Does anyone know if the australian government formally apologised to the victims of their racism?
This sort of treatment of the child made me sick, as I watched this film, not being that familiar with the story to begin with...
Check out also 'The Magdalen Sisters' to see what my government and church done to kids here...
why aren't their prisons full of these abusers????
I've been studying Rabbit Proof fence and the Stolen Generation at school and for my own interests in the last few weeks. The Australian Government (John Howard and the Liberal Party) has not made a formal apology for what happened to the stolen generation, but they did make an apology a few years ago for crimes committed against Aboriginals. The crimes they speak of, though, don't cover the stolen generation.
The Australian Government have refused to apologise for a number of reasons. Firstly, they disputed the existence of the stolen generation (statement since retracted) and say that the amount of people taken (approximately 1 in 10 half-castes/aboriginals) are not enough to constitute a generation. They also say that as they were not directly responsible for the stolen generation; as it happened many years ago, they shouldn't have to apologise. They also claim that as the Child Removal Policy was the law at the time, that which occurred remains legal. They also think that if they make a formal apology they will be expected to pay compensation to those affected.
Some good news is that the Anglican and Catholic Churches, who ran the missions such as Moore River Native Settlement, have officially apologised for their role.
There is a petition in place at http://apology.west.net.au/ . Australians who haven't been affected by the stolen generation are signing it, stating that "We, the 24763 undersigned people of Australia, believe an apology is owed to those of our fellow citizens who were separated from their families as a direct result of government policy. We offer that apology." Although, I've tried to add my name and it hasn't worked. The site might not be maintained anymore.
Thank you so much for the detailed reply.
I can, to an extent, understand that the current leaders aren't directly responsible, but I think that it is a national shame, and recompense is due....
and some sort of acknowledgment of the wrongdoing would be a start.
It's sometimes easy to look at history abstractly, as numbers and figures, and you forget that every single one of them was a person and the emotional and psychological damage must have been immense, and then you look at the families and communities who suffered the loss.
I think in part, the underlying racism of that time still resonates, and until such time as that is properly addressed and erased it's unlikely that the apology will be forthcoming from people who still hold an element of prejudice.
Friends, resident in Australia, have witnesses first hand a basic level of disregard in relation to the aboriginal people to this day.
I know it's not rife, but as long as an element of it exists unchecked, it festers like a disease...
congratulations to you for caring.... it does make a difference
I also believe that an apology should and MUST come from the Australian government...However, this is very unlikely to happen any time soon. Just take a look at the policies of the US government towards Native Americans. There were a lot of horror stories which came out of the United States from the time of creation of the Union right up to the late 1950's and 60's. It is Horrific, but it is equally unlikely that the US government will ever apologise, and this is why I dont hold out much hope in the recent future for an apology from the Australian government. I personally think a lot of governments who exist in countries where a race was invaded and subjugated feel that what happened there was in the past and should be left there. This is evidenced by the English and their invasion of Wales. The Welsh language was almost lost and it was officially illegal until the 1940's for the language to be taught in schools.
This kind of horror occurs all over the world. Its occuring now in Africa as we speak, only its worse over there right now.
Until racism is whiped out, and until governments take responsibility for the actions of previous governments, and until we, as a united population of the world speak loud and clear that this kind of maltreatment of human beings as well as any form of racism is not going to be tolerated I seriously doubt we will see a change for the better.
hjl
Star Wars Episode IV.V: The Holiday Special.
I agree this sort of racism is horrible. But we musn't forget that our forefathers did something very similar to the Native Americans, forcing the children to leave home and attend schools where they had to cut their hair, take new Anglicized names, speak only English, etc. It seems just the same to me, so we Americans are not justified in pointing fingers!
shareI am the original poster, I'm Irish and Living in Ireland, so I can't be lumped in with those who treated native Americans so badly, for most of our history we were the opressed, so I empathise with victims of both Australian and American maltreatment, while realising that a proportion of those white settlers may have been Irish.....
WE also suffered the Anglicisation, the oppression of belief and of language, it still resonates with us, and I suppose thats why I feel how I do about the situation portrayed in this film.....
They just recently apologized.
Ya know, 70 years too late.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18937720
Yep they appologozed all right Kevin Rudd opened his big mouth and now there are law suit for compensation piled up so high that the courts have admited that there is now way they are going to keep up. Probably the single most worst thing he has done and will do in his polotical carrer.
The appology was not to late, it was unnecessary and as the Prime Minister of Australia has made the statement on behalf of all Australians.... well, except me of course because I done nothing wrong.
i've been studying this at school also and kevin rudd has apoligized and i think that os awesome and the aboriginals deserve all the compensation. some people dont even know there families because of all this
sharewhy are we even talking apology ?! those people need reparation and their land back. they say they cannot give the land back, but they let other countries buy it !! it is not theirs to give.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-12/indonesia-plans-to-buy-1m-hectares-of-grazing-land/4952578
"Yep they appologozed all right Kevin Rudd opened his big mouth and now there are law suit for compensation piled up so high that the courts have admited that there is now way they are going to keep up. Probably the single most worst thing he has done and will do in his polotical carrer. The appology was not to late, it was unnecessary and as the Prime Minister of Australia has made the statement on behalf of all Australians.... well, except me of course because I done nothing wrong".
Except to remain ignorant.
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And the same thing happened to the children of Greenland.
I call this problem
The invasion of the white man.
We never stopped to listen to what the indigenous people had to say.
The lyrics of Stephen Schwartz's song Colors of the Wind say it all:
You think I'm an ignorant savage
And you've been so many places
I guess it must be so
But still I cannot see
If the savage one is me
How can there be so much that you don't know?
You think you own whatever land you land on
The Earth is just a dead thing you can claim
But I know every rock and tree and creature
Has a life, has a spirit, has a name
You think the only people who are people
Are the people who look and think like you
But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger
You'll learn things you never knew you never knew
Have you ever heard the wolf cry to the blue corn moon
Or asked the grinning bobcat why he grinned?
Can you sing with all the voices of the mountains?
Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?
Come run the hidden pine trails of the forest
Come taste the sun-sweet berries of the Earth
Come roll in all the riches all around you
And for once, never wonder what they're worth
The rainstorm and the river are my brothers
The heron and the otter are my friends
And we are all connected to each other
In a circle, in a hoop that never ends
How high will the sycamore grow?
If you cut it down, then you'll never know
And you'll never hear the wolf cry to the blue corn moon
For whether we are white or copper skinned
We need to sing with all the voices of the mountains
We need to paint with all the colors of the wind
You can own the Earth and still
All you'll own is Earth until
You can paint with all the colors of the wind
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On that point, tripod you are spot-on. Racial oriented apologies are touchy-feel good liberalism. It doesn't mean *beep* to the 'victims'.
share[deleted]
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It was a war. What?? were they expecting milk and cookies?? There is a big damn difference between someone treating you inhuman during a war versus treating the "original" natives like a bunch of savages. So trying to make it look as if they rescued them [Aborigines]from a much more terrible fate is a pretty lame excuse for treating them like sh!t.
I can hardly call giving aboriginal children shelter, food, education, discipline, medical care, and a chance to succeed in life a form of treating them "inhumane". What would you rather? An apartheid system where the aborigines were left to third world conditions away from white settlement? Or would you prefer assimilation with all the benefits of western culture?
Geez, if you think that aboriginal children were taken away from their mothers just to spite them, you are surely mistaken.
Wow, it is totally not your place to deem what is 'savage' and what is 'civilized'.
So what if they were tribal entities? They were quite happily living on their land, with their people, before white man came and forcibly removed them simply because they had a different lifestyle.
I could imagine nothing more disgusting or abhorrent than you trying to back this up:
You know what that sounds like to me? A fcking SLAVE TRADE, or better put, human trafficking.
You sound like a slavery apologist saying how, "Oh, it wasn't so bad for those blackies in Virginia, seeing as how their white masters gave them food and shelter and everything."
Yeah right. Little boys and girls, being taken away from their parents and family, never to see them again. I am literally shaking with anger as I type this.
You think spending your childhood in a 'civilized' orphanage or institution is a great way to grow up, then by all means, FCKING SEND YOUR KIDS THERE.
There are better ways to build bridges between cultures than by burning them. 'Assimilation' is another term for 'rape'.
Your points on civilization and barbarity also extend to European culture, as well as the aboriginal. You can't demonize an entire culture based upon what *some* people have done to others. There is good and bad in every society. Pointing fingers at one and acting superior just because we're that much better at appearing sophisticated is no substitute.
You can't say think that mixed race children would be abused by their parents, that speaks nothing of foster homes, orphanages, and institutions and the sexual and physical abuse that occured there, probably on a much larger scale. Once again, you are generalizing an entire race of people based on a portion of their behaviour. Yes it's sad that some children were abandoned by their families, but that doesn't account for stealing hundreds of thousands of others just to make a point. Two wrongs don't make a right. Besides which, there is evidence that Aboriginal parents would neglect their children that were malnourished or starving because they weren't paid the full wages they were owed by the Australian government.
