become a Bulgarian nationalist...
I would not expect much from that converting issue. You guys should find more creative ideas to solve your "Turkish problem"
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KhilafahOsmaniya, I really do not understand why you have been a part of that discussion. Do you really understand why having some Armenian blood supposed to be that important? I do not care about my blood? How come they think Armenian blood so precious, they have been keeping track of every blood of it. I do not think neither me, nor you are so blood and race conscious.
One of my friends in the hospital is of Hamshin origine. One of our social democrat party leaders is also Hamshin. It has never been a subject of any argument. Believe me nobody cares abot this kind of stuff in this country.We have been a melting pot for several centuries.
I believe, being a member of the same heritage, it is the same for Egypt, you have many differet races living side by side. Blacks, Kopts, whites, Arabs etc.My step grandfather was from Libya, a very well educated person, served "in Ottoman Army, a musician playing harpsichord, a very intelligent man.We have been the part of the same great empire and we have created Ottoman Civilization together. In fact although diaspora Armenians have been denying to be a part of it, Armenians are also a part of that heritage. Hard to understand how they have become racist freaks. Maybe in order to prevent them from assimilation? That maybe necessary for some degree.
But anyway we can not understand their look towards nationality and race, Although not being a ummat fan, instead being a secular person, I can not understand either. If theirs nationalism, mine is something quite different. It is too alien for us.
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"I am against Turkish nationalism and I feel Ataturk betrayed Turkiya's Islamic identity."
Our opinions are identical in this regard .
Welcome to the Christian Board
( bashing-free )
http://com5.runboard.com/bshjihm
"I feel Ataturk betrayed Turkiya's Islamic identity."
Well, many of us are grateful to Ataturk for betraying that Islamic identity, and he did so much more than that. I wish he could have done even much more to abolish Islam from our land. I will not deny, even embrace the cultural influences of religions for all civilizations, but socially, the world doesn't need religions any more and the sooner we get rid of all religions the better. I am sorry that I won't live long enough to see a world where all churches, mosques, synagogues, temples are only museums, like ancient Greek and Roman and Egyptian temples today.
I shudder at the thought of a non-secular Turkiye. As millions of Turkish people do.
I agree with Tilki -- although I must add that it should be a matter of individual choice to follow a certain religion, which means that religion should not have an official position within a country. That is, obviously, an opinion.
There isn't much that is more dangerous than individuals who base their identity on religion. What religion does is coalesce the masses, which results in the end of progress. What if I don't wish to believe in the religion of another? What if I don't wish to believe in any religion?
I'll continue to say this: Religion is a private matter and it should stay that way.
Turkey's "Achilles' heel" (for lack of a better word) is Islam. Turkey would be a much more progressive nation without it -- and I dare say that, without it (without Islam), I couldn't imagine an Armenian genocide.
"Religion is a private matter and it should stay that way. "
For muslims or jews , religion is by definition not a private matter . Not everyone is told to "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" ...
Can you imagine the modern world without the influence of christianity ?
Welcome to the Christian Board
( bashing-free )
http://com5.runboard.com/bshjihm
AdMajoremDeiGloriam: Can you imagine the modern world without the influence of christianity ?Point made, but I tend to refer to it as "Western" influence. Just to note, some of the greatest minds of history were atheist.
KhilafahOsmaniya, I think I understand your interpretation about modern history of Muslim states and spesifically Turkey.But I assure you that, roots of Turkish Nationalism comes from another historical fact: Events started by "Lawrence of Arabia". Ummat rhetoric have lost its popularity in my people's mind after that events. I do not now how your "Turkish" Islamists feel about the events of my nation have experienced in Arabia?
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He has a point Khilafah, despite the fact that the Young Turks were fierce secularists and that religion was never the primary casus belli for the Genocide, they were able to persuade devout Muslims that they have the honor and duty of slaughtering Armenians and Christians as even the Sheik-ul-Islam issued a fatwa of waging Jihad against the Armenians; this compounded by the numerous times Turks mocked Armenians in saying "Where is your Christ now?" when killing/torturing them.
I pretend to work because the Soviet government pretends to pay me.
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Khilafah:
You're a character out of a farce-comedy. You don't even realize just how foolish you are. The joke isn't on you; it's that the joke is you. No insult here; just a fact. You're ridiculous. You don't have any capacity to make valid arguments. Your position is: "If I say it, then it must be so."
