MovieChat Forums > The Forsyte Saga (2002) Discussion > 'No sympathy for Irene.'

'No sympathy for Irene.'

posted 18 years ago by wellesradio
98 replies | jump to latest

I notice a lot of you people claim to have "no symapthy" for Irene because she didn't marry Soames for love. Get real! Not many people did back then. God knows Annette didn't. Except Annette was willing to whore herself until she conceived and then flaunt her lover in a way that even Irene wouldn't have. So Irene stopped sleeping with him - so what? Things could've gone on fine from there. No one says a wife is OBLIGATED to sleep with her husband. But my DVD of the movie may have had a scene yours didn't - or maybe you skipped it -

namely the part where Soames BEATS and RAPES her.

Not many of you even bother to bring this up in your condemnation of Irene. I understand that you were all captivated by Damian Lewis' BRILLIANT performance (as I was) which actually lends some symapathy for Soames' case. There were many times I felt a small tear weling up at his predicament, but he crossed the line and even by the end of series two he has to admit it to himself. He could have really won me over if he hadn't crossed that line. But I suppose by whatever means necessary.

No, she didn't marry for love. He knew that. He thought he could win her. Buy her. And he promised that if "it" (meaning his attempts to conquer her) failed he would release her. All in all it seems he didn't marry for love either but for posession or even a challenge. The diffeence is that beore theytook those wedding vows he had already made another promise that he wasn't willing to keep. Soames goes on and on about the institute of marriage being a sacred vow as if he were a man of his word and Irene wasn't. Isn't the first promise more important than the second?

So go ahead. Keep feeling sympathetic for the creepy Grinch-looking stalker/rapist. Ironically, it seems the majority of you who feel "no symapthy" for Irene are women. Imagine if your husband/boyfriend came home drunk one night when you weren't "in the mood" and decided to take you by force anyway. I guarantee even if you did love him you'd be packing your bags that night. It's a bit disingenuous not to feel some sympathy for these two poor souls traped in a web of their own bad decisions.
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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] wellesradio 18 years ago

Oh, I agree that her actions are not by any means pure. But the punishment is much worse than the crime. You do feel for her having to be stuck with the beastly Soames for the rest of her life. He never did anything to even try to convince her that she was anthing more than a posession. And why would he want to stay in a marriage like that anyway? Marryng for money isn't as bad as it seems. Not according to the standards of the day. His second wife did it. I agree that she should have done her wifely duty, but since she didn't it was Soames who should have just been the "bigger man" so to speak and dump her on her ass. To answer your question: she would have been VERY happy to have the marriage anulled by the Church (except they'd alrady consumated so the Anglican Church would have nothing to say on the matter).

Divorce on grounds of infidelity - he had his chance to do that with Bosinney and move on to find a more suitable mate, but he was just sooo posessive. Do you really think he learned anything with his second wife. There are many times when I pity Soames more than I sympathize with him. BEST CHARACTER EVER.

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[–] Rainbow123 18 years ago

I feel a great deal for Irene. You have to understand the situation of women back then, particularly those not born into wealth. Soames acted nothing like a husband, other than when he engaged in the *ahem* activity of marriage.

Honestly, Soames CREEPS me out. His mouth is so pinched looking (whether that's the actor or the actor doing so for the character, I've no idea) and he has a very odd stare that just makes your blood run cold. A most unpleasant person. And yet he is pitiable, too.

[–] I_live_for_Supernatural 18 years ago

I for one have no sympathy for irene, but not for the reasons you mentionned. In the book she is an unbeleivable beauty. I think my lack of sympathy is mainly due to casting. Damian lewis is fantastic and i naturally had more sympathy for him because of it. irene is certainly good looking but i think the part would have been more suitable for a real knock-out like Catherine Zeta-Jones for example. (my opinion only, you can come up with your own knock-out if you wish) Also, Soames would have been better portrayed if he was not so handsome. That being said I still love this series, and love the actors, I guess it just goes to show that sometimes looks can be very important, especially in such a visual medium. When you are reading you can conjure up a nasty man and a great beauty, but when it's being done for you it can certainly alter your outlook. It's also unfortunate but a very real fact that actors who have acheived success and exposure carry forward ideas in what you've seen them inbefore, whether you loved them or hated them. If you've seen Band of Brothers, Damian Lewis is basically "the perfect man". I recently saw "An Unfinished Life" in which he played an abusive husband, but I still thought while his part was well acted I couldn't quite buy it, mainly because he was barely in the film and his character was not developed at all.

