MovieChat Forums > Kill Bill: Vol. 1 (2003) Discussion > I have a difficult time buying the O-Ren...

I have a difficult time buying the O-Ren Ishii being part of Bill's gang

posted 8 years ago by McGannahanSkjellyfetti
38 replies | jump to latest

No matter how many times I've watched this silly movie, giving the back story of O-Ren Ishii, with her dealing with the horrible tragedies in her life of watching her parents getting brutally murdered by a gang and almost getting raped as a kid, I REALLY just can't buy the fact that she would be willing to join Bill's gang and take part of such a horrible act of killing those defenseless people at the wedding. I would of thought that she logically would want to have NO part of stooping to that level being a merciless cold blooded killer like the a$$ holes who killed her parents when she was a cartoon kid...

[–] !!!deleted!!! (64820750) 8 years ago

I think it's just because she turned into a cold blooded killer since her family got murdered. That can definitely mess with a child at a young age. She probably felt nothing but anger from then on and turned bad and let it took control over her.

[–] McGannahanSkjellyfetti 8 years ago

I don't know. That would be like Bruce Wayne joining the Joker's gang instead of becoming Batman...

[–] !!!deleted!!! (64820750) 8 years ago

Well think about Magneto. He grew up in concentration camps and watched his mother get murdered in front of him. He started out good but then he became bad wanting to murder people who didn't have mutant powers.

[–] taran-rod 8 years ago

You... actually... make a great point here! Never thought about it that way! Oo

[–] ThoseLittleRabbits 8 years ago

just like kids who grow up to become pedos after what they been through

i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

http://melanoidnation.org/white-man-warns-all-black

[–] McGannahanSkjellyfetti 8 years ago

I don't remember O-Ren Ishii becoming a pedifile, unless those scenes of her doing that were in the director's cut...

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

No, the other poster was making a point that sometimes kids who suffer certain tragedies, end up becoming perpetrators of those tragedies when they grow up.

Let's be bad guys.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (400) a year ago

"I don't remember O-Ren Ishii becoming a pedifile, unless those scenes of her doing that were in the director's cut..."

But wasn't she and Gogo Yubari supposed to be lovers!? Keep in mind that the former was just 17.

So does that count?

[–] Ace_Spade (9348) a year ago

There's nothing in the film that leads me to believe O-Ren and Gogo are lovers.

Technically, post-pubescent, but still teenage, attraction is referred to as "ephebophilia". Whether that's still gross or not is up to you. For legality, age of consent is 16, so there's nothing illegal. Japan's laws say "Go, go," for Yubari.

Personally? I'd say that anybody dating Yubari had a death wish. If they were cradle robbers or nonces, that just means that death wish is a positive for society.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (400) a year ago

Didn't Beatrix say to her during their fight scene something like "I know you and Oren are lovers. But please, don't throw your life away for her".

Something like that. And how would Beatrix know that anyway?

Had to look up what you meant by "nonce".

[–] Ace_Spade (9348) a year ago

Combing through this transcript - http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/k/kill-bill-script-transcript-uma.html - I couldn't find that line. I ran a search for terms like "Gogo," "O-Ren," and "lovers" but didn't come up with that. Closest I found, and the line you might be thinking of, is the Bride saying, "Gogo, I know you feel you must protect your mistress, but I beg you: walk away." (I used different punctuation than in the transcript, if you're looking for it).

Beatrix could find out something like that with a little spying or snooping around. As a world-class assassin, she's probably used to finding out info on people like O-Ren, and even if they are the head of the Yakuza, they'd still be susceptible to info leaks.

If anything, I'd suspect O-Ren of having an affair with Sophie Fatale, but even that would be nothing but embellishment and imagination. It wouldn't surprise me if O-Ren avoided sexual relations at all.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (400) a year ago

"Gogo, I know you feel you must protect your mistress, but I beg you: walk away."

Just rewatch that clip and that's exactly what she said. Doesn't that imply they were lovers? Unless the term "mistress" has a different meaning in Japan.

"It wouldn't surprise me if O-Ren avoided sexual relations at all".

Not surprising, considering everything she's been through. She saw her family killed in front of her as a kid and had to pose as a "child prostitute" to get the man responsible. She seemed asexual to me.

Why do you think she was having a thing with Sofie?

"As a world-class assassin, she's probably used to finding out info on people like O-Ren, and even if they are the head of the Yakuza, they'd still be susceptible to info leaks".

Well, she did say that
no subject would be considered taboo. As long as you didn't bring up her mixed race heritage. So she probably wouldn't have had a problem with people talking about her sexual orientation 😁

[–] Ace_Spade (9348) a year ago

Mistress is the female equivalent of master. It can have a sexual connotation, but it's usually referring to when a married person has a female lover on the side. Gogo wasn't involved with anybody (unless she counts that businessman she emasculated/disembowelled...) so I don't think it applies here.