Friend, Islam is eating at you from your core. Because of it, you reject reality, and that has taken a devastating effect on you. Poor you.
You couldn't argue your way out of a paper bag. There isn't any truth in you. Your two-faced support of certain issues doesn't change the fact that one of those faces is blinded by faith and, therefore, rejects reality.
Grow up. I don't come here to "win" an argument, as though this were a contest. Weak minds think that way. This is about exposing facts -- the truth -- and you hardly possess any of it. Having a discussion with you is like trying to make sense with an infant, but the difference is that you're a lost cause.
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Khalifa: After Kemal came to power, the only accomplishments he managed to make was transforming a once great nation, the beacon and sword/shield of Islam, the Ottoman Empire into a western puppet state. In Turkiya you can't say a word about him or "Turkishness" without being arrested. Face it, you are the victim of a personality cult, and many Turkish Muslims I met Istanbul can tell you that yourself. Since Ataturk, the Turkish economy has slide downwards, the government is a autocratic state run mostly by the military now, and the racism that Kemalism brings about is horrendous. The product of this is prejudices towards Kurds, and the denial of the Armenian Genocide.
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"We'd all be better off without religion in every aspect of our lives."
I respectfully disagree . The communists tried that , and failed . Now the choice is simple - given the extremely low birthrate of the secular people , Europe can go in the long run towards christianity or islam . Just choose wisely :)
P.S Christianity , unlike islam or the jewish faith , has the separation between church and state written in the Word .
Welcome to the Christian Board
( bashing-free )
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"Christianity , unlike islam or the jewish faith , has the separation between church and state written in the Word"
Obviously it was "written" AFTER Luther and by protestants. Before reformation there was nothing like that. It is a well known fact that most precious values of west were created as a reaction to church's tyranny during middle ages of Europe. democracy and human right to be one of them.
But unfortunately, as you well know, religious fanatics and bigots are waiting to return the history's wheels back. Both Muslim or Christian.
Secular muslims and christians may well live side bt side but not religious fanatics!
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onurlu, you are exhibitting the same severe ignorance of your fellow Turkish denialist, which of course is a result of thorough brainwashing by your government. Allow me to partially cure your ignorance:
- Armenia is headed by a President, not a Prime Minister (one of your fanatic Turkish pals still thinks US has a parliament. We Armenians had a good laugh at that. You Turks need to start working on your education).
- Armenia's archives have always been open.
- The Genocide has been proven by the overwhelming evidence present in numerous archives and witness testimonials.
- Turkey's archives are bogus--Turkey has had 90 years to purge and forge them.
Now, answer the following questions:
- Why is Turkey so afraid of the truth?
- Why does Turkey arrest, persecute, and bomb the houses of those Turks who admit the Armenian Genocide (e.g. Zarakolu)
- Why does Turkey promote hatred against Armenians, Jews, and others in its schools and media?
- When does Turkey plan to stop humiliating itself through its denialist position, and through being a repressive society?
By the way, since you asked, here are some of the many threads containing sourcing with the proof of the Genocide. The rest of the world knows about the proof, it's time that you do too.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0493264/board/thread/36001594?d=39479314#39479314
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0273435/board/thread/41655538
why dont you name the incedents instead talking about them generally in your questions? Because you are not different from Mako, un-educated propagandist...
I dont know the who the guy Zarakolu (are you sure this name isnot Zarakoludian) probably another fabrication of your side...
After all the funniest simile is that:
- If you blow up a car in the US, you get arrested.
LoL, but they shoot you dead if you steal a car and drive trough the high-way, espically you are hispanic or red-skin...
Try to make us fool next time, Tigranalittle
How shamelessly you can talk, you even cant show any sign about locations of mass graves, remember after 90 years your side couldnt dare to speak about them because you know the truth too...
@TigranTheGreat
I've just examined your url's. I don't know if these documents are really from the archives, I couldn't find any of them anywhere except Armanian Genocide Propaganda Sites. There isn't any German's cachet, or number of document. (Do you know that archive documents are numerated)
Armenia's archives have always been open.
- Give me the web-site of your archives.
- The Genocide has been proven by the overwhelming evidence present in numerous archives and witness testimonials.
