the character motivations in this film completely lacked plausibility. from almost the minute the subjects get in the prison, they're at each other's throats and taking the experiment way too seriously. the film never shows us how the guards develop from docile average joes into homicidal maniacs. it seems like they were homicial maniacs from the outset, which is lame.
I agree entirely, this movie lacks in plausibility. Not only in the guards characters, but also in the scientists. They don't ever seem to prepare to face every situation created by their own experience. And their motives are quite obscure, so we kind of wonder if they're not doing this just for fun. The movie itself remains quite suspenseful enough, especially near the end, so it's not a complete waste of time.
shareThat's one of the funniest things I've ever heard. I thought that this thread was a joke when I first opened it. Did you miss the part of the trailer where it said 'based on true events'? I've learned about the Standford Experiment TWICE so far in high school, and I still have a year to go!
Jeesh!
like the first 3-4 days are pretty factual, but the rest, to me, is about what if the experiment wasn't stopped on the 6th day like in real life.
Now, i don't remember them ever saying they peed on anybody, but I did read that there was faux sodomy to humiliate the prisoners.I wonder why that wasn't included.
I do think they could have shown the guards shift in behavior better. Like Elvis was kidding around with the guys and all of a sudden he turns into a rapist, and it just didn't make sense to me. And the study proved that 1/3rd of the guards "exhibited genuine sadistic tendencies."
One thing that was very different from what I understand is that there were police officers helping to collect the prisoners at first and there were many people who visited the experiment who had no moral problem with the situation. Only one woman did, and her objection helped to stop the experiment and the Professor listened to her and later married her. How romantic. :) Now if they kept the police participation and witnesses in the film, then that would have stopped all of the second half of the movie from occurring.
So the unrealistic changes, I think, is what kept the story going. Check out the wiki article to learn some basic info on the real happenings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
Local enforcements only participated in the arrest & booking procedures, to mke it seem realistic. After they saw how far out of control the experiment had gone they refused to participate anymore (in helping to move 'prisoners' to another facility).
shareThey did have some priest or some type of counselor from the police dept to be a mock rehabilitation plan or whatever too.. Sh!t got out of control quick with the guards in the real study however, and there was no basis for their motivation except implicit norms as well as they were given the power to do so.. Everyone conformed so quickly.. I do question Zimbardo's sincerity of his actions though.. This was his claim to fame so to speak, and is a landmark study in the psych field. And he seems to have leveraged this awareness
shareSorry but sometimes it is better to check facts before commenting!
Stanford Prison Experiment is real! It is something that have happened in real life with real people.
The film is based on that experiment and the book "black box". Just see for yourself! The experiment in Stanford was to take 2 weeks but had to be cancelled after just 6 days due to the sadistic behaviour that evolved in both prisoners and guards. And these were college students!!!!
Thank you. I hope the original posters find a good wheel chairs after all those shootings.
J.
hey you guys,
check this one out:
http://www.prisonexp.org/
it´s like the official site on the Stanford experiment
I found it on:
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/2002/09/27/entertainment/4166439.htm
where a story runs on how the original Stanford professor
takes a dislike to the German movie because of the liberties
taken while producing a suspense thriller based on the
St.exp. and the book Black Box
my own two cents: having spent a weekend in a police-cell,
I can tell you that it´s hard to depict what happens to
you, when you are enclosed between four walls with nothing
to do
stuff like de-sensitization, de-personalization and other
things that occurred, are very hard to explain, but it can
be done (think about famous prison-film The Hill with Sean
Connery - http://us.imdb.com/Title?0059274)
so, as Moritz Staytrue says,
"This is fiction, a suspense thriller, and a damn good one".
Good night & God speed,
Wales
Thanks for the interesting links! As I read, one thing strikes me--I wonder if others notice: does Zimbardo seem more than a little narcissistic to you? He does to me. Anyway, lots to read and think about here before I go jumping to any more conclusions tonight. I enjoyed the movie but also had a hard time believing the "guards" would get so violent so quickly.
share"Sorry but sometimes it is better to check facts before commenting!