If you want to read it that way, I suppose you could. O-Ren might be the only one who could "tame" Gogo into a resemblance of a relationship. It could have been a power thing for O-Ren. Still, I think the asexual reading might be the right one.

I don't really think she had anything going on with Sofie, but if one were inclined to read too far into things, I would point to the fact that Sofie was with the DVAS (she's there at the massacre, answering her cell phone like carnage and hellfire wasn't just unleashed all around her) and seems to have followed O-Ren. The Bride also maims Sofie as part of her opening salvo at the House of Blue Tea Leaves, which might be a deliberate way to really hurt O-Ren and goad her.

Of course, the case against is that we get no specific reaction from O-Ren that would indicate a special status for Sofie. There's no dialogue to suggest they're lovers, and there aren't any shots of them sharing a special "look" or anything.

Overall, I'd say O-Ren either is unattached, asexual, or keeps her work and love lives separate.

Just to be nitpicky, she doesn't even care if someone brings up her mixed heritage. It's only if it's brought up as a negative. So, if one of the bosses was like, "Hey, O-Ren, how do you see different cultures, given your mixed-race, multinational background?", O-Ren would probably just tell him. It was only that Boss Tanaka was being bigoted about O-Ren's heritage that precipitated his decapitation.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (400) 10 months ago

Shit! After what happened to Tanaka. I don't think anyone from her group would have the balls to bring it up. Even in the most polite and considerate way possible.

Would you? 😁

[–] Ace_Spade (9348) 10 months ago

Nope. I think I'd keep any questions like, "What was it like growing up on a military base?" or "Can you speak Mandarin because of your Chinese mother?" to myself.

She said it'd be fine, she probably meant it, but I think I'd play that extra cautious.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (400) 10 months ago

Good question! Is her Chinese heritage from mainland China or other parts like Hong Kong or Taiwan? 🤔

[–] Ace_Spade (9348) 10 months ago

And see, that's just the kind of question I wouldn't ask just to be on the safe side.

But for some reason, I'd guess Hong Kong.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (400) 10 months ago

Why would you think Hong Kong? The main language over there is Cantonese, not Mandarin.

[–] Ace_Spade (9348) 10 months ago

Nothing logical whatsoever. Maybe because they seem slightly removed from the Communist government? They're a little more "rebellious," a little more out of the way, and so maybe they're a little more likely to meet and fall in love with an American citizen who happens to be in the military. Maybe not.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (400) 10 months ago

And why does the space on this thing suddenly shrink, if you reply on it too much?

[–] Ace_Spade (9348) 10 months ago

I guess they wanted the threads to embed without constantly sneaking off to the right, which means they have less and less space.

[–] jpssteveshanahan (400) 10 months ago

Thanks for the clarification. They should be notified of this issue and corrected accordingly.

[–] R_Kane (15828) 5 months ago

She would speak Mandarin, the Chinese High Tongue.

[–] sunheadbowed 8 years ago

She got the taste for killing when she murdered the Yakuza boss and decided to become an assassin for hire. She was then hired by Bill.

[–] pennilayne 8 years ago

Psychologically when children have been through very traumatic things they either go 50/50.

They will either avoid what they saw and have nothing to do with any of it for the rest of their lives and sometimes become advocates for people to wake up to these things and try have a voice to stop it. Because it made them empathetic, vulnerable, understanding, human.

Or,

They go on into the exact same things and do the same things, sometimes worse. Because it made them angry, bitter, cruel and numb.

Just say a kid sees their parents being alcoholics from a child. They will either grow up hating the stuff and never touching it---or rarely touching it. Or they too will grow up to be alcoholics. Or if they see their dad beating up their mom, they will grow up to be pacifists and not want violence in their lives. Or they too will grow up to be violent. And so on. It's usually one extreme or the other. Being totally against it, or following in the footsteps of the trauma they say. Even if it's not genetic. Like witnessing murder, essp your parents. You grow up kind and compassionate, and are against violence. Or you become violent and even a killer yourself.

That's really what you found to be most unrealistic? To me it made perfect sense. For me the hardest thing to watch in the film is the fight scene between her and all the samurai killers. All the other fights are ridiculous and extreme but can suspend by belief for the sake of the film. The one on one, or one on two maybe. But one against 50 something? No effing way ever lol.

[–] McGannahanSkjellyfetti 7 years ago

Of course there were a lot more unrealistic moments, but I wanted to bring this up, because I'm sure the other things were mentioned on this board over and over again. I just wanted to go a fresh different route. Something that has either been never or rarely mentioned (if any?) on the
message board...

[–] StarSassy 8 years ago

I guess watching her parents die made her have a more hardened personality.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] reverbz 7 years ago

That's because she was in for a merciless cold blooded killer....

at the age of twenty, O-Ren had become one of the top female assassins in the world...

[–] deborah-mccloud65 7 years ago

Exactly so she had no problem joining up with Bill. Birds of a feather flock together. You lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.