Yes, we know your sources and witnesses. I'm also a witness of Armenian-Turkish events, maybe you can add my testimonials your greates Genocide Evidence, "Blue Book". Nobody knows who&where&how write Blue Book, I like your sources :)
- Turkey's archives are bogus--Turkey has had 90 years to purge and forge them.
Truth gives pain.
- Why is Turkey so afraid of the truth?
We have never been afraid of something. Turkish Government invites UN, Armenian Government and historicians in order to solve&discuss this issue. However, you have ever never accepted. Who is afraid of the truth?
- Why does Turkey arrest, persecute, and bomb the houses of those Turks who admit the Armenian Genocide (e.g. Zarakolu)
LOL! I don't know him or her. Maybe your excellent newspapers, books, sources deceive you :)
- Why does Turkey promote hatred against Armenians, Jews, and others in its schools and media?
There isn't any course in our schools to promote hatred against Armenians, Jews my brainwashed friend. If you claim there exist these courses, tell me.
- When does Turkey plan to stop humiliating itself through its denialist position, and through being a repressive society?
When does Armenia plan to stop telling lies whole world and asking for sympathy in spite of its crimes?
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the arrest of Dogu Perincek, leader of Turkey’s Workers Party. In both cases, the charge was denial of the Armenian genocide. These actions provoked various expressions of solidarity in the form of articles and petitions. Like France, Switzerland considers this denial to be a criminal offense, leading one to doubt the two countries’ sincerity in disconnecting historical research from political expediency and petty
http://www.greekworks.com/content/index.php/weblog/extended/the_historian_the_philologist_the_minister_and_the_traitors_thoughts_from_t/
If EUROPEAN!!! france and Swiss can consider denial of genocide as a criminal act. So why should Turkey close her eyes against provacations from a Greek Descendant like Zarakolu
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akine: "If EUROPEAN!!! france and Swiss can consider denial of genocide as a criminal act. So why should Turkey close her eyes against provacations from a Greek Descendant like Zarakolu"
In the statement above, we have a Turkish fanatic (in this case akine) making two confessions:
1) That Turkey does in fact consider admission of the Armenian Genocide a criminal act.
2) That, according to Turkish fanatics (who are also racists), it's ok to arrest Turkish citizens for their opinions, as long as they have Greek ancestry.
It's fun watching Turkish fanatics blurt out such confessions without realizing it. It's even more fun slapping them for it.
Read it carefully you puppet!
Akine doesn't say Turkiye does consider such an act as criminal, he says why not, if the European countries (the awfully civilized(?!) world!) DO CONSIDER SPEAKING ABOUT THE TRUTH A CRIMINAL ACT, VIOLATING FREEDOM OF SPEECH AS THEY SEE FIT?!
You are pathetic trying to play word tricks and babbling nonsense.
My advice is you go see a shrink. Go see a doctor. Tell him you get slapped a lot. And also that you support terrorism. Terrorist.
Apparently you missed the "So why should Turkey close her eyes against provacations from a Greek Descendant like Zarakolu" part. He was trying to justify Zarakolu's arrest by what Europe does. Therefore he admitted both the arrest, as well as the repressive and racist nature of Turkish society.
I never support terrorism. Turkey, on the other hand, does support and encourage Turkish terrorists, who kill Jews and other innocent civilians to this day.
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How the hell did you get those ideas from what he wrote. You sound like a lunatic Mr.
shareonurlu, the proof of the Genocide posted so far is actually taken from non-Armenian sites, such as http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4436. The German documents that I posted are not from propaganda sites (actually there are no Armenian propaganda sites--Armenians always tell the truth), but from Wolfgang Gust's book, which you can actually buy from Amazon. I made this clear in my thread so even the stupidest people would understand, but I can see even that was too hard for you.
By the way, the German archival documents contain all the reference information needed to find them in the German archives. If you are not sure about the posted versions (since brainwashing has been thorough in your case), you can go to Germany and check yourself.