Stanford Prison Experiment is real! It is something that have happened in real life with real people.
The film is based on that experiment and the book "black box". Just see for yourself! The experiment in Stanford was to take 2 weeks but had to be cancelled after just 6 days due to the sadistic behaviour that evolved in both prisoners and guards. And these were college students!!!! "
I read about that in college and saw video clips from it. I don't think I could see that film because of the real experiment. Too creepy. And the sadist treatment started rather early on too.
I think something slightly misleading about the comparison is that the experiment in Das Experiment was very different to the Stanford Prison Experiment!
The goal of the Stanford Prison Experiment was to see whether random, average people could be negatively influenced by the roles they found themselves in (e.g. as guards or prisoners). However it's made clear in Das Experiment that they do personally tests on the participants beforehand and filter them accordingly; they knew that Berus and Fahd had certain characteristics and it was somehow part of this experiment to pit them against each other.
I agree whole heartedly that there was no build up to the events that took place. Just because the movie is based on a real experimental study that does not mean that it was successful in making it seem plausible that men become
wild animals five minutes after the experiment starts. it seemed silly and implausible to me. you were always aware you were watching a film and watching bad acting-certainly not the hall mark of a successful film.
I was very disappointed in this movie.
I've studied Zimbardos prison experiment in school. In class we watched footage that was shot of the test subjects during the experiment and after it had to be cancelled. Those young sudents were total mental wrecks, they had been seriously shocked during the course of the experiment. The prison guards coulden't explain their behavior and and the prisoners were frightened to have seen the "true" sides of the people they thought they new. A young man on the verge of hysteria or panic attack said that he could no longer be friends with another student, who played the role of a guard.
It may be hard to believe that normal people could change that way and commit such attrocities. But such is the power of other people over us, it is part of the nature of man. In a group we change, the way we perceive situations changes, our motives change, our self control decreases as we blend into the mass and share responsability among the group.
Ofcourse this film was a dramatisation, but the way I see it is a what-if-scenario of what could have happened if they would have allowed the experiment to carry on without interruption. The loose ends in the film kind of bothered me aswell, lack of sufficient surveillance, minimal staff & both doctors being away, perhaps it relied on coincidence a bit too much to my taste. But I really enjoyed this one. I have educational intrest in the subject and explicitly sought to view this film, already being familiar with the original setting. But it wasn't meant to be _real_. I'd recommend watching this if you enjoyed the suspense in eg. the Cube, these movies have quite similar themes. (Don´t see Cube^2!) Taking part in the nationality debate, im Finnish!
Well, to say its unrealistic for them to go so mental so fast..im not sure i agree 100%
firstly they took it as a joke at first, but the guards motivated by the money, and not wanting the prisoners to jepordise thier chances at reciving the cash felt they had to keep them in check..which i would imagin would be a fairly realistic situation.
I wasnt aware this was based on a true story..ill be sure to read up on that now, thanks for that info.
Yeah I've been reading this experiment over and over basically all year for Psychology, and yes they did start acting very crazy to the point where they cancelled the experiment saying it was 'in-humane' to do that to the subjects.
I don’t want to be another ‘I-don’t-care-ican'
What are we gonna do Franco, Franco Un-American?
I'm currently reading the book 'The Lucifer Effect' by Philip Zimbardo (who for those that don't know was the original director [as in the social experiment, not the film] of the experiment). Disturbing but interesting stuff.
Das Experiment may have it's fair share of cinematic embellishments but overall I think its a very, very good film.
I think people who believe they'd never be capable of acting in unpleasant ways are just fearful of the truth.
Hovis!