And let's be honest here, you're operating on the notion that the aboriginals are an 'inferior race' and agreeing with the sentiment that by mixing and assimilating the half castes with the whites, they will in effect become white and those bothersome savages will die out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truganini. They didn't do it out of any sympathy for them. It was grossly misguided case of the white man's burden. All ready your true colours are showing.
Did you completely neglect my mention of building bridges between cultures? Yes, it's great that people can benefit in developed countries from things like modern medicine, science, infrastructure, funding. But again, traumatizing an entire generation of people to spread your values or beliefs, forcibly, was not acceptable in this case. How could you be so blind as to not see that?
You picture me as a bleeding heart liberal, looking for the plight of someone else's problems to make myself feel better. All I have to say is, compassion for something that still hurts people, still lingers on in recent history, is not a weakness, and fck you for thinking that. How would you like it if I told you, "You were raped? So what, stop acting like such a p*ssy and get over it you dumb btch, it happened years ago." You are a fearful individual. I can deduce that much from your incredibly unsubstantial, banal, white-bread rhetoric.
I know that once you let emotion into a debate that you've all ready lost half the battle, and for that I am willing to concede. But whatever, because I can see that you are a biased, intolerant, single-minded individual with a penchant for distortion and mud slinging. I could argue with you till the ends of the earth and you would remain the same rotten apple at your core. Yeah, every country has skeletons in their closets. Many countries have abused large groups of people. Japanese internment camps in America, forced adoption in places like Germany, China, etc. I would be naive to think that stuff like this doesn't go on on a daily basis. But here's the thing, it's happening now, RIGHT THIS MINUTE, and it fcking kills me inside. When apologists like you come out of the woodwork to act like everything's all hunky dory, I'm sorry, but my patience just goes out the window for such blatant trivialization and bllshtting of human suffering.
By the way, I could care less about your 'mature' and bright eyed bushy tailed perfect family that are a shining product of Western society. And I could give less of a hoot about your traumatic, horrifying experience of trying to survive in America (oh, the hardship of adjusting to Hilton hotels or shopping in a 7/11!).
Totally inappropriately judging you from my perspective, I would suspect you are a white, female, Australian, middle to upper class conservative. You have no hardships. Other than your mention of being sexually abused, which I'm sure was an absolutely horrible experience if it's true and probably gives you at least some grounds for the concept of human suffering. You know of the abuse of power. Which is all the more puzzling as to why you find the idea behind the stolen generation acceptable, because you sound like such a btch.
Limit of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief: directly proportional to it's awesomeness.
That was just worthy of a response, Degree7. Normally, I would let such a naive person off the hook. But you had to throw your fat around with hypocrisy, lies, idiocy, and you have absolutely no concept of having a broad perspective to consider multiple possibilities.
I haven't actually demonized an entire culture at all, based on what some people have done. Can you find a book by a reputable author that has said that aboriginal Australians were noted for their civilised behaviour? I wouldn't think so. I have tried to find articles that are actually sympathetic to the culture of aboriginal Australians before European arrival. But seeing that aborigines only held records of their history in folk tales, then we can't get anywhere.
I can't accept your reasoning that because the Australian government didn't pay aborigines their full wages, they simply starved their children. No parent, no matter their circumstances, would allow their child to starve. I have heard from an elder/retired soldier in the army, who told of tales about not only receiving modest wages, but had to pay for their accommodations whilst in camp. The electricity, the board, the food, all had to be paid for out of a soldier's wages that he worked hard to get. But you are trying to justify child abuse by parents who probably had it easier than that soldier who had to work for his living. Especially when your cronies go on about aborigines surviving (quite happily) for 40,000 years on bugs, leaves, and the occasional kangaroo. Or are you conceding that aboriginal parents would starve their children before European arrival too?
You can't say think that mixed race children would be abused by their parents, that speaks nothing of foster homes, orphanages, and institutions and the sexual and physical abuse that occured there, probably on a much larger scale. Once again, you are generalizing an entire race of people based on a portion of their behaviour.
You can't demonize an entire culture based upon what *some* people have done to others. There is good and bad in every society.
And let's be honest here
you're operating on the notion that the aboriginals are an 'inferior race' and agreeing with the sentiment that by mixing and assimilating the half castes with the whites, they will in effect become white and those bothersome savages will die out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truganini. They didn't do it out of any sympathy for them. It was grossly misguided case of the white man's burden. All ready your true colours are showing.
Did you completely neglect my mention of building bridges between cultures? Yes, it's great that people can benefit in developed countries from things like modern medicine, science, infrastructure, funding.
But again, traumatizing an entire generation of people to spread your values or beliefs, forcibly, was not acceptable in this case. How could you be so blind as to not see that?
You picture me as a bleeding heart liberal, looking for the plight of someone else's problems to make myself feel better. All I have to say is, compassion for something that still hurts people, still lingers on in recent history, is not a weakness, and fck you for thinking that. How would you like it if I told you, "You were raped? So what, stop acting like such a p*ssy and get over it you dumb btch, it happened years ago." You are a fearful individual. I can deduce that much from your incredibly unsubstantial, banal, white-bread rhetoric.
I know that once you let emotion into a debate that you've all ready lost half the battle, and for that I am willing to concede.
But whatever, because I can see that you are a biased, intolerant, single-minded individual with a penchant for distortion and mud slinging.
I could argue with you till the ends of the earth and you would remain the same rotten apple at your core.
Yeah, every country has skeletons in their closets. Many countries have abused large groups of people. Japanese internment camps in America, forced adoption in places like Germany, China, etc. I would be naive to think that stuff like this doesn't go on on a daily basis.
But here's the thing, it's happening now, RIGHT THIS MINUTE, and it fcking kills me inside. When apologists like you come out of the woodwork to act like everything's all hunky dory, I'm sorry, but my patience just goes out the window for such blatant trivialization and bllshtting of human suffering.
By the way, I could care less about your 'mature' and bright eyed bushy tailed perfect family that are a shining product of Western society.
And I could give less of a hoot about your traumatic, horrifying experience of trying to survive in America (oh, the hardship of adjusting to Hilton hotels or shopping in a 7/11!).
Totally inappropriately judging you from my perspective, I would suspect you are a white, female, Australian, middle to upper class conservative. You have no hardships.
For your benefit, I'm a 34 year old male, who has seen more throughout my life than you possibly will with your sheltered personality.
Can you find a book by a reputable author that has said that aboriginal Australians were noted for their civilised behaviour? I wouldn't think so. I have tried to find articles that are actually sympathetic to the culture of aboriginal Australians before European arrival.
I can't accept your reasoning that because the Australian government didn't pay aborigines their full wages, they simply starved their children. No parent, no matter their circumstances, would allow their child to starve. I have heard from an elder/retired soldier in the army, who told of tales about not only receiving modest wages, but had to pay for their accommodations whilst in camp. The electricity, the board, the food, all had to be paid for out of a soldier's wages that he worked hard to get. But you are trying to justify child abuse by parents who probably had it easier than that soldier who had to work for his living. Especially when your cronies go on about aborigines surviving (quite happily) for 40,000 years on bugs, leaves, and the occasional kangaroo. Or are you conceding that aboriginal parents would starve their children before European arrival too?
I happen to have lived through more HELL in the last 26 of my years, than a whole tribe of aborigines can list as their communal dystopian moments. And *beep* you" if you think that I am joking.
I can't see anything in my posts that indicates that I'm a woman.
I think I might review your profile to see who else on imdb you have been giving the runaround.
Then cease trivialising my concerns and stop *beep* about human suffering. I suppose your patience goes out the window when that candy bar gets lodged on the spiral, and you can't get your sugar fix. I'm no apologist. I wouldn't apologise because I got on with my life, and specific others haven't.
Perhaps you don't know what it is like to be called something like a "white *beep* when you don't hand over a cigarette.
It's is obvious that you are such an idiot, that you are too much of an idiot to realise what an idiot you are, Degree7. Perhaps it is time that you do a little soul-searching and be a bit honest with where you are going with this post. You have already admitted to being young enough to justify myself claiming you to be "naive". Don't worry, you will hit adulthood in the near future. Then you will get a job somewhere (I don't care where). Finally, you will start getting those feelings of resentment against other people who unjustifiably get paid more for doing less. It won't just happen in your community. Eventually, you will start reading stories from places you haven't seen about how some people don't do much but get away with having a lot more than they deserve. I guess this is only going to happen when you see your first payslip, and that tax bracket stands out to you.
I highly doubt that you, at your age, have been on every continent on Earth, as I have. You probably live in a place like Sydney, and think that walking through your local Chinatown is akin to taking an overseas trip. I have met former residents of Sydney who actually say stuff like "if you go to certain suburbs, there are foreign faces there that look at you as if to say 'what the hell are you doing here white man?'". So, I would guess that the most you get out of being cultured is being in a different neighbourhood. Perhaps you also go to the museum a few times and think that staring at a sculpture or one of the paintings will allow for osmosis to take effect, and you will get cultured that way. Or maybe you think that hanging around some place where rich or educated people gather is a way of being seen and associated as such. Either way, you are still to finish high school, and have a lot to learn.
