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Historically Accurate?: Men + Women in changing room scene?

posted 14 years ago by Traci_Lorenz
15 replies | jump to latest

From other Holocaust films and books that I have seen and read men and women were always separate. From the time they came off the trains to the time of the gassings they were always segregated.

I found it strange that men and women were together in the scenes where they were entering the building going down the steps, the scene where they were getting undressed, and even the gas chamber when the young girl is found alive.

Is this a major historical mistake in the movie or are the other sources incorrect?

[–] mycroftson 14 years ago

of course it was never as simple as always being one way or another.

if your sources say that they were always seperated, then your sources are wrong. But they will probably not say 'always'.

the way in which they treated the victims changed over time. They did not get it 'right' from the start.
for example for the first gassings not only were people not seperated, but they also had thier clothes on.

policy became; women and children first, when they were in the gas chamber, then the men would undress and join them. the only instance offhand that i can remember where both sexes would undress together was when the 'family camp' was liquidated.

given this, there were always exceptions. for example if a smaller transport came in late at night (ie so that they could all fit in the changing room at one time), then they might process them all at once.

[–] DocAimster 14 years ago

There was no set method in which the Nazi's committed their heinous acts and atrocities. Towards the end of the war, especially when the Allied forces were advancing closer to the camps, they began to exterminate their prisoners with increasing ie, they stopped the selection processes and gassed everyone upon arrival.

[–] lacedemonians 14 years ago

And those 6 million Jews would have largely survived if they had two things - firearms and skepticism for what the authorities told them. It simply would have been too expensive and problematic for the Nazi police forces to fight large numbers of armed and dispersed resisting people. Hence, the Nazi authorities lied to the Jews every step of the way to keep them compliant until they found themselves in the gas chamber.

"The right to buy weapons is the right to be free." - A.E. Van Vogt

[–] gillianmadeira 12 years ago

Given how outnumbered the Jews were through most of the Reich, no. It takes more than guns; it takes numbers. Remember that the Nazis were led by a madman, and as it was, he put resources into exterminating Jews instead of successfully fighting a war. He went to war against the Soviet Union when it was contrary to his best interests. You could have armed every man, woman, and child in the Warsaw ghetto and the Nazis still would have destroyed it. It would have been more expensive to them on every level, but remember that you were dealing with fanaticism, in the leadership if not in the ranks.

[–] lacedemonians 12 years ago

Given how outnumbered the Jews were through most of the Reich, no. It takes more than guns; it takes numbers. Remember that the Nazis were led by a madman, and as it was, he put resources into exterminating Jews instead of successfully fighting a war. He went to war against the Soviet Union when it was contrary to his best interests. You could have armed every man, woman, and child in the Warsaw ghetto and the Nazis still would have destroyed it. It would have been more expensive to them on every level, but remember that you were dealing with fanaticism, in the leadership if not in the ranks.

Everything you say is true, but if 6 million Jews had resisted every step of the way, both with arms and with skepticism, instead of allowing themselves to be herded like docile animals onto the trains, then most would have survived. It's important to resist (or at least run away) BEFORE you find yourself in a Warsaw ghetto.

“There is NO such thing as a free lunch.” - Milton Friedman

[–] mycroftson 12 years ago

it is only natural for you to think that way, but the possibility did not exist.

the process took many years, from taking away their rights to segregating them, to then the final deportations.

the deportations from the ghettos were arranged by the Jews themselves. There was a Jewish police force run by a Jewish government, that of course obeyed German dictates, but the people being shipped out could only rise up against their own people and causing too much trouble would just have meant that more people, or other people were deported.

As the 'actions' took place over many places and many years, the Nazis were constantly learning how to make the victims complicit and how to avoid the possibility and desire for any kind of resistance.

There are too many aspects to explain here, but by the time that the Jews knew that they were going to die it was too late do affect their fate.

