I saw the movie yetserday and I found it incredible good, but there is one fact I havn't understand.
During a conversation between Ash and his wife. She mentioned that there is no closeness and touching in their marriage at all, but the reason isn't told anywhere.
Can you imagine why Ash and his wife leading that strange kind of realationship?
In the book it states that she never felt comfortable with sexual realtions, she tries and freaks out and can't do it. It struck me that she was abused, although I think it was implied, it was never actually stated as such. But they never had a sexual relationship, although he did love her.
shareThanks.
I thougt something like that.
She must have made horrible experience.
Her husband is so dear and good-looking but nevertheless she isn't able to have a sexual relationship to him.
[deleted]
"He should have been true to her"?!?!?!?!?!? Why did he not just divorce her and care for her as a sister?? Why didn't the lovers leave their significant others and go ahead and get married and have more children?.?.? I haven't read the book, maybe it explains this better. But people DID actually divorce, even during the Victorian period. I do not understand why a man of passion would stay with a woman who would never sleep with him, when he obviously could have found other women who would have. I don't care if Ellen was "sweet", AND a "poor woman". You know that prostitution really boomed, especially in Great Britain, during the Victorian age. The Victorian mores were profoundly debilitating to healthy marriages. Yet, Queen Victoria herself, had nine children with Albert. I'd say THEY were having sex. But then, isn't that what the book is REALLY about??? Passion, possesion, fear of "burning up" from it all? It is not really about someone just being kind and understanding to a "poor woman" who couldn't or wouldn't have sex. And Christabel leaves a happy, day to day normal kind of life, with Blanche for the "ruin" of that 4 weeks of passion. But neither of the lovers would go for the gold in making a life together. That is the tie between both the Victorian, and the modern people of the story (at least in the movie). Fear of the passion of love. In the movie, the "modern story" lovers decide to chance it.
shareYou made good points there kathy5353853, but it was the Victorian era, and it is characterized by countless novels and films as the era of great achievement and refinement, but also is an era of great hypocrisy and obseesion to maintain the status quo.
Yes, divorce was available, but I read somewhere that during that era, you needed the consent of Parliament to even start divorce proceedings. During that time, divorce was the ultimate social disgrace, for both spouses. And remember, Ash was a Poet Laureate under the auspices of Queen Victoria, who would have dropped him like a hot potato upon the mearest hint of scandal in his name.
In my humble opinion, the Victorian couple experienced the fire of love, hot and instantaneous, but destructive....Roland and Maude also experienced the fire, but it was slow-burning and constant, and flamed their need for one another at the end.
An Act of Parliament was indeed required for a couple to start divorce proceedings, plus they had to have a reason other than they no longer loved each other. For a man this meant proving his wife had committed adultery, whilst women had to prove adultery plus either mental/physical cruelty or desertion. As Ash`s wife was unlikely to commit adultery or accuse her husband of mental or physical cruelty divorce was not on the agenda
In addition the wife would lose everything, including any children, and she had no legal claims on her husband`s property or income. The wife would also suffer the most socially as it was possible for a man to partially recover his social standing.
For these reasons divorve was extremely rare in Victorian times, and if it did happen it was usually the husband who started proceedings, not only because it was easier for him to get a divorce but also because few women had the money needed to pay the very high legal costs.
Divorce in the UK remained extremely difficult until the 1960s, which is why a number of private detectives made a living from helping to `manufacture` the evidence needed to enable a couple to divorce. Usually the husband went to a seaside town such as Brighton with a woman provided by the detective agency, they would book into a hotel and create the illusion that they had slept together, therefore enabling hotel staff to testify that the husband had committed adultery. This would be supported by further evidence provided by a detective such as staged photos of the couple together.
OK, what about an annulment? Annulments have always been granted based upon non consummation of a marriage. And Ash would not have been a Poet Laureate until after he had written for a while, right? I haven't read the book. Was Ash already P.L. when he had his affair with Christabel? Or was it "pre-Christable? I really still think that he stayed in his passionless marriage as a mostly celebate man, as an example, and precisely FOR the purpose of the book's core theme. Because of the fear of the passion burning him up. Otherwise, he would have continued to have other lovers throughout his life. There are countless stories of real historical figures who lived apart from their spouses and had lovers, and all this throughout the long Victorian era. And yes, even famous people. Artistes, and politicians, and I'm sorry that I can't think of an example. But Henry James and Edith Wharton and others wrote their books about the steel trap of marriage in the Victorian age. They wrote about loveless marriages, arranged for various reasons - mostly financial. They wrote about those with lovers and those (mostly women) that could not or chose not to for whatever reasons.
shareRH Ash would not have left his wife -- even in an annulment -- simply because of what it would have done to Ellen. He really did love her and was comitted to her. I know, I know... "if he really loved her he wouldn't have had the relationship with Christabel." Yeah, Yeah, I get all that. But the fact remains that he loved both women.