I hope you understand a bit better and don't think I condone violence or rape. If he ever does that to a woman in real life though, beleive me, I'll watch the series with different eyes.

Thanks for listening!!!

"Look, if you want unanimous consent, you'll have to get it from one of the other owners."

[–] wellesradio 18 years ago

Ironically, I may also be infuenced a bit by looks I'll admit. I found Gina McKee to be very beautiful in an odd way. When I first saw her I thought - "what an odd duckling!" but by the time Bossinney was into her I thought she was hot as hell. Soames, on the othe hand, I kept calling him "The Grinch" or "His Grinchiness" because - face it - he does look a bit like the Grinch as portrayed by Jim Carrey. No disresepct, of course. I was also constantly frustrated by Irene's coldness. Eventually, you ust have to admit it's a part of her portrayal of the character. Yeah, we're all influenced by looks. Still, rape=bad. Nothing excuses that in my book.
And Damian Lewis is a great actors. I haven't sen him in Band of Brothers, maybe he is handsome I don't know. (I don't think that red-headed, freckled men get the short end of the stick when it comes to looks - sorry)
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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] nubka 18 years ago

Exactly when does Somes "BEAT" Irene...??

[–] spiffyjellybean 18 years ago

I don't remember Soames beating Irene, though he sort of shoves her up against a wall. Don't know if that counts.

If the situation was the other way around, that is, if she fell in love with him but he didn't love her anymore and refused to have sex with her, is it right for her to be violent and force herself on him? Would you have sympathized with her if this was the case? A marriage doesn't entitle either party to sex. If that's what they want they can just hire a courtesan or a giggolo. BTW, Soames didn't win Irene over because he didn't earn her love. He couldn't earn it because he didn't know how--he was too preoccupied with money and following his head over his heart to figure this out.

If the situation was the other way round, they would not have married.
I think I am right in saying that one of the marriage vows in Victorian times (which is when this miniseries is set) for a woman was 'to love and obey her husband' so marriage does indeed entitle both parties to sex because if the husband wanted it, that marriage vow seems to make it ok. That particular time, Soames went about it in an inappropriate way.
In an ideal situation, love shouldn't be earned, it should just be there - reciprocated. Soames followed his heart over his head, it was not the other way round. He was infatuated with Irene and did what he could to marry her. If he followed his head, he should have married someone who understood a wife's duties, someone practical like Annette (his second wife - even though she had a fling with Prosper Profond, she didn't leave Soames). Or someone with at least some money.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Virginiana 18 years ago

Legally, slamming Irene into the wall as he did qualifies as "battery". If he did it to someone on the street, he could certainly be charged with assault.

As for the rape -- well, we need to remember that this happened in the 1880s. I don't know exactly where British law stands on this point today, but THEN the law was clear: a wife was the sexual property of her husband. Legally it was impossible for a man to "rape" his wife because her consent was understood. She had consented to marry him, and that gave him the legal "conjugal" right to avail himself of her body whenever he chose.

Irene knows this, of course. She says as much to Julyan when she comes to Robin Hill during his exhibition to tell him she's going to hide in Paris:

"You cannot protect me. Soames is my husband. If he is truly desperate to have a son no one, not even the law, can prevent him from demanding his rights."

"He cannot force you," says Jolyan, who cannot conceive of such a thing.

"Force me is ... is exactly what he did the night before Phil died. It's what he'll do again."

So we must realize that Soames could have forced Irene sexually every night for the rest of their marriage and she couldn't have done a thing to prevent it. I suppose that technically he could be charged with assault or battery, but what police officer would have brought charges against a man, especially a gentleman, for a few bruises on his wife? She couldn't even prove that he was responsible for them, after all. And once they had faded her small proof would have been gone. And even if he chose to beat her senseless on a daily basis I doubt he would have been held legally responsible for hurting her unless he actually murdered her. That, too, would have been generally percieved as a husband's right.