Whilst I can review the online sources you have provided, I am not going to bother with the books (any of them). I can't be bothered the expenditure of time and money to purchase and read about an issue that has no relevance to today's society. Especially considering that aborigines have had over 40 years to recover from any injustices they may have incurred.
I also find the allegations that the aborigines were in balance with the environment to be nothing more than false praise towards those that didn't have a choice in the matter. Aborigines weren't known for being able to plan for the future, and lived their lives in the moment. Contrasted to Europeans of the 18th century who had to store food, and plan ahead for any number of things that can go wrong.
You act like the aboriginals didn't work at all. They were practically enslaved by the Australian government and were a major factor in building the economy. The government issued contracts binded them to working under conditions that often left them starved, unpaid, not taken care of, and if they tried to leave they were hunted down and returned in chains. That's a fckin textbook definition of slavery you nincompoop. You act like all they did was sit on their butts and leach off of society. Hilarious.
Yeah, being taken from your parents and raised in a virtual prison to be trained as domesticated labourers for the rest of your life. Sounds like the ideal childhood to me. How civilized of the white man for teaching those barbaric savages the error of their ways.
On to your second point, you realize that the reason they couldn't just continue surviving off of kanagaroos and bugs and leaves was because their nomadic culture was systematically abolished and their way of life was decimated due to population decline from violent confrontation with colonist, as well as things like disease and land theft. As such, much of their unique culture was lost forever.
What's more, many of those who had their wages stolen were also stolen children. So they are being forced to adjust to settlement life, but are locked in a cycle of poverty and economic decline, and they can't even take care of themselves or their children.
Perhaps the fact that you are vindictive, and now threaten to dig up dirt on my profile just because I exposed your inherent b@tchiness for what it really is? It's really something that a self-content housewife with too much time on her hands would do. You can see where I draw the comparisons.
So you've been to Antartica too? Lol, you must be a real hit with the penguins.
The only continent I haven't been to is Oz, but I've had Aussie friends, and they all Harbour that distinct resentment towards bringing up aboriginal past, just like you. From experience, I tend to find your Kiwi neighbors more mild mannered and less abrasive. But that's my personal view.
I've done a lot more that stroll to the local foreign market. I've been extremely fortunate to have lived in the Middle East, Canada, the US, England, Austria, Colombia, and South East Asia, through the good nature of others. And I tell you, seeing and living with people in so many different environments, you realize that people are all the same. There is no inferior this, inferior that. It's all relative.
When you've been on a death bed for 5 months, you realize what a waste of energy it is to prattle on about what other people get and what you don't. So sorry, I don't think I could ever truly feel resentment towards other people when there are so many shades of grey. Grass is always greener, eh mate?
I guess the clincher of all this is, you haven't really offered one viable source except your own toothless opinion, whereas I have at least offered evidence to back up my claims (ATSIC sounds interesting though, I might check it out.) Sorry if I don't enjoy debating with people that play chess like a pigeon, sh€tting all over the board and strutting around like they won regardless.
Limit of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief: directly proportional to it's awesomeness.
Well, I suppose any place that I have been is not going to get proven to you over an imdb forum. So it would be pointless pointing out where I have been and what I have seen.
But since you have mentioned not being inside Australia's borders, I can therefore discredit your ability to understand an Australian's position on aboriginal issues. Being that I'm not an aboriginal myself, I can't really empathise with their position. Your Aussie friends, I can't really comment on, because there is a wide range of cultural diversity that these "Aussie friends" could have come from. However, can I assume that the reason that your Aussie friends are the way they are in regards to talking about aboriginal stolen generation topics is because you possibly labelled them with an accusatory genocide charge against them? That they reacted in such a way that they rolled their eyes at you at your ignorance about what they have gone through experiencing regarding aboriginal relations? I bet you took the position of some liberal bleeding heart, who gets off on shaming anyone in proximity of the societal issue at hand.
I still don't know whether you are male or female. But it seems from your writing style that you are male. The whole bravado and the like steaming from your pores. But if you were a woman, you would know that much of the Middle East would treat you like such a second class citizen, you would be second to your eldest son. Just recently, we heard about a woman who came back from Dubai, after spending a year locked in prison because she got raped. Dubai's strict alcohol laws forbid alcohol consumption. The fact the perpetrators knew about and took advantage of, when they rohypnoled her drink and took turns raping her back in her room. The judge decided that the victim should have to serve time in gaol for allowing herself to get raped, and for drinking alcohol. Oh, but, oh you think that we are all the same. That there is "no inferior this, or inferior that". I can tell you straight away, you won't claim equality amongst people once you have served some punishment for some unjust laws.
The clincher isn't about who can offer up the most sources. The idea of a debate is who can offer up the best argument. I could write a whole essay about aboriginal issues and the impact of European colonialism and later segregation has had on aboriginal society, using only one resource. But, you would probably do some "ho humming" and then run off to some other poster to see if you could outwit them instead. Just like shooting at a tank with a pistol, you aren't going to do any damage.
I presume that you didn't really read up the sources that you provided. I bet that you did a lazy amazon.com search on aboriginal Australians in their search engine, and tried to pass off those books as those you have already read. Plus that stolen generation website had a whole lot of stories about children that don't even mention the context of how or why the children were taken from their parents. Have you even read about the contrasting lives of aboriginal children who have grown up in white-majority society versus that lives of aboriginal children in traditional aboriginal society?
You may not like playing chess against pidgeons, but you sure act like one to adopt your own strawman arguments you throw against your opponents.
However, can I assume that the reason that your Aussie friends are the way they are in regards to talking about aboriginal stolen generation topics is because you possibly labelled them with an accusatory genocide charge against them? That they reacted in such a way that they rolled their eyes at you at your ignorance about what they have gone through experiencing regarding aboriginal relations?
Have you even read about the contrasting lives of aboriginal children who have grown up in white-majority society versus that lives of aboriginal children in traditional aboriginal society?
You talk about a song where part of the lyrics are about giving land back to the aborigines. The response you get is a *beep* you". Then you call it hostile? I'd like to echo their response to you, because obviously you don't understand. Unless you are a native of your own country (ie, a European in Europe), you are obviously living on land that belonged to another race of people that predated your ancestors. Are you saying that it is "cool" to give land freely to another race of people? Because if so, the aboriginals didn't think it too "cool" to lose the land in the first place. So, what exactly is so cool about the reverse happening with non-aboriginal people giving up large parts of the country back to aborigines who number about 500,000 (2.17%) of the 23 million inhabitants of Australia? The insecurity part isn't about racism or anything, but to do with having lose economic opportunities to a racial demographic that wants the best of both worlds. Obviously, you haven't thought through your high appraisal of a song that encourages people to have their cake and eating it.
Alicia Gali was the woman raped in the United Arab Emirates (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWwMSm8EfS8). But you find it difficult to believe this blatant human rights violation isn't an example of how people around the world are unequal. People are equal before the law in some countries, but that doesn't mean that they are equal in abilities. So, what credibility does your "We are all equal" allegations have in countries where woman are treated like property? I bet you would change your tune if you were or knew of a woman with blonde hair that spent a week in Dubai. Which part of Dubai are you talking about as safe? The hotels? Scratch that idea.
On the topic of the Stolen Generation sources, I don't really need them to prove my point. I am under the opinion that aborigines who underwent the transition to modern society were no worse off than in aboriginal society. Though I have argued that aborigines are better off in modern society, which may require me making the assertion to use sources. The fact that it is a self-evident matter, it should be enough for me to not need sources. Besides, you don't live in Australia to find out first hand what is the issue.
Yes, I have read about people of aboriginal ancestry who have succeeded in life. Though it is about 20 years since I read the article, therefore I can't recall the source.
So, what credibility does your "We are all equal" allegations have in countries where woman are treated like property?
I bet you would change your tune if you were or knew of a woman with blonde hair that spent a week in Dubai. Which part of Dubai are you talking about as safe? The hotels? Scratch that idea.
On the topic of the Stolen Generation sources, I don't really need them to prove my point. I am under the opinion that aborigines who underwent the transition to modern society were no worse off than in aboriginal society. Though I have argued that aborigines are better off in modern society, which may require me making the assertion to use sources. The fact that it is a self-evident matter, it should be enough for me to not need sources. Besides, you don't live in Australia to find out first hand what is the issue.
Hilarious how you go on about human rights violations and treating people like property. DING DONG, ring any fcking bells? You are shortsighted my friend.
WTF are you talking about mate, I lived in Dubai for three years. That city is nothing but hotel strips! It's one of the safest metropolitan cities on the face of the earth.
This roughly translates into = "Fck you, I'm right, and I don't have to prove it." I'm still eagerly awaiting your thesis paper.
20 years ago. Wow, what a damning piece of evidence you have against me. Their culture is 40,000 years old, which is pretty impressive. Hard to determine what is so 'inferior' about it.
Seriously man, think for one second with those two cogs you call a brain. Being taken away from your parents, your family, never to see them again because other people say it is right, to ascribe to a culture that you don't really need to adhere to, is beyond wrong. It is sick! I'm amazed you can spew your vile words with a straight face!