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I think people are missing something when they watch this film. To me its obvious that the director was making a point about the holocaust. In this way it reminded me of Pasolini's 120 Days of Sodom, reworking source material to make a point about political systems and human nature. When viewed through this framework i think that the issue of plausability is far less important than the issue of emotional resonance. No, the real stanford prison experiment didn't go as far as the one presented here (though it did have the same immediate dehumanizing qualities), but there have been many times in human histories where the wearing of uniforms alone created incidences of horror. I liked it.
shareI don't agree. They have created groups by psychologic profiles so they expected behaviour like this. It was little accelerated but never underestimate human psychology.
shareActually, the trailer that a previous poster refers to said it was NOT based on a true story. This movie was NOT based on the experiments referred to earlier. Also, the character's actions did seem outlandish (all of them). This movie was worth watching, but just not very good.
sharehey man before you go spouting off about this movie not being based on reality, check out the article on this website http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/2002/09/27/entertainment/4166439.htm
which discusses the stanford lawyers deal with the german studio who created it....the first 200 copies of the film say the movie was inspired by the Stanford Prison Experiment.....check it out for yourselves
Some exerpts of the real experiment that will probably make you stop arguing NOW that this movie was not based on a real life experience. It's sad that people are ignorant enough to not even follow a simple link and read, something our brain does quite simply once we learn how :
"Because the first day passed without incident, we were surprised and totally unprepared for the rebellion which broke out on the morning of the second day. The prisoners removed their stocking caps, ripped off their numbers, and barricaded themselves inside the cells by putting their beds against the door. And now the problem was, what were we going to do about this rebellion? The guards were very much angered and frustrated because the prisoners also began to taunt and curse them. When the morning shift of guards came on, they became upset at the night shift who, they felt, must have been too lenient. The guards had to handle the rebellion themselves, and what they did was fascinating for the staff to behold. "
"The guards met and decided to treat force with force"
"They got a fire extinguisher which shot a stream of skin-chilling carbon dioxide, and they forced the prisoners away from the doors."
"The guards broke into each cell, stripped the prisoners naked, took the beds out, forced the ringleaders of the prisoner rebellion into solitary confinement, and generally began to harass and intimidate the prisoners. "
http://www.prisonexp.org/index.html
I definitely had some plausibility problems with the film, but I suppose I could rationalize them away pretty easily...
I already knew that it was based on a real life experiment going in, and I already knew that it would be very loosely based on it and exaggerated a great deal for dramatic effect. I suspect a faithful reproduction of the original experiment might not make a very engaging film, though I could be wrong.
It seemed to me that the guards began engaging sadistic behavior a little too quickly and without enough prompting. The fire extinguisher thing seemed believable, but the guy who was allergic to milk had done nothing that called for punishment. I had a hard time buying that not a single guard would stand up and say that abusing him was completely uncalled for since he was clearly vomiting when he drank the milk. I understand that the main character had made it a focal point in the power struggle, but still I think in and random group of people at least one would object. But there were bigger problems than just that.
Of course the real plausibility problem, for me anyway, came later when the guards went berserk and began beating other guards, killing prisoners, kidnapping the scientists, torturing, attempting rape etc. Not that I don't believe people can act that way when given the opportunity to abuse power. But the simple fact is that any remotely rational person would realize that there would be consequences for this behavior and that they wouldn't get away with it, but were likely to soon be real prisoners in a real jail themselves. I can accept maybe one guard going off the deep end like that, but not the majority. Basic self preservation would have kept them from going so far, given the premise. Unless of course the premise is that bad luck led to a more that statistically probable number of psychopaths showing up for the experiment, which I suppose is possible.
Oh, and here's a big one. If they didn't want the guards to use violence *why did they give them weapons?* (billy clubs)
OTOH, I think it's ok to allow a bit of dramatic license in the film... It gave a pretty good illustration of the mechanics of fascism, and was interesting on that level.
Ultimately, even though it was pretty well done and very well acted, I didn't like it because I don't like to sit and watch pointless brutality very much. The movie sucked me in at the beginning by hinting at other plot threads in the main character's life and leading me to believe that there might be more story there rather than 2 hours of torture and humiliation. Why had the main character not done any work in two years? What exactly was the military's involvement, and why did they place the "mole?" Is there more to the romantic subplot, or is the girlfriend just a plot device? I felt these things drew me in but were never really delivered on. The brutality peaked and then the film just ended.