You asked about courses in Turkey that teach hatred against minorities. I enjoy when Turkish fanatics get shocked when they first hear about instances of repression in Turkey (since they are usually ignorant). I tell you what. I will give you the info about one of the actual textbook used in Turkish schools to teach little Turkish fanatics hate Armenians. This is from the official US State Department report on Turkey, by the way:
In February the HRA (Human Rights Association) Istanbul branch sent a letter to the education minister protesting a poetry book published by the ministry. According to the HRA, the book, On This Path, has racist statements about Armenians, including "Are you human, you Armenian?" and "Armenian lower than a Russian." The HRA requested that the ministry remove the book from the curriculum. There were no further developments at year's end.
US State Department Report on Turkey (2005)
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61680.htm
Let's see the Turkish hatred against Armenians in action. Here is highest Turkish officials (military etc) getting into hysterical fit when they find out that their first female pilot was Armenian:
In February, the Hurriyet newspaper's publication of a report that Sabiha Gokcen--an adopted daughter of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who was the country's first female pilot--was of Armenian descent drew a number of racist public statements. The Turkish General Staff issued a statement criticizing the reports on Gokcen's Armenian ancestry as "a claim that abuses national values and feelings" while the Turkish Air Association called the report "an insult" to Gokcen and to Ataturk.
US State Department Report on Turkey (2004)
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41713.htm
Here are the deadly consequences of hatred among Turks against minorities (this time against Jews):
In March, two bombers attacked an Istanbul Masonic Lodge, killing two and wounding seven. It was widely believed in the country that Masons have Zionist and anti-Islamic tendencies; evidence gathered in the subsequent investigation suggested that anti-Semitism was at least a partial motivating factor in the attack.
State Department Report on Turkey (2004)
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41713.htm
Here is more on the deadly consequences of anti-Semitism in Turkey:
On August 21, 2003, a Jewish dentist, Dr. Y.Yahya, had been murdered in his clinic. The perpetrator confessed upon his arrest that he had wanted to kill 'a Jew' [after what he read about the Jews in the press].
MEMRI (Middle East Media Research Institute) report on Anti-Semitism in Turkey
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?ID=SP90005
It's funny how Turkish fanatics think the world doesn't know the ugly truth about their country.
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MakaveliReturns...
You are doing sarcasm... Wooowww.... Oh Yeah... Thats it! It means that you are pretty smart. If u wouldnt write "sarcasm" noone could understand. You can thank to God.. You can write, read and sometimes think a bit... Congratulations my smart friend. Maybe you need to change your nick... BugsBunnyReturns best nick for you.. (There is no sarcasm. I am so serious.)
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"Blue Book". Nobody knows who&where&how write Blue Book, I like your sources :)
To Onurlu, Im afraid a must refute your statement about the "Blue Book".
In 1916 the British Parliament published a "Blue Book" that identified the events of 1915–16 as a systematic effort to exterminate the Armenian people.
Viscount James Bryce and Arnold Toynbee were commissioned to prepare the Blue Book, which is formally known as The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1915–1916. Toynbee carefully compiled and verified dozens of eyewitness accounts from different parts of the Ottoman Empire. These accounts provided the basis for Bryce’s brilliant thesis on the Genocide, published while the crime was still in progress. The book includes eyewitness accounts from United States consular and missionary sources, as well as the testimony of German, Italian, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Greek, Kurdish, and Armenian witnesses.
Please read your comments before you post them because i would rather respond to intelligent comments.
Hey I tell you what, for all you Armenians out there. Why dont you guys go get yourselves one shovel and one bucket each, go assemble a bunch of Armenians who are for the genocide and go digging. True answers lye in history rather then from a bunch untrue sources.
For all you diggers youll be surprized to find more Turkish bodies rather than Armenians.
If one where to think logically, why would the Turkish army waste their time killing a bunch of Armenians, when the country was being invaded by from all sides.
Why would the Turkish army worry about a bunch of Armenians when their own Empire was crumbling. If so wouldnt the Turks of did the same to the Greeks or the kurds or other foreign peoples in the land at the time.
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INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS
President: Robert Melson (USA)
Vice-President: Israel Charny (Israel)
Secretary-Treasurer: Steven Jacobs (USA)
Respond to: Robert Melson, Professor of Political Science Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907 USA
April 6, 2005
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan
TC Easbakanlik
Bakanlikir
Ankara, Turkey
FAX: 90 312 417 0476
Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:
We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an “impartial study by historians” concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.
We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:
On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens – an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. Another million fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years.
The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.
The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:
1) Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.
2) The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
3) In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world’s foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.