If, in your eyes, there was nothing done that was wrong and it was completely acceptable, then why did Kevin Rudd have to feel the need to apologize for it? Why do so many Australians think it was wrong and still feel guilty over what happened? Why is there so much literature condemning it, and none whatsoever praising the amazing benefits it had for everybody?
I'm tired of talking to you man, you just repeat the same banal points over and over and over again.
I guess the moral of the story is, treat your neighbors nicely, or else it may come back to haunt you (oh wait, it did).
...if you could find at least one website or document with credible sources as this to support your point, then maybe I would take your opinion seriously. But as it stands, I believe you can't, nor will you ever be able to, because you are incapable of thinking.
I fear you may actually be mentally deficient, and thus you will never come to the realization of how much of a childish, racist pr*ck you are. Grow up, WorldSacred.
First of all, WorldSacred, I just want to apologize for insulting and being so nasty to you countless times over the past couple of weeks. I think we should start over in a more civilized fashion and ignore the name calling that has gone on. New slate.
The question was "what credibility does your "We are all equal" allegations have in countries where woman are treated like property?"
You were probably confined to your hotel room so that you could avoid the unpleasantries that women from a western society go through, if they step outside Islam's code of ethics.
Look... make your choice right now. Would you rather have the conveniences of modern life? Or the stone aged culture of the aborigines, who couldn't guarantee themselves a meal for every day they lived?
However, in 600 years, the Europeans have gone from a semi-nomadic existence of hunter gatherers into a dynamic and technologically advanced society of bounty, creativity, and social equanimity. Yeah, I would say that European and their antipodean descendants are superior to aboriginal society.
WoldSacred YOU ARE A DERANGED HUMAN BEING!! It's unbelievable that that someone in these modern times could have such a narrow minded point of view, you require psychiatric evaluation and hospitalization.
I would love to see how you would react if your children were taken from you by a level of society that decreed itself better and more suitable than yours. You would change your views quickly.
IDIOT
Hello thepartydjz.
I don't know what kind of party you are into, but I doubt that it's anything other than drug or an ultra-liberal type. It would probably explain why you missed out on formulating a post that specifies what it is that I said that you find so objectionable. Twenty years ago, I too would have considered a reply like yours to be "hip" and "cool". But these days, I have no great deal of time for entertaining some spur-of-the-moment thought process of someone's emotionally driven surmise. Luckily, I'm free to respond now.
You started off by calling me a deranged human being. It's nice of you to call me a human being, since that is as exactly what I classify. But I'm under the impression that you got your secretary "Bubbles" to dictate what you wanted typed while you emptied a Barcadi Breezer down your gullet. Unfortunately, we are at odds as to what constitutes "narrow minded" on the point that it "requires psychiatric evaluation and hospitalization". Are you qualified to designate who is deemed in need for psychiatric evaluation? Because if you are, you wouldn't be so educationally misguided to the point of missing why there are "two sides to every story" on this particular issue.
You asked a hypothetical question about how I would react if my children were taken away from me by a "level of society" that decreed itself better and more suitable than mine. For one thing, buddy, if I had let my circumstances to get to the point that my children were starving; living in shoddy accommodation; got beaten up regularly; had third world living standards, etc., the opportunity of my children getting a life away from the hellhole would not phase me one bit. Sure, I would miss them, but I know that they would be better off.
Believe me, I doubt that you are really genuine in this topic. Though I haven't done textbook after textbook, pdf after pdf readings on this subject, I have read enough about the context of what went on in the last 226 years to know that the aborigines had to adapt to the changing times, or face being wiped out. What would you have preferred? That the aborigines were continually neglected and segregated to the point where they would have just died out (or had very small pockets of tribes) by now? Or would you have liked to have seen them integrated/assimilated into western society -- with the added advantage of homes, education, medicine, clothing, security, food, and a chance at life? Because if you aren't arguing the latter, you are arguing the former.
At this point, you have either given up on reading this and have gone off smugly to find someone else to bother, or you are starting to realise that I have a reasoned point of argument that has a lot of merit.
Within 113 years, colonists from the UK had turned a large land mass in the southwest Pacific from a typical third world region, into a first world nation that attracted large numbers of people from Europe (even with the prospect of them sailing periodically for 6 months to get here). But you are trying to suggest that aborigines should have been left to their own vices. This just doesn't happen. I doubt there is any place left on this earth that hasn't had some form of modernity foisted upon them in their traditional societies. Why should aborigines be left behind to face extinction, thepartydjz?
You finished with a caps locked "IDIOT", which I am assuming is your other pseudonym, or maybe what you get called by the customers on the other side of the McDonalds counter. Either way, I'm not impressed by your standard of missive.
"Why should aborigines be left behind to face extinction, thepartydjz? "
That is what you don't understand, they managed as they had for centuries before, their lifestyle is different from the European lifestyle, they did just fine on their own and did not require or invite intervention.
Simply because their lifestyle doesn't agree with that of the white European lifestyle doesn't make it wrong, in fact it makes it better. They did not pollute the atmosphere or destroy nature, they existed with it.
"Why should aborigines be left behind to face extinction, thepartydjz? "
That is what you don't understand, they managed as they had for centuries before, their lifestyle is different from the European lifestyle, they did just fine on their own and did not require or invite intervention.
@WorldSacred
Over in Japan, they *had* (probably still have) bars and restaurants that are "Japanese Only". Some Japanese official once claimed that the Japanese had a better education system than America's because of all the Mexicans and Blacks attending Americans school. Africans have had belief systems that leave them thinking that raping people cures them of AIDS. Indians hate anyone who isn't just like them. Middle Easterners rape women, but then blame the victim for getting raped. They also constantly put restrictions on women and have such a long way to go regarding gender equality.
Excuse me? I'm a black American, and I can honestly say that the Japanese are racist as hell too, they aren't perfect either, and American,FYI, was built literally off of the backs of people who looked like me. You name all this horrible s*** other non-white cultures have done, while conveniently leaving out the fact that white people themselves have done some truly horrible s*** to non-white people (as well as to each other) here in America and practically every other country they invaded. A look at the history of America alone would tell you that. So don't pretend like white people are some squeaky-clean and superior to everybody, because everybody knows for a damn fact they're not.
But I agree with Degree7---you sound like a typical arrogant racist white dude who's never had to deal with racism or prejudice precisely BECAUSE you're a white dude, with all the privilege that automatically comes with being a white dude. So therefore,you claim it's not even important simply because it's never been an issue for YOU. Well, racism has ALWAYS made an issue for non-white people, because white people have ALWAYS made it a damn issue for them,and used it as an excuse to exploit,degrade and use them for any damn thing that would benefit white folks. And the only reason Europe became powerful was because it invaded other countries that had resources it needed (or didn't have) and stole those countries resources and enslaved their people as a cheap labor source (like what Europe did to Africa, when they bought slaves to America by kidnapping Africans right off the shore,or form other Africans who sold heir prisoners of war to them.) In other words, Europe would have never become the nation and power it became without slavery,cheap labor, and indentured labor---it sure as hell wasn't because white people were so much better and smarter then everyone else. They were just more willing to go and invade a lot more places to get what they wanted. Your arrogance and racism is high-and-mighty, it's fcking hideous.
Practically EVERY race of people on earth were undeveloped and "savage" at one point in time and history or another,and so were white people (who were once cave-dwellers themselves.) The BS you're spouting about "white superiority" is the same self-centered racist bull**** white people were spouting over 400 years ago to justify their pillaging,stealing and raping of the lands of non-white people. It's easy to claim that your race is "superior" when you're the majority and you're pretty much wiped out the minority,taken their land, stripped them of their culture and basically told them they were less than human because they weren't white.
I saw an Australian film years ago,called, I think,GROUND ZERO, in which at the end, there was a disclaimer saying that aboriginal people, as recently as the 1950s, were classified with livestock and animals---in other words, they weren't even considered human, which is why is was so easy to take their kids from them and cut them off completely from their culture. If you don't believe me, watch the film yourself: It's listed here:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093120/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_59
I also saw a genuinely creepy Australian drama called THE SNOWTOWN MURDERS, in which a white dude slowly turned the family he stayed with into a bunch of psycho killers. So this nonsense you spout about white folks being so damn perfect and more superior than everybody else on earth is just some bull**** that white people have always told themselves that to justify the horrible s*** they're done in the past (and present) to everyone else that isn't white. You're the type who'll say that the Charleston shooter just went randomly into a church that happened to have mostly black people and shot them, and that race had nothing to do with it (when all the evidence points to the fact that it did.) Keep waddling around in your perfect little white supremacist world, then.
Yes, of course you would hold that kind of hypocritical point of view. As a black American, it seems stereotypical for you to continue portraying that inferiority complex that pervades African Americans, these days. Taking credit for what other people have done seem to be the way of a certain demographic in the United States that love to rest on other people's laurels. As a matter of fact, what part of the United States have you built for other people's benefit, activista? I would doubt that you have done anything more in your life other than for the betterment of yourself and your family, and perhaps a few friends. So, to allude that you have inherited a moral high ground bragging rights, due to the 'fact' that your distant ancestors were slaves, you are not going to get very far in the argument.