So she was well and truly at his mercy. Certainly her conduct was open to question, especially regarding the affair with Boisinney, but remember that as a woman she was pretty powerless. She had no grounds to instigate a divorce under the laws at the time, so there was no escape for her except to run away. I do feel sympathy for her.

I also feel sympathy for Soames, who genuinely loved her and couldn't figure out how to make her love him back. Damian Lewis played him brilliantly.

[–] heather_m1986 11 years ago

Wife beating was something that was generally frowned on. It was up there with being a drunk and a gambler. It was something that would make people look down on you if they knew. It led to social censure, but not jail time as it does today. The elder Forsytes like James would say Soames raping his wife was a necessary evil to bring her back in line, but I don't think they'd advocate rape on a regular basis. Also, I think the rape is more savage in the film and TV adaptations than it was meant to be in the book. I don't think it would have convinced the audience if it hadn't. Rape scenes have o be gruesome to ake sure they aren't titilating. More forward thinking Forsytes like Old and Young Jolyon think it's appalling. Even Soames in the book has serious misgivings but tells himself that he was acting within his rights. He certainly knows later on that it's brought "Nemesis", the God of Retribution, upon him -- and Fleur.

[–] a_u_r_o_r_a 18 years ago

I also do noy sympathize with Irene... I just thought that she provoked many things, let's face it, it was cruel and unjust many of the situations back then, but supposing that Soames was really violent, after seeing Irene flirting with Phil in front of him, at parties, with Soames' parents, I guess any other man at that time would have grabbed her at that very instant and dragged her around... I really want to say that i an NOT defending Soames, but I think that Irene messed up A LOT. Also I don't think she was even nice to Soames, maybe she could try a bit, maybe he could turn out to be not that bad.
Also I hated so much Phil, he was so hipocrite, and I really didn't buy all that thing of him being in love with Irene.

...only do not leave me in this abyss, where I cannot find you!

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] lacrimosa_2016 18 years ago

Wait a second,i think we are getting a little confused between marriage and prostitution and mixing it in with religious beliefs?,most marriages of the past were for convieneince,does that mean that our great great granparents were all whores?,no,it was the way it was done in those days,even to this day there are still 'arranged' marriages,and not just in certian countries,they still happen in the u.s and oz too.I dont belive irene was whoring herself,she did after all have that choice of "work" to do if she chose NOT to marry soames,but she couldnt bare it,i would have done the same thing,its called survival,id rather put up with one unlikley character than be a 'legitimate' whore and put up with that constant lifestyle.Its like a stripper and a prostitute? getting very, very,, close but still not crossing that 'fine line,'For those days annette had the right opinion,that sometimes you have to marry for certian reasons and take a lover,if you read alot of historical books it was done all the time,of course we are 'lucky' these days ,,, we dont have to be thrown out on the streets,we can please and choose who we want to marry and sleep with,,,if anything i think it would be so sad and awful to have to marry just to survive,iam glad times have changed,just look at the royal families in history for instance and even to present day,alliances and so forth.Irene did tell somaes clear as crystal how she felt from the start and that to let her be free if she wanted to have an 'open marriage' of sorts or leave completely i guess.yes in a way it looks like 'prostitution' but doesnt everyday people do it in some form?,we all 'sell ourselves' whether it be in work or freindship,even if we love someone?do we not do this in order to get things back?do not young women and men do it to get something bought for them?maybe a new dress or jewellery?is that 'prostitution?.Unfortunately irnene and soames had an unrequieted love.I think gina's acting was very different,i liked it because it was so unusual,if only more people acted proper and composed these days,i think irene and phil made a great couple,and it was dissapointing it ended so quickly,i do feel for june more than somaes,because june was kept in the dark,soames new this could have happened to his marriage.Ive seen damian lewis in band of brothers,he's character is totally different,of course it would be?he's an actor!.just like ioan gruffudd in the fantastic four,he's totally different again.