4) 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the “incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide” and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.
5) The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.
6) Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas’s Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity.
We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide - how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history.
We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called “scholars” work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide.
We believe that it is clearly in the interest of the Turkish people and their future as a proud and equal participant in international, democratic discourse to acknowledge the responsibility of a previous government for the genocide of the Armenian people, just as the German government and people have done in the case of the Holocaust.
Sincerely,
[signed]
Robert Melson
Professor of Political Science
President, International Association of Genocide Scholars
[signed]
Israel Charny
Vice President, International Association of Genocide Scholars
Editor in Chief, Encyclopedia of Genocide
[signed]
Peter Balakian
Donald M. and Constance H. Rebar Professor of the Humanities
Colgate University
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Genocide Deniers are MORONS!
share[deleted]
You have to understand that Turkey may have some human rights issues but it is the only place that every human has equal rights.
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At last someone makes sense. Eventough I do not agree with you in some ways, you are at least honest, thank you.
share<GET OVER IT> ???
Would you get over it if you were Armenian and half your family was massacred, raped, and bludgeoned to death? I hardly think so.
Should the Jews get over the Holocaust too? Is that what you're saying?
Don't you think the Turkish denial of the fact of the Genocide is like kicking a horse when it's down? Do you think the Armenian people can actually move on and begin to heal after 90 years when the perpetrator continues to deny the truth? Shouldn't the Turkish government be at least accountable for it and distance themselves from their predecessors if they truly wanted to look to the future?
Put some thought into it, before you speak.
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Hmm.... Check out the how many intellectuals, poets, writers and journalist were persecuted, imprisoned and tortured in Turkey fir simply accepting the Armenian genocide, or for criticising the occupation of North Cyprus, or for criticising the "Turkish Nation" and then come and tell me who's opposing free speech.
Turkey cannot talk of freedom of speech. Try supporting the Armenian cause and if te government doesn't come after you, a bunch of unpunished extreme right wing "grey wolfs" will.
I just have one thing to add to this discussion, while obviously not in the same league as Turkey, Armenia's Human Right's report isn't exactly peachy either.
shareRachaella: In reference to what?
shareArmenia's a nascent former Soviet republic. Obviously things aren't going to be clean and spotless but compared to Azerbaijan or Georgia or Kazakhstan, its HR record is much more better. Turkey has been a "democratic republic" for what? over 80 years now? That's a poor comparison when you would expect Turkey to be much better when it really isn't when after tens of millions of dollars in foreign aid still haven't changed its 3rd world status.
I pretend to work because the Soviet government pretends to pay me.
In reference to massacre reports against Turks. In order to see reaction in western media go to:
http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/5078/index.htm
So what is your reaction to Azeri-launched massacres in Sumgait Ersoy? What about Baku in 1990? And Kirovabad in November 1988? What about the retaliatory Maraghar massacre by Azeris in April 1992? Any words of condemnation?
Khojaly, the civilians got in the way with the troops and were killed. Yes, some Armenians intentionally shot the civilians and its a damn shame they did because it stained the Armenian name. But the Azeris were always brutal as evidenced with their wanton slaughter and unapologetic reactions to the massacres, always conjuring up idiotic excuses for them (they claim Sumgait was initiated by the KGB and that whatever happened, happened; their not apologizing).
I pretend to work because the Soviet government pretends to pay me.
I condemn Azeri launched ones too...I know Azeri's and Anatolian Turks are not spotless. Just like in 1910's... Both sides were cruel...We are all bad. It is a defect in human nature. That's why we need more understanding and empathy instead of more hatred. Hate will bring more cruelty.
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Blah blah blah... They were creative enough to start their picnic fires in the open bellies of Turks after dissecting their abdomens:
//www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/index.html
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I just read ALL of the posts..... and if you too read them you will notice that those who think a Genocide occured point to the number of people that died ( like 70 % of the population) and those who say there was no genocide, try to justify it with various reasons: their were armenian uprisings, there was a war at the time, Turks died as well, Russia was going to take over turkey... Now I know these people are probably not historians or scholars, but the things they argue and how they present them are very similar to hearing a scholarly debate on the "Armenian" genocide.....VERY similar.
No one can deny that Over a Million Armenians died during this time....