Since you brought it up, I have to challenge you on the claim you asserted saying that I conveniently leave out all the bad stuff the white people do. I have not made that claim. I have not said that white people have done no wrong in the past, as you have implied. Europeans have done whatever they had to do to survive. It has been part of human nature to explore and conquer, and then defend what they get. I know it. You know it. Everyone should know this basic survivalist instinct. But what you seem to miss is that European society is basically better organised, and displays a higher standard of living wherever this culture is propagated. European culture has been transplanted into America, parts of Africa, certain areas of south Asia, and throughout Australasia. If you could find a better culture somewhere in the world, please don't hesitate to let me know about it, because I'm willing to learn. Until then, I would be quite happy to continue believing that the Northern European culture is the prevailing most successful culture of the world.
As to the claims of yours that I'm "racist", I suppose there is truth to that accusation. "Arrogant"? I doubt that. Your complacent beliefs that you are owed a living tone of missive, leaves me feeling condescending in type of response options I have responding to you. "White dude". Assuming that you mean caucasian male, that's correct. I can overlook the frivolous attempt at belittling me. But you then said that I have never had to deal with racism or prejudice because I'm white. Do you not see the blatant hypocrisy in that statement? Dealing with racism and prejudice has been the motivating factor in inciting me to write about this topic. I can't really remember what it was that I wrote over the time. But I know what it was that I would have and not have said in my responses to other people.
It's the 21st century, and people are still talking about social issues that should have been silenced 3 decades ago. Would you like some examples of the discrimination that I have received in that time?
I can't get certain jobs because I'm caucasian, irrelevant of whether I'm qualified for the job. Aboriginal people are encouraged to apply for any position anywhere. They are also prioritised for jobs where numbers are low for aboriginal participants.
Aborigines are rarely punished for times when they get into fights, vandalism, and drunkeness, and other antisocial behaviour. The reprimand that they get is diversionary tactics from the judge to try allow them a second chance. Meanwhile, if I make a mistake on the road, I can be fined heavily. If I get in to fights, robberies, and vandalism, I will be convicted of an offence. Aborigines need to basically commit grievous bodily harm, steal valuables worth a high proportion of a victim's weekly wage, or rape someone before they are jailed.
Aborigines get home loans at a discounted interest rate. However, I have to apply for a home loan and agree to whatever the banks will offer.
Aborigines are not means tested to receive welfare. I, however, have to show that I deserve welfare by undergoing mutual obligation tasks, searching for work. I don't ever see aborigines in my job network placement. The indigenous don't have to look for work, and they don't need to show their need for welfare.
I'm also subjected to derogatory remarks, if I go near people of indigenous ancestry, no matter who they think I may be. I can't stop inside an aboriginal township to ask for directions. I can't even go to assist people who are aboriginal, unless I want to be accused of "spying on them". Someone non-aboriginal getting victimised by aboriginal people will be considered wasting court time trying to convict the assailant.
Therefore, I'm hardly a person privileged, simply because I have been born white. I think you should redirect your criticism towards aborigines who do get privileges for being born aboriginal. The way you talk about me and my ethnicity, you make it seem like white people are born with bar codes that we have scanned at the supermarkets when we get our groceries. We have not got a get-out-of-gaol (jail) free card that comes with our skin type. And we have to work hard each week to earn enough to pay our bills and keep fed, sheltered and clothed.
It's rubbish that you think that Europe got powerful by colonising other countries, and slaves were sent to the Americas to make them powerful. Slavery still exists in Africa, Asia, and parts of the Middle East. Why aren't those slavery continuing regions still not amongst the most powerful regions of the world? Because they have nothing going for them. Getting back to your point about how you think slaves made the United States great, you seem to forget that 150 years ago, slavery was ended. Why didn't the USA collapse into financial ruin? Especially considering that the country had just finished a civil war. It's because an economic system of renewed purpose was put into place to replace the system that slave economies had in process.
And whilst you are talking about slavery, here's something to ponder. My ancestors left Europe in the 1880s and 1890s, to make their home in Australia, as a result of better living conditions afforded in Australia. What forced them out of Europe? Industrialisation's societal slavery of the worker, before the labour laws came in to effect. African Americans are not the only people to have ancestors working for next to nothing. My ancestors dealt with that, too. My grandfathers on both sides of the family have worked at laying the track for the railway, and have even built the roads in some areas. And that's a life far better than what their grandparents had to endure in Europe.
You seemed to assume that slavery is purely all about you in terms of Africans being sold into slavery by other Africans. I believe it was Muhammad Ali that said he was "glad his ancestors got on the boat for America", because it was much easier being a slave in America, rather than a free person in Africa. Europe was long a powerful continent long before they had heard of sub-Sahara Africans. Only not as powerful as China, until about after the 1500s.
Aboriginal people were started to be considered citizens of Australia by 1967. That is 48 years ago. I happen to be 36 years old, and I know that I had to grow up faster than expected when I hit 18 years of age, so that I could learn to deal with the realities of life. You don't think 48 years is enough time for aborigines, even though they have had a 30 year head start compared to me. Heck, my country can deal with losing tens of thousands in casualties in WW1 and WW2, including being bombed by the Japanese. But aborigines getting a free ride can't get their societal bearing in 48 years?? Don't you think that aborigines should be assuming heavy responsibilities by now?
And I don't know what point you are making about Snowtown. We already know that there are white people who commit crimes. So, you can quit with the strawman argument that "white people see themselves as perfect", etc. It makes you look stupid, not me. However, there is plenty of evidence that black people commit more crimes of murder and violence than white people. We can use the United States for example. The murder rate there is about 10 people murdered per 100,000 residents. In Australia, the murder rate fluctuates between 1 and 2 per 100,000 residents. The United States has a particular bias in murder rates where urban areas (that have heavy firearm restrictions) show the highest rate of murder. Washington DC had a murder rate of 200 murders per 100,000 residents. Whilst places like Maine have murder rates around 2 per 100,000. What you will note is that whilst DC is concentrated with large numbers of African American people, Maine has about 90% of their residents who are caucasian. So, I doubt that high crime urban areas are the result of what happened prior to 150 years ago in the former slave areas. And I'm quite sure that Maine has adopted and continued a European styled culture, which encourages respect for law and order.
I don't really care about some Charleston shooter. He is just another "man bites dog" type mass shooter murderer that the media loves to show the world. Had it been a white congregation, and a black shooter, then the media would not make a racial issue out of it. Personally, I hope the guy hangs himself in prison, probably with the help of prison guards, and be rid of him once and for all.
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Thats right Tripod we did not do anything wrong and now I have to pay for it out of our own pockets.
Thats Kevin you can retire now buddy.
here is the answer - or part of it ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,,2141425,00.html
Aborigine wins payout for stolen childhood
Man awarded £220,000 after removal from family led to lifelong depression
----------
Prime minister John Howard's government has refused to apologise for the Stolen Generation and resisted calls to set up a compensation fund.
The truth is 'white people' will never apologize for their mistreatment of 'black people' throughout the world. They will never take full responsibility for the abuse/genocide or do much to make amends. They may make movies, express outrage at the idea, express their sympathies, and make speeches asking that we all move on to a better place without racism or prejudice - But THEY WILL NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY
It's a pattern at this point
a scary pattern that keeps repeating
It's like asking the winning team to admit that the game is not being played fair and it's their fault for even playing the game at all. why would they admit it? what do they have to apologize for? They're just playing the game like we are? They didn't make the rules, and sometimes people on the losing side work hard and become stand out players. why dwell on the past? let's just work hard and move forward (that's sarcasm folks)
Africans
African-Americans
Brazilians
and other Latin Americans
and Caribbean Americans
and various Indigenous Peoples and Aborigines
all deserve much more than an apology
but I won't hold my breath
I will do what I can to little by little undo the abuse/internalized and external racism. I will remember love while refusing to forget the truth of our collective past.
Even if Australia did apologize
they owe us all a lot more than that!
"WHO'S ON TOP & WHO'S ON BOTTOM NOW, huh?! WHO'S ON TOP & WHO'S ON BOTTOM NOW!"
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Tripod158 proves my point exactly
and that is why there will be this continuing divide
An apology means admitting that there is something wrong
It is not just about blame, but to say that you have no involvement is a joke
especially when most live off the fruits of that abuse/genocide
the fact that you hear my comment as whining
the fact that you question my intelligence
the fact that you bring up jews (who are NOT BLACK PEOPLE and have NOTHING TO DO WITH MY ORIGINAL POINT AT ALL)
all reinforces my original point
The holocaust was a horrible atrocity but it does not compare to the systematic abuse of black people around the word. It lasted approximately 13 yrs in total - after which they were introduced into society and given the same rights as the rest of the white world. You are comparing that to approximately 100 years of legislative classism & removals of 'half-caste' aborigines. Each year we pledge to never forget the holocaust and are reminded of the suffering of concentration camp victims. I've never even heard of 'The Stolen Generation' until Rabbit-Proof Fence. And other attempts at genocide don't even get the honor of being called genocide (Rwanda) - but that's just more whining huh?
according to you one persons pain is another persons pleasure so just admit that and keep it moving. If I rob you of your life savings and pass it on to my kids while you beg for money in the streets denialism is my children's right isn't it? you're just too lazy to make more money so stop whining and get a job, right?