[–] greenegg 18 years ago

If you have trouble empathizing with Irene, watch the original, much better BBC version, where you will get more of the flavor of the novels. This vapid new version cut out half the characters and squandered much of the story's drama by miscasting so many roles. While Gina McKee has an odd beauty and can do quite well in other parts, she was completely wrong for Irene, who should be fair and a tad icy, as was Nyree Dawn Porter in the original series. Irene needs the right man, a passionate, loving man who can match her own artistic sensibility. Soames was never that man. In the original, the producers play up the sexual danger Irene feels from her step-mother's suitor. That situation forces her to accept Soames, but with the proviso he must let her go if it doesn't work out. He is too selfish to do so. As his mother Emily says, Soames smothers animals and people with his suffocating, possessive form of love. Damian Lewis tries, but never quite brings the chilling cruelty and tortured nature of Soames to the surface the way Eric Porter did in the original. One of the few portrayals that improved in the new version is Ioan Gruffudd's Bosinney. He strikes the right balance of sexiness, guilt, fear and passion. I never could credit John Bennett as a sexy, captivating lover in the original. He was a homely man, who was more suited to character work, which he did marvelously.

Don't forget marriages were more complicated arrangements back in Victorian times. Irene herself admits later she was wrong to enter her marriage of convenience. I believe she took Soames at his word when he pledged to let her go. After all, she was quite young when she married, and a little naive. As you rightly point out, Soames and Irene have tragic flaws in their characters, and both suffer for it. How pathetic was it when Soames played with Irene's gown and jewels? As with all great literary characters, they are complex. Don't just watch both series: go read the books!

[–] dinky26 18 years ago

I can tell you exactly why so many women here have no sympathy for her. It's not because she didn't marry for love. It was Victorian times, that was common. It's not because she had an affair. Soames could test the patience of Mother Teresa and the girl needed a break. It wasn't because she was aloof. No, there is only one reason so many woman straight up can't stand Irene....
She had an affair with her best friend's man.
Worldwide there were eyes opening wide and deafening roar of
Oh no she DIDN'T!
Irene was a two-faced friend and I find it difficult to feel bad for her. Karma's a b---h. There is a point in the series when Soames says, "why does everyone always take her side?" and I yelled out "I don't know! Tell me when you find out!" Soames was smothering, possessive and had big time control issues, and I STILL liked him way more than irritating Irene. Honestly, I probably would have liked Irene LOADS more if one character had called her on her behavior instead of coddling her for it. If one person had said, "Look Irene, I know Soames can be really aggravating, but having an affair with June's fiancee was a really s--t thing to do. You were wrong," I would have been happy and willing to give her a chance. But no one ever says that, everyone pities her, treats her like a victim, and acts like everything is Soames fault and none of it hers. Please.

[–] moviegiraffe01 18 years ago

That's why I didn't like her. Everyone goes "Poor Irene". Poor Irene? Poor Soames! I'll readily admit he wasn't the perfect man but Irene treated him like sh!t from the get-go. She didn't even try at all. At all. Soames wasn't horrible, you just had to learn how to deal with him. If she had opened up more to Soames the outcome would've been different.

Then she had to go and mess around with June's fiance. But then again Bosinney was more than willing, he initiated it. He should've just broke it off with June (I don't remember if he did) instead of being a little punk and just not acknowledging her when she came around. Sheesh. That said his death was devastating and that's when I felt sympathy for Irene. Her door to her way out just closed. My heart just went out to her.

-What if I see him with another woman? What will I do?
-I own a gun . . .

[–] pinklima 18 years ago

i just wanted to say i also hated irene. and i always sort of rolled my eyes at great beauty. but then i thought they probably didnt have plastic surgery and they all were inbreeded mutts....so...

but i felt so bad for thinking SOAMES was terribly sexy even still! i'm glad others feel the same way. either he is the best actor ever, and is able to make the audience feel sympathetic for a rapist! or irene abused him more psycologically then physically.

in reality i think they both raped each other. but irene did it day after day, torturing soames in ever way possible, until he exploded, in the only way he felt as a man he could hurt her/control the situation.

I should eat more, or I will end up like Kate Bosworth. Anorexics Inflate!