The only thing you have to argue is this ---- does it meet the definition of "genocide" as coinded by Raphael Lemkin.
And from EYE WITNESS confessions, my opinion is that "yes, Turkey tried to systematically kill the majority of Armenians"
Back to the film....I think the film does somehow suggest that there is some room for interpurtation regarding the topic.....
I don't really care about getting land or money back from Turkey (I don't think it will ever happen) I am just soooooooo hurt by the things Turks did to the women and children, who had no idea they were sooooo hated. How could they have done the things they did??? I'm not talking about the millitary or the death walks, I'm talking ordianry people killing Armenians with like Utensils and tools and things......... It takes an extra amount of hate to kill someone with your bare hands.....and it seems that some of the Turks had that hate, unfortunatly so did the Turkish Politcians at that time, and that is why they were prosecuted in German courts.
"Yeah, I'd love to hear your side of the story, even though there's an overwhelming amount of evidence which contradicts it... face it,"
The argument between Turks and Armenians can be oversimplified like that, as you can see below Turkey does not tell "Nothing happened":
Armenians: You have killed my ancestors, almost 600 000 people.It was a genocide.
Turks: First of all it was not my country that time,it was a multinational empire.My country which is Turkish Republic, officially and legaly have been founded in 1923.It was Ottoman Empire, we, Turks too had to fight against Sultan's Armies during our war of independence.Anyway, your ancestors have killed mine too, why it was not a genocide and mine should be a genocide. It was a war, all nations have lost millions of people, our losses who have been killed by Armenians were around 550 000, I have the documents to prove it:
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/ana4.html
Of course in 1914-20 Ottomans were not writing in English, but the documents are real and they prove that both sides had many losses. Remember, events happened during one of the most bloody war of the history: WW1...
A: You are a liar!.You have killed my ancestors, almost 800000 people . It was a genocide. Show me any non-Turkish evidence to prove that my ancestors were not loyal to sultan.
T: During those years no ethnicity was loyal to sultan. Empire was disintegrating and practically ALL ethnic groups were fighting for their independence and their freedom. Including even Turks themselves! What was your ancestors ? Nuts?. Of course they were armed and were fighting for their independence. Here it is what they were fighting for:
http://www.hri.org/docs/sevres/map3.html
Read your national hero Andranik Pasha's life story, it also tells you everything in more details:
http://www.janfedayi.com/Andranik/
As you can cleary follow there, you've had commanders, brigades, armies of 150 000, bombs, guns etc. All bought by financial support from our enemies in WW1, all have been used against my ancestors. As you can read in your Andranik Pasha's life story your ancestors "freed" Turkish cities and as if it is not written there your ancestors have killed 10's of thousands of Turks in a single day, in many instances. Total to be 550 000. Their sons, daughters, grandsons and granddaughters are still living in Turkey and they are among us. Their story have never been published in "Herald Tribune". And never will be.But still we have some non-Turkish sources supporting Turkish view:
http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~dwilson/Armenia/mccarthy.html
And also the first prime minister of Armenia Hovhannes Katchaznouni admits that your ancestors were fighting against Turks:
http://www.armenianreality.com/An_Armenian_source_hovhannes_katchaznouni.html
Fortunately, your ancestors were not the best soldiers around and even in its weakest years, my side have been the winner...
You may not accept my side of the story, that's OK, I can understand that, lets than form an independent comittee of historians and let them to discuss the issue, review all the documents both sides do have, with all details and obey their decision:
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticleprint/2005/04/e962283f-6683-4529-940a-7c96683717af.html
It's hard to show any proof from western media b/o they were our official enemies during that bloody years of WW1. Instead it appears like this:
French newspaper Le Temps (Paris), August 13th, 1915 issue
"...Armenian volunteers fought on all fronts.” In the French Foreign Legion, “they fought in Syria and in Palestine...[and] constituted the largest element,...more than one-half of the entire French contingent.” They took “a leading part in the decisive victory of General Allenby...In the Caucasus, where in addition to over 150,000 Armenian men who served in the Russian army on all the fronts, an army of 50,000 men and thousands of volunteers fought throughout under the supreme command of General Nazarbekian.” After the Treaty of Brest Litovsk, “the Armenians...took over the defense of the Caucasus front and, for...seven months, delayed the advance of the Turks. They thus rendered important services to the British army in Mesopotamia...[B]y their resistance against the Turks until the conclusion of the armistice, they forced the Turks to send troops from Palestine to the Armenian front, and they contributed indirectly to the victory of the Allied Army in Syria. The Armenians have been actual belligerents in this war. Their losses...exceed 1,000,000."