The greatest sufferers of Denialism are the ones who reap the benefits.
"WHO'S ON TOP & WHO'S ON BOTTOM NOW, huh?! WHO'S ON TOP & WHO'S ON BOTTOM NOW!"
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There have been no where near as many blacks that have been killed by Europeans??
let's actually compare that statement to facts then shall we?
like the the approx number of death during the holocaust being 5-6 million
compared to the approx amount of deaths during the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade (8 million)
in layman's terms that means just on the boat ride to the horrors of slavery.
but it is ignorant to compare these two separate atrocities because
one deals with an unsuccessful attempt at genocide that shocks the world and that we make note of never forgetting.
and another with the SUCCESSFUL systematic brainwashing, abuse, brutal classism, and dehumanization of 'black people' from the 15th century to the 19th century ( and again we are just talking about the slave trade - not even touching more modern atrocities) that people barely speak about.
But again the holocaust has NOTHING TO DO WITH MY ORIGINAL POINT.
funny how you so easily bring up the Holocaust instead of actually talking about the worldwide atrocities against blacks. is it due to ignorance or just denialism rearing it's ugly head. probably both.
none of this is a lol matter in the least
"WHO'S ON TOP & WHO'S ON BOTTOM NOW, huh?! WHO'S ON TOP & WHO'S ON BOTTOM NOW!"
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oh, so you are too far along in your ignorance to actually have a conversation on this matter.
i suggest reading. for example actually read about the congo free state -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State . try maybe even a whole book. i know - i know, dare to dream.
if it is your goal to get me going by saying the stupidest things possible, you won.
if your goal was to be a living embodiment of my original point, you've won again.
i can't continue this conversation for i am not fluent in nonsense, so i don't really understand it when you speak it.
"WHO'S ON TOP & WHO'S ON BOTTOM NOW, huh?! WHO'S ON TOP & WHO'S ON BOTTOM NOW!"
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original poster here again..
it doesn,t matter how many or how few suffered, if one person suffers then it is wrong....
long before any whites arrived in australia, there were the aboriginal people, did they at that time suffer from, alcoholism, unemployment, racist segregation and abuse???
I think not, that was foisted on the by the invading europeans....
but i do think that the present government should come out and state that what their predecessors did was wrong, maybe thay already have, if so cool...
but at the end of the day, an indiginous people were abused, had their liberties taken away, and had their culture trampled, what ever else has happened in the world, and whatever else has been done to any individual, the facts remain, and no abount of comparison, apologism or attempts to brush it under history's rug can change that....
There have been no where near as many blacks that have been killed by Europeans??!!!
let's actually compare that statement to facts then shall we?
like the the approx number of death during the holocaust being 5-6 million
compared to the approx amount of deaths during the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade (8 million)
in layman's terms that means just on the boat ride to the horrors of slavery.
but it is ignorant to compare these two separate atrocities because
one deals with an unsuccessful attempt at genocide that shocks the world and that we make note of never forgetting.
and another with the SUCCESSFUL systematic brainwashing, abuse, brutal classism, and dehumanization of 'black people' from the 15th century to the 19th century ( and again we are just talking about the slave trade - not even touching more modern atrocities) that people barely speak about.
But again the holocaust has NOTHING TO DO WITH MY ORIGINAL POINT.
funny how you so easily bring up the Holocaust instead of actually talking about the worldwide atrocities against blacks. is it due to ignorance or just denialism rearing it's ugly head. probably both.
none of this is a lol matter in the least
"WHO'S ON TOP & WHO'S ON BOTTOM NOW, huh?! WHO'S ON TOP & WHO'S ON BOTTOM NOW!"
Now I'm Australian and Arabic. But Aborigines can ask for their land, they can ask for freedom and rights, but for the government to say sorry to them for a time when they were not the culprits, how is that their fault?
Now I do not mind Aborigines and they are nice people, but then you meet those ones who have just some real bad issues and do worse than the whites. Now I pity them that they have lost a lot, but if they continue this depression, then they are making it worse for themselves than the white people have.
There are Aboriginal people who are even racist to me about me having an Arabic background, and I get it a lot ffrom them and they have never apologised and that is the way the world is. But if you start to let bug you so much you become your own worst enemy. That is what the Aboriginals have become and a lot of these people are asking for an apology. Also If the government said sorry, then the Aborigini's will ask for much more and more and more. But unfortnately this is the world we live in. Anglicans against Catholics, Americans against Native Americans And White Australia vs Indigenous Australia.
"Also If the government said sorry, then the Aborigini's will ask for much more and more and more."
would that be to ask for more and more and more of the homeland that is rightfully theirs????
Naturally every group has bad people in it, what I am simply saying that dismissing one type of racism by pointing out another is irrelevant...
The whole point is that a government or series of governments supported a racially bigoted system of kidnap and internment, and I wanted to know if at any stage the government has said that what happened to there children was wrong.
Most governments, when elected, will be full of promises to put to right the mistakes that their predecessors made, and to show that they are progressive, if they acknowledge that the previous governments were wrong in public, then that would certainly show their desire to move forward...
There seems to be a negative attitude here also, insofar as some posters think that Aboriginals will seek compensation if they we're shown to have been wronged.
Well, if I was kidnapped and forced into servitude against my will, or if it happened to a relative I'd feel that compensation for the violation of human rights was appropriate.
The British government recently apologised to the families of men wrongfully shot during WW1 accused of desertion, so it's nothing unusual for one Government to apologise for the wrongdoings of another.
Australia belongs first and foremost to the Aboriginal people in somuch as a land can belong to a people, and the trespasses and miscarriages of justice foisted upon them need to be redressed, regardless of someones opinion that they think they'll moan about compo or that they have drink problems...
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So in otherwords. Everyone is taking eachothers land.
share[deleted]
but it doesn't mean its right
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"Well it's not happening anymore"
You aren't serious, are you?
nevermind. hope you're as open-minded when "they" come for "you"
"WHO'S ON TOP & WHO'S ON BOTTOM NOW, huh?! WHO'S ON TOP & WHO'S ON BOTTOM NOW!"
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Survival of the fittest, is not the same as survival of those with the most money and biggest guns..... and anyway, how do you that the stone age wasn't a cool time compared to the smoggy, irradiated, war-hungry age of rape, hatred and rendition flights we now live in???
Catching a fish, lighting a fire, mating at random..... fitting it all into 35 yrs, sounds like a decent life....
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this whole damn thread smacks of australias backwardsarsed retarded 'education' system - where the subject 'australian history' begins with the gold rushes.
friggin morons. read a damn book some time, if you actually can. i suggest 'white man jump up'.
or perhaps a newspaper, and youd know about the mass military invasions of 40+ aboriginal townships that occurred just weeks ago, *beep*
tripod....
Just because a whole lot of genocidal invaders haven't apologised for their crimes, doesn't mean that white australian history can be let off the hook...
this is a thread about a film, and it's particular subject, and I'm addressing that singularly, and not trying to dilute it with other shameful incidents...
Australian children were kidnapped from their parents by the government.... I wonder if they were fully white would there be more outrage, i suspect that some of the people trying to denigrate my point here are secretly (or maybe openly) completely unsympathetic to the plight of these stolen innocents...
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Lifelike...I don't think the 'mass military raids' can even be mentioned in the same breath as any of the past treatments against aborigines. Howard is trying to help remember? I don't know if this is the right way of doing it, but at least he is doing something about the shocking abuse.
People have missed the mark in this thread I agree. Jews have probably been persecuted just as much as blacks if you look back through the years. I think therr is a fine line between respecting the Aborigines culture and to a certain extend land, and letting them get away with anything because they are the native race. Here in NZ, we unfortunately have a number of maori leaders who exploit their power in promoting ridculous demands on the rest of the ethinicitys ie The maori should own the beaches, sea bed etc.
We can never forget past treatment of Aborgines, Jews or Maoris etc but it is now 2007, and at some point these races need to move on with their lifes. For what I can gather Jews atre doing this week, Some Maoris are moving on and some aren't and the same probably goes for the Aborgines.
if you think a military strike which constitutes an act of war is 'help' youre beyond help yourself!!
just picture the same activities in a different country, in a different culture. thered be a civil war. a national outcry. here we are so apathetic and self interested it didnt even make the cover of the newspaper.
im sure it would be nice for us all to move on - particularly us whites - but the fact is this is NOT a matter of ancient history. this country is only 200 years white remember - the reason the government wont apologise is because the direct descendants of those specifically responsible for the aboriginal genocide are STILL ALIVE.
you cant deny history and move on from it if you dont accept it ever happened.
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*LMFAO* as a lawyer, thats the first time ive been called a bleeding heart liberal, thanks!
share[deleted]
well
I now have the answer, or at least an answer of sorts to my primary question...