[–] JenniferA585 18 years ago

I DO feel bad that she was raped and beaten but I think since Soames wasnt sure how to conduct himself or show emotion that you kinda gotta feel bad for the jerk. He was very cold and possessive but its not like he had a lot of affection in his life. She didn't even try. They were both very screwed over. And as for the great beauty thing, I, too, would like to disagree with that VERY much. Nah uh. Its really hard for me to look at her.

Nancy: "Chin up"
Miriam: "That's right. Both of them."

[–] jane_bront 9 years ago

by moviegiraffe01
» Wed Jun 21 2006 20:37:54:

That's why I didn't like her. Everyone goes "Poor Irene". Poor Irene? Poor Soames! I'll readily admit he wasn't the perfect man but Irene treated him like sh!t from the get-go. She didn't even try at all. At all. Soames wasn't horrible, you just had to learn how to deal with him. If she had opened up more to Soames the outcome would've been different.

Just recently watched this series for the first time! This comment from almost ten years ago sums up my feelings about the situation. If you marry for survival, then make the best of it. I don't know what he was like in temperament and appearance in the book but honestly, I don’t see what was so monstrous about the Damian Lewis version of Soames Forsyte before the marital rape that would have Irene looking and acting like she had to relive death by guillotine every day. I really wanted someone to tell her to get over herself.

So what he didn’t think of art or whatever the same way she did? She could find some female friends to talk to about things important to her. So what he was a snobby upper class guy who was into possessing things – even possessing her - and the business of money? How many men in his social class in those times weren’t like that? That’s the way it was. An advantage for Irene was that Soames was infatuated with and/or genuinely loved her. She could have tried to be friends with her husband and some affection would have developed between them from that and Soames would have been satisfied. After all, in the end a handshake was all it took to make amends after a lifetime of pain. Love’s not just an uncontrolled feeling. It’s also a choice and there are different kinds of love. Makes me wonder what kind of marriage they could have had, and what their lives could have been like as individuals all those years, if Irene didn’t play the victim just because she wasn’t “in love” and life wasn't fair - and just “got on with it.” She could have gotten Soames to do many things to please her and make her life comfortable and satisfying. She could have even gotten satisfaction from the “marriage bed.” If she was bold enough to carry on an affair with her friend’s fiancé then she could have summoned up the boldness instead to ask for what would please her in her husband’s bed. Who thinks Soames wouldn’t have indulged her?

Perhaps the screenwriters intended for me to feel more sympathy for Irene than Soames in general, both before and after the rape, but I didn’t. I did sympathize with Irene to an extent because of the difficulties for women of that time and culture, and rape is always wrong of course, but it was Soames passion and pain barely kept in check that I was invested in and that drove the story and made watching this series both fascinating and excruciating. There is no excuse for why Irene couldn’t recognize that refusing to have sex with a husband who was already passionately angry about it, rejecting him in every other way, and publicly flaunting her affair in his face wouldn’t set off a powder keg before she could run away with her paramour. Also, there was no excuse for her to forget to lock her bedroom door under these circumstances of her own creation. It makes the character seem stupid concerning a serious and volatile situation.

[–] furienna 9 years ago

Excuse me, but it sounds like you have no idea what it's like to be in an abusive marriage. Because yes, that is what Irene got with Soames. And if a man "has to" rape his wife, even back in the 1880s, something is not right. What you seem to miss is that Irene and Soames were two totally different kind of people. It went far beyond the little things like that they didn't have the same view on art, or that money was more important to him than to her. They were simply never a good match at all, no matter how much he loved her. Soames had been raised by his father to be a very conventional man, who wanted no changes at all in the society, and a very possessive man, who had to get what he wanted. Irene was on the other hand a more liberal-minded artistic person, who never could be what Soames wanted. He was better off with his second wife, Annette, who was more "practical" about what a marriage would be like in that social class in that time period, and Irene was better off with a more liberal-minded artistic man, like Bossiney or Jolyon.

Intelligence and purity.