“The Armenian Question Before the Peace Conference: A Memorandum Presented Officially by the Representatives of Armenia to the Peace Conference at Versailles on February 26, 1919,” The Armenian Review, Vol. XXVII, No. 3-107 (Autumn 1974), p. 231-232. The representatives were Avetis Aharonian, the President of the Delegation of the independent Republic of Armenia and Bogos Nubar Pasha, the President of the Armenian National Delegation.
As you can see above, their favourite Turks were a "dead Turks" and their favourite Turkey was a "non existing" one. Go and look their second favourite map of Turkey, as has been drown by Sevres treaty. In fact, Greeks have tried to draw their most favorite one (with non-existing Turkey) and invaded the inner Anatolia too:
http://www.hri.org/docs/sevres/map1.html
A: No. You are a liar. We are not looking for historical facts; we are looking for the political facts. We already have a lot of support, all over the world especially in countries with major populations of Armenian ethnicity. You have killed my ancestors, almost 1 500 000 innocent, unarmed and loyal Armenians to Ottoman Sultan. It was a genocide..You should apologize first, give us a significant amount of compensation and also give 1/3 of you country. Maybe we may discuss the issue later.
T: Sorry, I'm not a nut to accept that. Would you?. Your numbers are fake...Total Armenian population in Anatolia has never exceed 1.5 million, how come they can kill 1.5 millions. Many international sources and documents supports that*(see below). Today there are millions of Armenians who are descendents of Eastern Anatolian Armenians, relocated during WW1 and now living in Syria, Lebanon (all were Turkish territories that time), ROA, and US. Where did all those people come from? Mars or Jupiter?.In real genocides; genociders do not spare anybody, they kill everybody. Just like Nazi's did.Armenians have been transported to those places b/o their support to Russian armies which was unbearable. Many have been killed and massacred on the way. It was a very tragic event, anarchy was ruling over in that part of the world in those dark years. Anyway, we have some mass graves in Anatolia, we believe they are not only belong to Armenians. Maybe some.Let's get together and form independent teams to excavate them with, with international members, and look what will come up? Turkish bones or Armenian bones? Or both, which is very likely.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=66084
(That offer never takes place in Western media)!
A: Silence...
T: I repeat.Let's get together and form independent, international teams to excavate mass burial sites in Anatolia, see what will come up? Turkish bones or Armenian bones?
A:(Probably) No. You are a liar. You have killed my ancestors, almost 2000000 innoocent, unarmed and loyal Armenians to Ottoman Sultan. You should apologize first, than give us compensation, than give back our territories.You see we are too crowded for today's Armenia, even after invading 1/3 of Azerbaijan.
* Sources and their estimations about the Armenian population in 1910's:
1-Basmaciyan "History of Armenians" Paris, 1915 : Total:4.160.000
Turkey:2.380.000
Russia:1.500.000
USA: 100.000
Iran : 64.000
India: 20.000
Egypt: 40.000
Rumania: 2.000
others: 8.000
2- Kevork Aslan "Armenia and Armenians" Istanbul, 1914. p.119 :Total 1.800.000
Anatolia: 920.000
Cilicia: 130.000
other Ottoman lands: 700.000
3-Marcel Sert "La Question Armenienne a la Lumire des Documents" Paris 1913, p. 6o Total 1.18.000
Erzurum:215.000
Van: 185.000
Bitlis: 180.000
Elazig: 168.000
Diyarbakir:105.000
Sivas: 165.000
4- Census of ottoman Empire on 1914: Total in 6 East Vilayets: Armenians 646.308, Moslems:3.836.517
Erzurum:136.618
Bitlis: 119.132
Van: 67.792
Diyarbakir:83.226
Elazig: 87.864
Sivas: 151.676
From which 583.519 Gregorian Armenians, 28.914 Catholics, 23.975 Protestants
5- A French M. Vital Guinet "Turquie d'Asie" total: 660.336 14.2 percent of the population
Erzurum: 120 466
Bitlis:131.390
Van: 79.000
Diyarbakir: 79129
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"The above post is without a doubt the biggest waste of internet space of all time."