Its interesting that if you bait a hook with a statement about racism, the racists all rise to it.
I no longer expect a civil answer or indeed balanced answer...
just one sided ignorant rants about liberals, and how the victims actually benefit cos they're all child molesters and diseased.... these were the type of arguments put by people like the Nazis for the extermination of their enemies and perceived enemies....
I feel genuinely sorry for a race of people that lives in a country which has been taken from them and occupied by others who have so little regard..
I know not all Australians are bigoted like some who've posted here, just like any race, there are individuals who act with honour and decency... but some here seem to forget that we are All human and all have the same rights...
Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves, but then it's so easy, with the anonymity of the internet to vent the baser opinions and bile of ignorance..
rot in hell scum, you know who you are...
the rest of you? thanks for your open mindedness
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If you are calling me racist after what I said, then you should be ashamed of yourself. If anyone reads my comment properly, I'm telling you guys I have seen Aborigines be very racist. Very. They contradict their lifestyle when they call Arabic people Imbreds. Well I love history so I researched so you guys can not complain and say I am biased and I discovered a couple of weeks ago that they had relations with close family members and they go at the Arabic community. I feel sorry for them, but it does not justify their means of retaliation. I know there are nice Aborigines out there, but I do not see how this kind of attack on Arabic people makes it any better.
And lets not complain about the government all the time. Sure they can do bad things, but i doubt that they are so defiant and racist that they would give the Aborigines the cold shoulder. The ones at blame are really the communities of Australia at that time. Australians could see on TV the Vietnam war and felt sorry for the Vietnamese and the soldiers who were in ill condition, but they see Aborigines on TV all the time how they suffer and did not pay as much attenion. To fix the problem is not just the governments responsibility. It is ours as Australian citizens. We cannot give them a reason to hate us or think that we are the demons. But that does not make us racist. Racism is bad mouthing a persons culture therefore degrading the person. So infinitefeedback. Do not give us all this crap about being racist. If you have nothing sensible to say, do not say anything at all. Think about what you are posting here real hard before you call any one of us racist.
if you generalise about a race of people in a negative way, you are in danger of being accused....
i never said everyone here is racist.... but making statements like: "I discovered a couple of weeks ago that they had relations with close family members and they go at the Arabic community", is dangerous, because you have used the word "they".
it also seems that "they" represent everything that australian history would rather forget...
i'm a bit tired of this thread to be honest, cos it's just all reactionary, and everything is just based on comparison, rather than looking directly at the problem.... if an indigenous people are marginalised in their own country, then something is wrong with the social structure of that country (I know that's almost a pandemic), and it's is up to those within that structure, with the capacity to do so, to redress that balance, and I'm not saying that every white aussie has to stand up and say sorry, or that everyone has to take abuse, what I'm saying is that as long as the marginalisation persists, it is up to the powers that be to correct that situation and repair the damage, they can't just sit there saying: "it wasn't us, so we'll do nothing", cos the persistence of inequality is the responsibility of those with the capacity to change it.
Dangerous. How? The Aborigines complain pretty about other people like Arabic people with relations, but it is a common fact they did it as well in their history. All I am getting is saying how come Aborigines always complain about racism.
shareArguably the most ridiculous user on IMDb (although up against some very stiff competition).
Someone who needs to hide their obviously crippling personal insecurity under a veil of racist misoginy as one to be pitied more than anything else.
Proud member of COW-DJ
BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAA 'lawyers are suck ups'. well call out the national guard, i think weve located the worlds most convincing argument right here.
now you just need to put it in english, insert some sense, thought and logic, and then maybe youll be allowed to sit at the big kids table. maybe.
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thanks, for that Tripod, I didn't hear about any "mass raids" either. This person seems to have ignored my balanced argument and instead focused on the fact that the whites haven't apologised properly. There's no pleasing some I guess.
shareI am not sure if you are Australian or not? It doesn't sound like it that's all... Anyway a very tough but relevant topic.
Now I am not an expert on this matter, but as an Aussie I believe that Aboriginal people are being compensated for the wrong-doings in the past. They are able to get a lot more government payments than any other person due to the fact that they are Aboriginal. There are also a lot of scholarships and jobs that are given selectively to Aboriginal people. I even know some Aboriginal people with whom I am friends, who say that a lot of Aboriginal people's problems stem from the monetary assistance they receive from the government. It gives them the money they need to go and buy grog and smokes. And of course because the government supports them, they just drink and smoke all day and don't even need to work! Yay!
These Aboriginal people I know think a lot of Aboriginal people would be better off if they WEREN'T given assistance from the government! Just so you know, I am not racist, I know and love all the Aboriginal people that I am friends with, I think of them the same as any of my other friends. However I have visited one particular Aboriginal community that really showed me some terrible things. The children are very skinny. They hardly ever turn up to school. On the days their parents get their government money they don't turn up to school, because on these days they need to get whatever money they can from their parents (for food!) before they go and spend it all at the pub before they get back from school. The petrol bowsers are locked up all the time because of people sniffing the fuel. If you drive around the town people are just gathered on their front lawns of their houses (provided by the government), smoking, drinking and talking. All day every day. There is violence, there is drugs, there is a LOT of sexual abuse in this small little community. This is what their children see. So this is what their children end up doing. How is this government "help" helping them????? This being said, a lot of Aboriginal people are decent - very hardworking and very honest. The ones who are decent, honest and hardworking would I doubt be the ones wanting the sorry from the government, or wanting extra compensation. Just like we have our bad-eggs in any race, any society, there will be the bad eggs who want to take everything they can get, out of greediness, out of addiction to whatever substance. These are the ones I'd be worried about if the 'SORRY' from the government happened.
From what I understand, if the government said "Sorry" on behalf of the nation and the government, the country would be in a bit of a dilemma. Law suits would be filed for money. Land would probably be taken from the farmers and where people live (Aboriginal sacred land). Now I know a selection of our ancestors were the ones who took the land from the Aboriginal people in the first place. This was wrong, and the fact is that it just shouldn't have happened in the first place. I am sincerely regretful that it happened, but it wasn't me doing it and I don't even know if it was any of my ancestors either! There is nothing any of us could ever do to go back and change what happened - unfortunate but true. I don't think there is anything we can say that will automatically make the Aboriginal people from the time feel any better about what happened. But, how can we suddenly give back all the land that we took when there are houses and farms all over it and now there is an economy to uphold?
You stated:
'Well, if I was kidnapped and forced into servitude against my will, or if it happened to a relative I'd feel that compensation for the violation of human rights was appropriate.'
So what sort of compensation do you mean?? Because I don't know what sort of compensation can suddenly make a difference to these people lives...
Admitting regret over what has happened is what the government has done, and personally I don't see why this isn't enough. Saying the word 'sorry' is putting the responsibility and blame on the current government and the current people at Australia. If your Great great grandfather murdered someone years ago, would you say sorry..? I think not... how could you say sorry because you are not him, and how would you know he was sorry for it anyway? But you could express your sincere regret that it happened and that it was wrong.
Have a look at the website below. It kinda shows how much the prime minister has to be very careful about what he says regarding this for legal reasons...
http://www.abc.net.au/am/stories/s47078.htm
That is a very good point. I agree. And I am not going at all Aboriginals. A lot of them are nice people, but there are just so many teenage ones with attitudes. And in schools they love to pick fights. But that does not mean the same for all Aborigines. Just like every race tere are those bad eggs. More in some areas than others.
shareFinally Mevans..
someone who expresses something along the line of balance... Zacattack, every set of people have teenagers with bad attitudes who like to pick fights.... and generally any excuse to differentiate from others is used.... when I was in school it could be as simple as which side of the street you lived on.... and I went to an all white, all catholic school in ireland in the 70s.. (there was also a LOT of child abuse about)
Mevans, you've answered more of my questions and I have a clearer pic now, so thanks, a lot of other posters didn't seem to be able to suppress their more negative inclinations.
No I know what you were saying and I knew how to answer it, but I'm just saying how I do not agree that they should talk so badly about abuse, if you get what I mean. That is what other people were sasying as well. In a board you have got to expect other topics to be aroused from one. And that happens.
People who have replyed to my original posts bring up different topics with a little bit of relation to my topics. So I'm just saying, expect other topics to come up.
The half-castes have notoriously bad attitudes.
Happy one day, Pissed the next
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have you met every single one of them???? so that you can have an informed opinion???
it's interesting to see how many of any demographic group behave ignorantly, it's easy to point a finger when one isn't pointing back....