[–] lacedemonians 12 years ago

It is admittedly very difficult to resist armed aggressive hostile authorities. It is only natural to not cause trouble for fear of retaliation. Also, unfortunately for the Jews, few countries would admit Jewish refugees.

However, it IS possible to resist. During WWII, partisans operating in European countries were often highly effective against the Nazis.

Genocide certainly evolves over time. It starts with ambitious demagogues fomenting blame, anger, and hatred against a targeted class of people. The authorities disarm, register, and enact oppressive laws to deprive people of their rights in order to loot and control them. Such laws are justified with very reasonable sounding official explanations. Eventually, targeted people are subjected to officially sanctioned confiscations, terror, rape, murder, roundups, forced labor, etc. They lose all status as human beings.

It is important to resist every step of the way.

“There is NO such thing as a free lunch.” - Milton Friedman

[–] NoRevisionism 12 years ago

lacedemonians-
Now that we have the historical perspective of organized state sponsored genocide like the Nazi's its easier to have this skepticism.

That wasnt the case in the 1930's & 40's when the Nazi's moved against the Jews.

People and Europeans specifically had much more adherence to authority in those times and it obviously didnt serve them well.

Earlier Jewish resistance the the Nazi's remains a "what if" scenario.

With these points said I otherwise agree wholeheartedly with your posts here.

[–] at7000 10 years ago

It all has to do with mindset. Same thing with the 9-11 hijackers, the normal procedure, was to go along, cooperate, and you will not get hurt.

I believe the overwhelming majority of Jews believed something similar- At worst, they would be sent to a prison or labour camp, etc.

However, now with 20/20 hindsight, and "lessons learned" the Jews vow to never again go so passively, and not believe their tormentors lies and tricks. Hence the popular Jewish phrase- "Never Again."

Same thing with an airplane hijacker, they will never again be able to subdue an entire plane of passengers, with a small knife or box-cutter. The passengers now know "the to revolt would be in their best interest."

[–] movieman-232 9 years ago

"Hence the popular Jewish phrase- "Never Again."

"Never again is not the message we should get from the Holocaust. The
message we get is that the Holocaust will replicate itself; what was
acceptable once will be acceptable again!" Cynthia Ozick

[–] at7000 9 years ago

I hereby change it to "Never In The First Place!" ;-)

Kind of a dumb phrase when you think about it. I'm with Finkelstein in that I do not like the way the Holocaust is "marketed."

[–] Fisherman82 8 years ago

do you know how stupid you sound? Its not like all 6 million of them could gather around a fire and put a plan in motion and also had guns at their disposal, logistic and all. And despite the fact that many countries don't want to acknowledge, not many people were in hurry to help the jews. Many of them reported them to the nazi. But there was an uprasing from the jews in a Warsaw ghetto.
The bigger question is why did only 1 sunderkommando rebelled out of 13. I mean, the nazi sure convinced them that they would survive but how could they believed them?

Raylan Givens: I'm going to need an ambulance, and a coroner.

[–] Evcannon123 8 years ago

another moron heard from.

[–] wastecontainer 8 years ago

Yes, it's historically accurate. Several books from the Sonderkommando survivors state that in most cases it was done like this:

After a transport arrived there was usually a selection (in some cases the whole transport was killed right away). People who has been selected for work purposes (usually about 10-30%) were separated into men and woman and put into different sections of the Birkenau camp. The remaining people seen unfit to work were send together to one of the four "crematoria". Sometimes woman and children were send to the undressing room before the men, but sometimes they were send in together. It all depended on the mood of the SS officers. People had to move to the gas chamber right away after undressing. The undressing process took more than an hour.

[–] ObscureAuteur 8 years ago

Very good movie overall. Accuracy? Why does Mengele look like Colonel Klink. The actual Mengele had a full head of thick black hair (see a 1945 photo). Everybody loves the sterotype of the bald evil Nazi. This was an indulgence, or lazy use of an otherwise good casting choice.

CB

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