I totally agree with you! Trying to convince you people that the events in 1915-1920 was not a one sided act is simply a waste of time. Even if the Turks killed by Armenians would stand up in their coffins and tell their horrible stories; you will never believe in them! Because "You do not want to believe!" Even the pictures of Armenian Army with guns in their hands would not prove that Armenians (not all of them, many innocent people from both sides have lost their lives for sure) were not "Unarmed" and "Loyal to Ottoman Sultan".
Being so deprived of common sense makes you not even funny....
OK....
Did Armenians kill Turks? Ofcourse they did. Was it in the form of a genocide? I think not, it was more in the form of defense and at times gurilla tactics.
Did the Ottoman Government kill Armenians. ofcourse they did. WAS IT IN THE FORM OF A GENOCIDE? <---- This is the only thing you people should be arguing.
gen·o·cide - the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
By saying things like: Armenians killed Turks, Armenians were going to join the Russians, Armenians were terrorists....... all you are doing is justifying the systematic killings done by the Ottoman Government.
You are all being idiotic. If you want to argue for the Ottoman government....then please try to prove that what they did does not meet the definition above. (Try)
The dissusting and vile things that the Turks did, are told to us through eyewitnesses....and they really hurt me inside. But there is nothing to be done about the individual mallevolance and beastality of Turks 100 years ago.
Why would they first kill all the intellectuals of the Armenian Community?
Why would they soonafter kill all of the Armenians men who were soldiers?
Why would they send Women and Children into the Dessert?? Protection??? Hahaha.
When 75% of the population of one race dissapears into the dessert, does it seem like the people who were sending that race into the desert had a plan of some sort?
I'm not a historian, I am just thinking practically.
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If genocide is the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group, then armenians's attack on turks, be it defense be it not is genocide too, because it is a systematic killing too and also calling assaults, killings, massacres of thounds civilians "defense" is just a justifying of a genocide.
Love is a grave mental illness-Plato
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If it is systematic, the number of people killed doesn't matter. You can not justify attacks by saying "it is nothing compared to". What? Turks can be killed and it can be justified by calling it revenge and armenians can't? It is obviously a disaster in both sides. You can't value more only one end and expect that other end shoulder the responsibility.
Love is a grave mental illness-Plato
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Mak, you would have a better chance of getting through to the deaf, dumb, and blind. You have to accept the fact that some people will never "hear," "understand," or "see." That's our world.
Educate the educable. "Postmortem" is a waste of time. :)
Between 1914-1922 1.500.000 armenians and 1.000.000 greeks killed by the turks.in september of 1955 the turks destroyed all the greek shops and buildings,killed and d hundreds in Constantinoupolis.After that more than 200.000 greeks left their homes and came to Greece as refuges.Today only 2000 Greeks live in Constantinoupolis.In 1974 turkish troops invaded to Cyprus and killed hundreds of greek-cypriots.This is the history of Turkey,a history of genocides and s.Just a few days ago 3 persons have been slaughterd by turkish killers in a christian bookshop in Turkey.Thats why Turkey will never be a member in the European Community.
shareIt is not Constantinoupolis, it is Istanbul. And it has been so for over 400 years so it is not a matter of getting used to.
Love is a grave mental illness-Plato
Istanbul was Constantinopoli! (Great song.)
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"who do you think you are???"
Sounds to me like it's the voice of truth.
what does that mean?
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sorry about that. but your dreams will become nightmare. very very very sorry.
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The administrators delete all comments against Turkey and keep safe all comments against Armenia.
This a disgrace.
Shame on you.
Wo gao su nimen le. WO CAO NIMEN DE MA BI
if u ever read the deleted posts than u will agree that they are not "opinions". they are very provacative. some of them include insults. but if the deleted posts had opinions or critics about turkey and still be deleted than you would be right.
shareit's istanbul now but it has been constantinapolis since very early times of eastern roman empire. it has changed in 1930 with introduction of new turkish postal service law. fyi, istanbul is derived from a greek word meaning "to the city". but i agree with your correction, it's istanbul now. you dont go and call new york "new amsterdam" do you? :p
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Slaughter the Artmenians and take their land.
And then lie about it.
That's the ticket.