I agree that the film failed to develop some potentially interesting sub-plots, such as the girlfriend. But to those who think it is implausible, I suggest you have a thorough look at the findings of the original 1971 experiment. Within six days the prisoners were de-humanized, turning on each other and losing their identity, the guards were getting out of control, which is why the experiment was stopped. This film simply speculates as to what could have happened had they not stopped the experiment, and if you look at it as a chain of individual events, then it really isn't that hard to swallow.
Does he look like a bitch? Then why you trying to fu.ck him like a bitch?
In understand what everyone is saying about the results of the original experiment, etc, but the fact is that if an experiment like this were enough to cause the guards to lose their minds to such a degree that they began indisciminately assaulitng people who weren't even involved in the experiment, then real life prison guards would constantly be taking their wardens and random prison visitors captive every day... *That's* why the film isn't plausible. It has a kernel of truth yes, but it goes too far in exaggerating the outcome.
share[deleted]
And of course,your premise is faulty. A prison isn't run by 2 researchers who absent themselves 6 guards. There is an entire system which is overseen by a greater system,etc. Rotten apples are caught and thrown out. I understand Americans would have trouble having faith in the system. The penal system is backward at best. In many parts of Europe,incarceration is more like a dorm room system and recidivism is rare.
share exactly what i felt too, Frungy. every word of what you said.
"Lastly, men,particularly
European,when naked, don't cover themselves unless they're hung like mice(which would have made better subjects to watch and study for this person). "
Mossbie, how about an analysis of american cinema ? Hollywood perhaps ? How about depicting how f**@#? unrealistic are love scenes ? How real is it to make love completely dressed or wrapped around your sheets ? I simply cannot believe that you actually find plausible behaviours in Survivor episodes, which are nothing but MADE UP by hollywood crappy productors, and that you can't find this movie to be plausible.
The acting of that movie is amazing and the situation depicted extremely plausible. What happens in this movie is a reflection of our human nature and a mirror of the history of this world. Anyone not realizing this is either a complete idiot or a naive little teddybear who should continue watching walt disney movies. ANY man, ANY single man put in extreme situations will react in the EXACT same manner as depicted. Examples of extreme situations:
- the daily humiliation and murder of the palestinian people by the fascists zionists of israel. It leads to extreme behaviour, like blowing up yourself up because there's nothing else. Hey Mossbie, do you believe in the suicide-killers, or is that not plausible to you ??
- 1 million people in the streets chopped down to pieces, blown up to smithereens, all happened in less than 2 months between the Hittites and the Hutus and the Tutsis in Rwanda. STOP watching brainwashing CNN, and read about what really happens out there on independant media.
- the 20 million or so people annihilated by Lenin and how normal soldiers came to be disgusting sadists
- the holocaust
- the armenian holocaust
- I could go on for EONS giving similar examples of extreme situations/extreme behaviours going back to the dawn of man.
Enough said...
cheers,
melkiades
@ melkiades on Fri Oct 24 2003 10:12:25
Well said mate. Exactly my thoughts.
Sign:
A nature loving atheist
What might be interesting to know is that the actors actually started to pick up behavior patterns of their movie characters during the production. The director said in an interview that he was almost frightened when he saw the "prisoners" sitting together at lunch aside from the "guards"... And mind that in real life they did _not_ press on each other, there was no terror on the guards' behalf.
shareI loved the movie. I think it's an realistic situation, comapring it to Zimbardo. It IS a movie, so of course this goes further. But the psychological reactions shown, are REAL. Buy it or not, people in the real experiment started to lose their grip of reality, they actually thought that they couldn't just walk away from it. The guards actually DID put prisoners naked in their cells without a bed and blindfolded them. Please see the difference between real and fake.
I WANT YOUR BRAIN!
You have to have some belief in a film to get its intentions, I think that simply the environment (EXACTLY like THE SHINING) can change your psychology into over-obsessive maniacs.
"this is it" "chew some gum your breath smells like my grandmothers feet" THE CHASE
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