I haven't read the book. Was Ash already P.L. when he had his affair with Christabel?Ash was never Poet Laureate in the book.
This is the plot from Evelyn Waugh's "Handfull of Dust". I didn't realize that he was merely reporting a common practice.
cambio
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Ash is not Poet Laureate in the book; this is only in the film.
shareEllen Ash did not have any sort of physical ailment which prevented her from engaging in a sexual relationship with her husband.
share[deleted]
No, sex isn't love, but when two people are married and love one another, sex is an expression of that love. It can also be a very healing thing. Also, if one or both partner’s falls out of love, making love becomes almost impossible; therefore having sex is kind of a reassurance that love still exists. In a committed relationship sex DOES MATTER; don't ever kid yourself that it doesn't. Note that I did not say that it is ALL that matters, but it is very important.
Humans are sexual beings, we desire to have sex. Many times it is done simply to feel good, but it is also done to express our love for one another. I don't know if anyone here has felt this, but there have been countless times that I wished my wife and I could occupy the same body, or more accurately that we could get so close to one another that we would actually meld our bodies together. When we make love, it is as close as we can get to each other and no matter what else is going on it allows us to express our deepest feelings for one another.
I believe that for many women, having sex with their husband is a very reassuring act, it communicates that their husband still finds them attractive, still desires them, and is still committed to them. I think for both partners it is very reassuring to know that they can fulfill each other's desires and passion.
Sex isn't everything in a relationship, but then neither is communicating, nor doing things for one another, nor spending time with each other, but all of those things are necessary to have a healthy and fulfilling marriage. Take away any important aspect of a relationship and it might still survive, but also, it might not. As I said, humans are sexual beings and not being able to have sex with your spouse (for whatever reason) would be a very, very difficult issue, and it is extremely unrealistic to say, "I see no reason to disbelieve that two people can love each other without sex". Is it *possible*? I suppose it could be possible, but if it weren't possible, that would be very understandable... very human.
"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus
Humans are sexual beings, we desire to have sex. Many times it is done simply to feel good, but it is also done to express our love for one another. I don't know if anyone here has felt this, but there have been countless times that I wished my wife and I could occupy the same body, or more accurately that we could get so close to one another that we would actually meld our bodies together. When we make love, it is as close as we can get to each other and no matter what else is going on it allows us to express our deepest feelings for one another.I know this is 9 years later, but Bladerunner, this is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard a man say about a woman. And yes, I have felt this, and you expressed it beautifully. Thank you!
There is nothing in the book that would suggest that Ellen Ash had been a victim of sexual or any other sort of abuse that would have made her psychologically unable to engage in a sexual relationship.
Her problem is really the result of Victoiran sensibilites and Victorian socialization/education of upper middle class and upper class females.
It is flat-out stated in Ellen Ash's mind, sorry can't find the exact quote, but it's something like "A fresh girl of 24 shouldn't be made to wait until she's a frozen woman of 36" or something like that. Ellen's parents objected to the marriage for TWELVE FRAKKING YEARS, during which time Ellen became so inured to abstinence, with the time for passion and physical contact killed in the bud and the idea of physical intimacy so increasingly foreign, that she just couldn't let herself go when she finally did marry.
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Please put some dashes above your sig line so I won't think it's part of your dumb post.
I think the reason Ash and his wife didn't have any sexual relations was on Mrs Ash part. She must have had several miscarriages and was told by the doctor that it wasn't safe for her to have children. So sex was not advised since there wasn't protection available back then.
shareYes divorce was available. But in addition to proving adultery, if the marriage wasn't commumated, they could also get divorced. If they had, Ellen would never be allowed sto remarry while her former husband was alive (unless she wanted a scandal). Annulment was only available to Catholics and some other religions. But again, you had to be frigid or impotent to be granted a divorce. That's why is some cases, including the upper classes, the spouse suddenly disappeared to another country. Separate, but not allowed to marry. This happened in the second season of Upstairs/Downstairs with Elizabeth Bellamy.