[–] jane_bront 9 years ago

There was no indication that Soames would have been in any way abusive to Irene before she started refusing to ever have sex with him, her husband, and started a rather indiscreet affair with her friend's fiancé. The problematic difference between the two is that Soames was willing to act like a husband but Irene was not willing to act like a wife. For whatever reason she did choose to marry him and if that was what she decided to do, however reluctantly, she should have made the best of it. At least she didn't have to survive on the streets and live in poverty. Instead, she didn't even try to create a positive relationship with Soames - at all. Just because they were oh-so-very different didn't mean such a relationship was impossible. I think some posters are unable to be objective about Irene's behavior before Soames raped her because of the heinousness of that act. Soames is still responsible for his actions. That doesn't mean that Irene's faulty behavior didn't provoke him to act that way. It did. That act didn't happen in a vacuum. Soames didn't wake up that day thinking, 'if she doesn't give it up tonight, I'm going to rape her.' A long list of things occurred over months leading up to the events of that night. I'm thinking you will completely disagree and that's fine. But since you've already made a somewhat personal comment about me in the first line of your response to my post instead of sticking to the impersonal topic, I'm going to make this one my last, especially since I don't have anything else to add to the topic.

It was a good series and well-acted by all but if the screenwriters meant for Irene to be a mostly sympathetic heroine they failed with me at least. To me Soames Forsyte is the most sympathetic character of the piece, heroic or not - not the willful cheaters and homewreckers like Irene, Bossiney, Jolyon Jr. and the French governess.

Adieu.

[–] hilaryjrp 9 years ago

It was a good series and well-acted by all but if the screenwriters meant for Irene to be a mostly sympathetic heroine they failed with me at least. To me Soames Forsyte is the most sympathetic character of the piece, heroic or not - not the willful cheaters and homewreckers like Irene, Bossiney, Jolyon Jr. and the French governess.

I don't know if this will smooth things or not, but your second response (which you may never see) helped me indulge your point of view. "The Foryste Saga" is a tragedy because neither Soames nor Irene are mature enough when they marry to realize that Irene's "deal" about freedom is impossible. You simply can't marry when a qualification of one of the partners is that should he/she decide not to be "all-in"--that's it, game over. Imagine how female viewers would react if this qualification had been Soames! (One might say it was indeed Jolyon's.)

The brilliance of the way this version slowly and ever-so-carefully unfolded each character's essential immaturity is actually a flaw. At least it's a flaw for people (like me) who regard Soames as a predator. As I've said on other threads, no law of the universe says that Soames couldn't be both pathetic and evil at the same time. Evil people quite often are pathetic; that doesn't excuse or erase their evil. Soames also could be immature and a predator simultaneously. He might not have been aware his willingness to grant Irene's impossible request at the time of their engagement was a sign of immaturity (emphasis on "might not"). I'll go so far and say that, at that impulsive point, he *was* unaware of the request's impractical, impossible nature.

The decent thing to have done once he realized that he married a woman who despised him--not to mention the thing any man who respected himself would have done--would have been to divorce her and stop begging. Many viewers pity him because he's reduced to begging. These viewers seem to be those who have never been in a relationship where romantic and/or sexual begging hasn't taken place, and who are therefore aware that it's just the flip-side of sadism.

[–] whoanelly (1558) 4 years ago

Soames never considered divorcing Irene because she was his possession. Remember, that is who Soames is—a man of property. He doesn’t let go of his possessions.

[–] furienna 9 years ago

Wow. Yet again, I am just speechless about how much a person from the 21rst century can totaly miss the point! You actually mean that Irene had herself to blame for being raped, because she provoked Soames? Do you have any idea how messed up that is? And how do you know that she had never "tried"? We did get a two year gap, where she probably had done what she could to overcome her differences with Soames. But it never worked out that way, as they never were a good match from the beginning. And like so many Irene-bashers, you seem to totally gloss over Soames's possessive and sociopathic nature, which is what turned her off. He could never see her as the actual person that she was, but only as a part of his property. And he would rather rape and stalk his wife than let her get a divorce, like he actually had promised her that she would get. And does that really sound like a good husband to you?