Wow now that's a generalization. Do you sometimes have good days and bad? Doesn't everyone? I guess we're all half-caste then. Ship me off to an institute in australia. I deserve to be there. Maybe if everyone became more white then everyone will have the right attitude, because all white people are good, kind people, yes sirrree. Never met a white person with a bad attitude. They just don't exist in the world. Russell Crowe who? (note the sarcasm and extensive use of generalizations)
shareI agree that an apology is not needed. what is needed is restructuring of your society to include aboriginals in your government, in your daily lives. Whoever said that giving money to a people is going to ''fix'' things is wrong. How many underprivileged people have succeeded after you throw money in their faces? Think about it. If you were not doing anything and all of a sudden you are given money, would you strive to succeed? would you do anything except spend that money? More access to opportunity is needed in your country. It's ridiculous that you didn't know what to do with aboriginal people so you just threw money in their faces. How many aboriginal ministers are there that can address aboriginal issues? How many are actually represented in every day society? Your media is whitewashed, your universities are whitewashed, aboriginal people are not given an opportunity to prove themselves and those that are have to work their asses off for those opportunities. Stop throwing money in the aboriginal people's faces. It's insulting, and start using that money to educate white, arab or other groups in your country to respect aboriginal culture and learn their beliefs and their values, then maybe one day you will see progress...
share"Each year we pledge to never forget the holocaust and are reminded of the suffering of concentration camp victims. I've never even heard of 'The Stolen Generation' until Rabbit-Proof Fence."
nough said. Thank you. I didn't know about any of this until Rabbit Proof Fence, yet there are countless accounts of the Holocaust in film and I'm glad about the latter, but the former should be acknowledged as well. We can't erase the past, and an apology won't really do it but at least it'll show some recognition. All I can ask for is some recognition so that we could learn from our mistakes so that they won't be repeated elsewhere. Children were taken from their mothers...I would never want to be in that position, even as an adult, if someone offered me all the goodies in the world in exchange for my mother, I wouldn't do it. I think one of the reasons some don't apologize is because they are saying it wasn't as atrocious as others make it out to be. How many people must suffer before it becomes atrocious enough to be recognized? Isn't that how genocide happens?
@ManicMuse
I know this is an old post, but thanks you for saying what you said anyway, because it's the truth.
just let you's know my father was taken away from his parents. and place in New Norcia! the only Monastry town in OZ. now a couple hundred K's down the road there was a college where caucasian kids were abused and paid out compensation for the crimes that the priests did to them. that also happened at the place my father was. but when they filed for the compensation. they were denied, on basis of they didnt care.....
how does that make u feel? if u were the government of that day of age. 1960's. AO Neville?
I guess its just like today's Germans apologizing for their history. It wasn't their fault, it may not have even been their parents fault...if they had nothing to do with Nazi Germany then why should they apologize?
Now use this and swap Nazi Germany with white supremists.
White supremacists need to be making amends for what they're doing right now, not what they done yrs ago, the difference is they're still out there poisoning this world.
shareIsn't that a little harsh. And also I thought we are talking about Australia, not the world. Sure there are many racial problems in the world, but I thought we are talking about Australia. Can someone explain to me if we are talking about Australia or the world, because now I am confused.
shareI'm just commenting on the last line of the Post before me, that's all, has little to do with the thread really
shareOh ok, thanks for clarifying that.
share
"The stolen generation is a myth, it never happened, the Aboriginal children that were taken away were taken away for their own good because the children were abandoned abused and neglected. It was really the rescued generation."
I have worked for an organisation called link up that help repatriate victims of the stolen generation with the family they have never known. Its certainly not a myth Ive I worked in that industry for 4 years.
"The sexual abuse of children that occurs in Aboriginal communities is horrendous, children as young as three years old are raped and babies as young as 5 months old have been raped, there have also been 1 year old babies that have been gang raped by eight men."
Some extreme examples, all given without quoted sources. assuming it is actually correct, this also occurs in white communities too. Toowoomba for instance has the highest domestic violence murder rate in the Australia, and that is small town in queensland made up of predominantly white god fearing christians. George Bush for instance was mentioned in a FBI report on homosexual brothels in Washington. But you wont read about that in the popular media and Australias prime minister has been cheating on his wife with a prostitute for years. Thats why he doesnt live in Canberra, his wife threatened to go public with it, if he didnt setup shop in Sydney.
"Almost every Aboriginal child has suffered abuse and it is extremely rare to find an Aboriginal child that hasn't been abused, and because of all the political correctness of today Aboriginal children that are abused neglected and abandoned are not allowed to be taken away because if they are the bleeding hearts like you and the Aboriginal activists will cry racism and will make accusations of there being another stolen generation. Also why don't you go and visit an Aboriginal reserve to see for yourself how attrocious the living conditions are, the living conditions are third world and this is despite the Australian government having spent billions on the Aboriginals to try and improve their living conditions."
This may shock you Tripod but the majority of Aboriginal people live in cities, work jobs and have a mortgage or own their own businesses like I do etc.
The point Tripod and most other ignorant people do not know is that the money spent on supposedly helping Aboriginal people in the outback is given to white people to administer the situation. Most of the actual money is sucked up by white bureaucrats as wages or put into ineffective programs written by these same white people who have absolutely no clue how to actually help people of a different culture and language (In some remote communities, English is the 5th or 6th preferred language). Since they never listen to Aboriginal people, these programs are doomed to fail. But they earn a hundred grand or so a year to do it so what do they care ?
And as anyone who has lived in small communities will tell you, there is always an amount of distrust when city folk come riding into town, with fancy ideas.
Thats the truth.
And then ignorant people like tripod read headlines that shout 'millions spent on 'Aboriginal welfare but it doesnt seem to be helping', while people like you blame Aboriginal people for the problem. Its the same with the intervention now. Notice all the white people that are suddenly being employed by John Howard to quote unquote 'help the blacks' ? White federal police, White public servants, white doctors, white bureaucrats, white this, white that and none of them are employing much less actually communicating with the local Aboriginal elders.
The John Howard Government has not only done nothing for Aboriginal people in 11 years, but has actively sought to destroy their lives. The fact we have this problem in remote communities, is because PM Howard has cut hundreds of millions of dollars out of funding for public housing. No one seems to want to mention that in the media. Lack of accomodation obviously affects health and welfare. These issue face white people in the cities as much as it does blacks in the outback.
Apart from being a sly attempt to gain quick votes, the intervention will not work.
Because it will only further enrich educated middle class white bureaucrats, who ultimately care more about their bank balances then about actually helping anybody.
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I know what you are saying, but if we are just going to attack John Howard and say 'I hate John Howard' instead of 'well we are Australian citizens, and maybe we should force the government for change, as they have to listen to our pleas'. Then where are we getting with this debate. We have one side saying John Howard is a horrible Prime minister and we have another side who are making up stuff about Aborigines and white people.
We cannot just lose our heads like this.
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This concept of an apology has always *beep* me.
As a white Australian, I get a lot of the Aboriginal community acting like I owe them something. Racism goes both ways...
What happened to the Aboriginal community was abhorrent, but happened so long ago, and they're still whining about it. The government cannot apologize because that would allow every single person with aboriginal blood to sue the government.
And if that happens, I'll be right there to sue the British government for exporting my Irish ancestor down to this blistering hot desert of a country.
...
still better than the US though
Amen to that.
shareWhat happened to the Aboriginal community was abhorrent, but happened so long ago, and they're still whining about it.
____________________________________________________________________________
Is 36 years really that long ago?
So is 'whining' the correct term for overcoming trauma from 36 years ago?
So long ago my ass, I'm close to that age and I still recall my childhood vividly thankyou very much.
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John howard refuse and avoids the point of apologies when it comes to this topic..we survived and that is what counts...I recently met my uncle who was taken and yes it did hurt but there were no apologies as he was lucky to be alive and know better.
John howard it is not your fault of the past but a sorry would be nice, not for compensation but for acknowledgment. we don't want your money just acknowledgment that those things did happen and won't happen again.
thank you
kat
As an Aboriginal also I agree with that.
The assumption by Howard and other whitebred yuppies is that we Aborigines are as greedy as they are and as such assume it is all about compensation (which according to experts in land law like Father Francis Brennan QC is actually a fair point). Let us not forget, it is this misplaced trust in materialism that is destroying the very planet we all stand on.
It may come to pass that the hunter gatherer lifestyle was the right way after all. For arguments on that read the french writers of the enlightenment period.
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Yes, Australia has apologized.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Sorry_Day
Meredith - http://journal.amanita.net
People need to realize, Howard never apologized because then legally his government would have been at fault and blamed. Legal action could have been taken against the government for even more compensation then they've quietly received, although it is highly unlikely.
But I'm kinda glad Rudd's apologized, although there was, and probably is always that fear.
I as always bothered by the fact that Howard would not apologise to the Stolen Generations and yet he insisted that Japan issue an apology for its treatment of Australian WWII Prisoners of War. The Australian Federal Gov had control of the removal of Aboriginal children from 1967 to 1972 when the Assimilation/Integration policies were dropped. The state gov's controlled the policies before that. They've all apologised. Tasmania's gov has even set up a compensation fund. Seems that Japan's atrocities were earlier than the Federal Gov's. Howard's memory was always a bit selective though.
shareBut our soldiers were fighting for a good cause. I think you can believe what you want to believe, but I think Howard must have had good reasons. He would not just apologise because he is a jerk. He speaks on behalf of the people of Australia. That is the job of a PM in a democratic country such as ours. So he must have had good reasons, because obviously he would have heard about the complaints don't you think and he would have said why. And I agree with other posters on this thread about why he didn't apologise.
share