shareI thought the marriage remained unconsummated because she was phychologically averse to sexual intimacy. Possibly she was one of those Victorian women of the urban-based upper classes who had been told little or nothing of what to expect of marital relations, and so she developed a massive and lasting 'frigidity'. [I gather that rural people of any class had little opportunity to live in ignorance of how sex works :)] She nonetheless loved, admired, was proud of and respected her husband, just not 'in that way'. In the film, and from what I recall of the book, Ash really reciprocated these sentiments re his wife, and had too much regard for her sensibilities and her self-respect to 'make a nuisance of himself' towards her. However, there is no reason to suppose that Ash remained perforce celibate. As a man of passion and a notable public figure, he would have had access to certain expensive, genteel and very discreet establishments in London which catered for the upper class male's sexual urge. The women in such places were not cheap prostitutes, but often relatively well-born, ambitious and always highly skilled courtesans. As an earlier poster has said, the Victorian era has gained a [possibly undeserved imo] reputation for being a deal more hypocritical than other eras in history. Ellen Ash's remorse as I read it was more because her condition was the reason her brilliant husband has no offspring to carry on his illustrious name. As she did love him, she also felt remorseful that she could not bring herself to do what is expected of a wife, and she seemed to know what that may cost him. Though 'frigid' [never a good term], she was very possibly not naive enough to assume that he did not have occasional temporary female company. Female friends chatted about such things re 'other people'. It was rather that woman of her class did not acknowledge such liasons in connection with their own husbands.
As to divorce, I agree with the poster who said that the social and emotional costs of marriage breakdown for the woman were just too great. Also, to subject his wife to the shame of such a process would not fit with Ash's evident sense of honour nor with his regard for the kind of love and loyalty they did share. It was an enduring glowing ember that had been lovingly tended for years after all, in contrast to the fiece flame that consumed him and Cristabel so quickly. <>sigh<> Paltrow and Ekhart's characters should be so lucky, either way :)
However, there is no reason to suppose that Ash remained perforce celibate. As a man of passion and a notable public figure, he would have had access to certain expensive, genteel and very discreet establishments in London which catered for the upper class male's sexual urgeYet, neither is there is a reason to suppose that Ash ever visited any such extablishments, or even had other lovers aside from Christabel. There is nothing in the book that would hint to either of these circumstances in any way.
AnaR sort of made this point, but it deserves reiterating.
Sexless marriages in the Victorian period did occur, though they were extremely rare (one example of a sexless Victorian marriage is the union of John Ruskin and Effie Gray).
As AnaR said, some Victorian women (and men) were told nothing about sex, which put an incredible amount of pressure on newly married couples. So, on that first night, sometimes things didn't go quite as planned--and with such a horrible start to the couple's sex lives, some couples froze up and never tried again (i.e.--they refused to simply "lie back and think of England").
The situation in Possession is different, though—Ash expressed a very deep sort of love for his wife, even though that love was nonsexual. She most likely agreed that his courtship of the other woman was okay, probably because she felt guilty over her sexual fears.
Ellen Ash had no miscarriages because she was never pregnant. She and Ash NEVER had sexual relations; she went to her grave a virgin.
shareNo, it's stated outright in the book that the marriage was never consummated. From the (oblique) descriptions, put from the point of view of Ellen, she suffered from vaginismus, a psychological condition which prevents penetration, and of course a well-brought up lady in those days would not have known other ways to satsify her husband, nor would he have expected them of her...
shareI think one of the best parts of Possession is how it looks at love of different varieties -- including the nonsexual variety.
Simply put, Ash loved his wife. It wasn't the all-consuming passion, soulmate love, the "fire," that he shared with his lover. But he did love her in a more tame, less passionate way, and he didn't want to leave her because of that.
Regarding divorce, I'm reminded of a line from Age of Innocence: "Our legislation favours divorce--our social customs don't." Divorce was a much bigger thing then, and if nothing else, I'm sure Ash wouldn't have wanted her to be subjected to the notoriety and speculation.
I agree he loved her even though she had a fear of intimacy. I loved this book and I felt that Jeremy did an amazing job of portaying Ash.
share[deleted]
It's funny cos the passage where it becomes clear about the nature of the Ash marriage comes relatively near the end of the book and is really powerful.
Ellen Ash had been prevented from marrying Randolph Henry Ash until she was thirty-four and as she put it it 'her flowering was long over', the way that she spoke about it, it didn't sound as if she had been abused as much as the time when she was ready to have sex had passed for her and she was too inhibited. When she and her husband went on their honeymoon, she literally freaked out and ran away from him. They worked to try and fix the problem but without any luck and Randolph being a good man and not wanting to disgrace her never reproached her for it and in the book they never spoke of it again. They passed forty years of marriage without a cross word between them and even when she discovered his adultery she never really approached him because she was quite pathetically grateful for his understanding.
Ellen Ash kept extensive journals which her biographer eventually came to the conclusion was to hide something; eg. the true nature of her marriage. Ellen as a character was very aware of her husband's fame and the fact that people would study him after they were both dead and basically wanted to cover her tracks. She came across in the book as quite manipulative to try and keep up her appearance as the perfect wife in the eyes of the world but you had to feel sympathy for her in the end.
Small correction: she was 36 when they married, not 34. Everything else you point out is correct. There was a time in her life where she felt desire and some thrill at her own beauty, but years of abstinence forced on her by her parents gave her a terror of physical intimacy.
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Please put some dashes above your sig line so I won't think it's part of your dumb post.