I immediately connected to Holly and didn't quite much like Marina, but even so, do you think the film went out of it's way to antogonize Marina? I mean, I know she does all these horrible things, but still. At the end she looks completely burnt out and I know that makes sense because of what her life has become, but still. Doesn't she deserve any type of happiness?
shareWell, even the movie was supposed to show both the girls pretty evenly Holly came off as the more sympathetic character which really couldn't be helped. Marina was a very messed up character but the movie still did a good job of making us sympathize with her at points. I actually think the ending showed us a kind of light at the end of the tunnel for Marina's character. She seemed more stable and even though she seemed a bit snippish towards her kid, the ending seemed to imply that she was working through her problems and had reconciled with both Holly and her brother.
shareHmm.. I really like that point of view...I guess when the film ended I just immdiately got the feeling that they were trying to say "If you're bad like Marina, you'll be unhappy. If you're good like Holly, you'll be happy" but the more I think about it (and your response) it makes more sense... I don't know, Marina still seemed pretty unhappy and miserable by the end. I guess I just didn't see much to imply that 'light at the end of the tunnel'
I agee with that sentiment.
It does seem like Marina comes off as the "bad guy/girl" in the film. And I, too immediately identified with Holly. However, that said, I do know a lot of people like Marina, who are somewhat passive-aggressive and don't know what they want out of life and instead, are very insecure about themselves and somewhat jealous of their best friends.
Can you tell that I'm basing this on personal experience?
Anyway, but like Holly, I find that I, myself do tend to take the passive route, rather than the aggressive way, where I will confront the person who is making me feel bad. So I guess it's quite true to life.
But many of us don't have that final scene with our nearest and dearest. We just repress, repress, repress.
"I don't know about what happened. . . because once you start writing, it all becomes fiction."
Growing up, I had the same kind of toxic relationship with my best friend that Holly has with Marina. The film is told more from Holly's viewpoint, and it is about her growing up and finally being able to break the vicious cycle of toxic friendship. I eventually did the same, and managed to have a friendship afterwards, though we eventually fell out permanently. At the same time, though, the filmmakers want you to have some sort of sympathy for Marina and to understand why she is the way she is . . . and I think it works. Watching this film, I understood it so well - it was amazing to see this kind of thing validated on film.
shareI found myself identifying much more with Marina than with Holly. Not so much on the toxic friend bit (I didn't have a steady BFF type relationship as my best friends come and go and change) but I can be passive-aggressive and when confused or upset act out in hurtful ways because I just don't know what else to do. I found her to be a deeply sympathetic character for me, but I actually agreed with her downfall. She wasn't a bad girl that got what was coming to her, she was a confused girl that made her life a shambles. I just found it really hard to believe that Holly would actually tell her off and try to end the relationship. She just seemed far too mousy to ever do something so strong-willed.
shareYeah I felt so sorry for Marina its too easy to think oh she's this bitch and blah blah blah too simplistic. It is more the sense that she is deeply posessive through insecurity. She feels all the people she loves are leaving her all the time and she fights to keep them.
She is spiteful and impeding to Nat and Holly's relationship merely because she cannot bear the thought of loosing Holly. She feels guilty at hurting Holly but she can't help herself she is so hurt at the thought of living without Holly that it gives her no alternative.
The ending to me was not positive for Marina, she has turned into her mother but instead of constantly mourning her lover as her ma did she has never grown up to the point where she wants a man or a romantic partner she wants her friend she is mourning and annoyed at Holly at the end...
"And if all this seems to be eccentric
Be aware be sure I meant it"
I Johnny Marr
I don't think it's a case of not being able to bear the loss of Holly. I think it's more a case of fear about how she will fit into things if Holly and Nat do end up together. She is incredibly scared of it - the way she manipulates Holly when she's talking about her going to New York - she bullies her so much because that's the only way she knows how to get her own way. She is very consistant in her treatment of Holly, but Holly lets her do it (which she admits herself at the end). There is the element of the lost little girl about Marina. She has had very little stability, and Holly is the one constant she has had throughout her life. Her mother is messed up with valium, her father absent and Nat off in France, sporadically dropping in. If Holly goes too then Marina is left with nothing but herself, and the idea scares her. I think Marina could be quite nice if she went into therapy for a bit to conquer her demons! :)
I think the end is positive for Marina - she is herself at the end, the way she speaks to her kids is exactly the same way she used to speak to Holly, she just doesn't have the control over Holly she used to. The relationship is calmer, and Holly is the one in control, bringing her the tea, they're in Holly's house, it's her domain. Marina needs to control something, her kids are the obvious targets now!
I love this film, I could analyse it for hours! xx
[deleted]
I agree. I found Marina much more sympathetic.
shareI don't understand your complaint?
Are you saying you wanted a happy ending?
This is a film not real life, and also you don't always get what you deserve.
[deleted]
I knew Marina couldn't be happy unless she made the right choices. Most of the time, she didn't. It seems she may have become like her mother, but with one comment, we can't be sure.
shareMarina's situation may have been messed up, but I have been on the wrong end (a.k.a. Holly's) of the same kind of friendship/relationship, and I know how debilitating it can be to have a "friend" who sabotages every possibility of happiness.
There are lots of Marinas. Sometimes they're your best friend, sometimes your parent, or maybe a work relationship. It sucks. No matter why Marina was behaving that way, Holly took the only available course there was to take - cut Marina off completely until Holly could build her life to a point where she would have the control.