And instead of calling people "home-wreckers", maybe you can try to see the situation from their perspective. Irene and Jolyon had both entered their first marriage for the wrong reason, so they could never be happy in the long run. Then they met another person (Bossiney and Helene respectively) and fell in love. Say what you want about such a situation, but if they had just stayed in their unhappy marriages and kept suffering, I don't feel that it would have been fair to Soames or Frances either. Some times, you just have to face that a divorce is the only solution to end a failed marriage. But alas, it seems like neither Soames nor Frances could ever understand that. And by the way, Helene was from Austria. So I don't get why people keep thinking that she was from France.

Intelligence and purity.

[–] Popcorngal (4321) 4 years ago

I saw this year's ago, I felt bad for Soames prior to him raping his wife. I think he should have gotten a few mistresses. He was justified. Irene was cheating on him.

[–] Furienna (3312) 4 years ago

Soames would have still expected some sex with his wife, because that is what most men did back then. Even if they had mistresses on the side.

Instead of giving her the whole blame, did you ever think about why Irene cheated on Soames?

[–] Lolyeah (44) 3 months ago

You're defending a rape? Wow.

[–] Lolyeah (44) 3 months ago

A rapist wasn't so horrible? Wow.

[–] greenegg 17 years ago

Interesting point, though this would be a matter between June and Irene. June vacilates between anger and forgiveness. Her own destestation of Soames renders June incapable of writing off Irene completely. Time often brings empathy. I find it hard to believe people can defend a rapist. I know the law said it wasn't rape, but let's be honest about it. Irene said, no, and Soames just ignored her. The only people who have any right to comment about this matter would be the people concerned in the affair: Bosinney dies; June forgives; Soames smolders. No one else has the right to interfere. Irene herself admits she was wrong to marry Soames. Isn't that enough?

[–] shoolaroon-9-43507 9 years ago

You are exactly right. Irene is a two faced bitch. I don't like her anyway, I think she treated Soames terribly, never tried to meet him even half way when he would do damn near anything for her, but stealing Bosinney from June is really unforgivable. I don't think even Galsworthy, a man, of course, understood that, but one woman would never forgive that of another - I certainly wouldn't have, and the term "home-wrecker", even though June and Phil weren't legally married yet, is one of the most powerful we have.

[–] Cali7 18 years ago

Honestly, how can anyone feel sympathetic toward Irene? She is a boring, almost lifeless character who cheats on her husband TWICE-- once with ANOTHER WOMAN'S FIANCEE, Phil Bossiney, and once with Jolyon Forsyte, who she sleeps with and whom she becomes pregnant by DURING HER MARRIAGE to Soames. True, Soames' acts toward his wife are irreparable and disgustful. At times he might have been possessed by the fact that he, a quasi "man of property," could never completely own her. But Soames undergoes a transformation, especially in the novels (which I highly recommend). He recognizes that he can never possess the "beauty and loving" of the world, which is particularly poignant and almost saddening. Towards the end of the novel "To Let," Soames asks for his wife's forgiveness and endeavors to shake her hand as a sign of their friendship. Irene, too proud to accept his offer, rejects the hand. I must say that, having read the novels myself, I find Irene the least likable of all the Forsyte characters.

[–] greenegg 17 years ago

Get your facts straight. Irene and Soames are in the midst of their divorce when Irene conceives Jon. Soames has already been chasing Annette. Soames drives Irene and Jolyon together when he insists she come back to him in the scene after they learn of Jolly's death. As to the handshake, I wouldn't have touched that prick Soames either. I have also read the novels, and I still don't like Soames. He's too possessive and obsessive.

[–] greenegg 17 years ago

Good points, dinky! Couldn't agree more!

[–] cluciano63 11 years ago

Speaking of Irini...if the camera really adds weight, my goodness, the actress is a rail. She has the tiniest waist I have ever seen in those dresses, corset or no corset.

[–] oakcourt 17 years ago

All comments noted, but Irene was a particularly single minded woman and certainly didn't do anything she didn't care to do, unusual for those times. I'm not a fan of Soames in the book either but as you say, an outstanding performance by Damien Lewis.

[–] nubka 17 years ago

I don't remember Soames ever beating Irene...