MovieChat Forums > Baise-moi (2000) Discussion > Why mature women like this film more tha...

Why mature women like this film more than men?

posted 18 years ago by saido
22 replies | jump to latest

Coming from non-western conservative society, I was very much disappointed from the making of sex as so commercial and cheap in the west. I thought the freedom of expression could have produced a much better attitude towards sex. I told this to a friend of my wife, she did not agree and gave me an example of Baise Moi, as a bad film tried to bridge porno with drama! She thinks, explicit films about sex, or sex films, or porno, are all different names for the same thing (she is an academic, and in social sciences!) I totally disagreed with her as I think explicit sex does not have to be cheap or vulgar, for me sex is the second best thing in life! Not only it does not have to be cheap, commercial and vulgar, but it should be as good as it is important in human life (we all know how important sex is) I was naturally curious to watch Baise Moi and watched it with my wife.

Here are my notes.

This film is not done to be pleasing, or to entertain you! It is done to be shocking as it magnifies a global disorder of increasing violence and bad attitude to sex. Actually, the sex scenes are not that disturbing in the movie while rape and violence are!

The film is a violent fantasy reaction of two women who are tired of the domination of men in life, sex, and even in being violent. It is all about psychology and expectations. Many men would not like this, and would rather enjoy the explicit sex scenes or hunt for a philosophical aspect. However, many cannot sexually enjoy the explicit sex in the movie, unless they are total idiots, as this would exactly classify them like the idiots the two women killed in the movie. They did not kill all the men they slept with but they killed the idiots who just looked at them as sex objects or dealt with sex in this regard as in the sex club!

To know that, the Star actress Karen Lancaume committed suicide last year (five years after doing this film) and that what she tried to do at the end scene of the movie, makes me wonder if there is a direct or indirect relation between the suicide in real life and the attempt in the movie!?

(in IMDB This film is best rated by women over 45 why!?) because they know it! It is not a playboy type movie aiming at pleasing men, nor a typical men-type violent movie! However, in the contrary, it is a movie tired of the whole media doing always so!

I gave it 6.5 and I think if I was a woman over 45 maybe I would have given it 8 ;-)

[–] stendhal53 18 years ago

"To know that, the Star actress Karen Lancaume committed suicide last year (five years after doing this film) and that what she tried to do at the end scene of the movie, makes me wonder if there is a direct or indirect relation between the suicide in real life and the attempt in the movie!?"

I remember feeling shocked when I heard about this - all the more so because of the two lead actresses, Karen Bach/Lancaume was the one who seemed to have led a more "normal life". Raffaela Anderson had actually been gang-raped by two fans in real life (she described the rape scene as her "act of revenge" upon her rapists, who were never prosecuted), and had been sexually abused by her uncle from the age of 4, escaping from him only at 18 by becoming a porn actress... she also made several suicde attempts before Baise-Moi...

Karen, by contrast, was a university graduate, who had gone into porn alongside her then husband to pay off student debts, only for her marriage with him to break down (he left the industry, she didn't). At the time of her suicide, she was at the height of her career (Baise-Moi had made her a star after all), she had the choice of doing "mainstream" work and didn't have to work in porn again, and was promoting herself as a pop singer.

Raffaela's part in the film was to some extent true to her real-life - maybe Karen's was as well?

Interestingly, and going off at a slight tangent, both women were mixed-race women of Arab immigrant origin (Raffaela is from a Muslim Algerian background and Karen was Jewish Moroccan). Raffaela is supposed to have said that incest and abuse was endemic in such families (and, soming from an Arab background myself, I can see how it might happen. I don't know anyone from such a background who has been abused, but I can see how it could happen).

Raffaela was quite vocal about what had happened to her as a child, while Karen never said anything about the subject. Was this because there was nothing to tell, or was she just more reticent? It took Raffaela years for her to tell her story, although after she went public about it she commented that, however she dealt with what happened to her, she would never take her own life as "that would be too easy". Maybe if Karen had suffered similar things in her life that she never spoke about, that might explain why she took what Raffaela regaded as the easy option? If so, then that makes her suicide all the more tragic.

[–] kimberlymhn 17 years ago

Truly tragic. I was devastated when I heard of her death.

[–] stendhal53 18 years ago

Oh and, btw, if sex is the second best thing in life, what is the first? ;)

[–] saido 18 years ago

The first best thing in life is.......... of course love...

when it leads to sex ;=)

[–] kimberlymhn 17 years ago

What a perceptive viewpoint, and coming from a male perspective too.
It seems your 'academic' friend is still locked in that outdated notion that any display of the female form or sexuality is exploitation and damaging. Baise Moi is a movie made by women with a strong feminist message.

[–] tankgirl-6 16 years ago

What's the message of Baise Moi? That it's ok to hurt and kill people who haven't done you any wrong? What a load of crap. This film is anti-feminist if anything, as well as nihilistic and amoral. And it was cheap-looking and lacked atmosphere.

[–] saido 16 years ago

Tankgirl, I think it is rather a shock and not a message! It is the shock that we get from two women crossing the border of another field dominated by men (this kind of violence) A sort of an extreme idea in lined with the idea of Thelma and Louis. They have been suffering from the violation of men in their lives and revolted to this in a crazy way. I did not get the idea, or message that it is ok to hurt or kill innocent people. The two women do not present us (sane people) but their characters going crazy. (seen The Falling Down?)

Is it feminist or anti-feminist is a question can only be answered in prospective to your perception of the definition of feminism.

For some, as it tackles and rejects the domination of men in many aspects of life (including violence in this case) it is enough to qualify it as feminist. For others that is not enough.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] ferrox71 16 years ago

Tylerdanielblack,
you didn't answer the question that is the topic of this thread !.....

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ferrox71 16 years ago

Well, whats the point of starting a conversation on a topic then going off on some strange rant of an obtuse tangerine just coz you want to get an opinion off of your chest ? Why not start your own thread ?

[–] daudleikr 16 years ago

I'm 22, female, a feminist (raised by a feminist as well), and I gave this movie an 8. Had it been technically/artistically better, I would have rated it higher.

I LOVED this movie, I absolutely 100% loved it.
Btw, I also love porn and my favorite movie in the entire world is A Clockwork Orange (because of the message as well as the brilliant directing). But that's not why I loved it.

People are missing the whole point of this movie. It's like Salo all over again. "OMGZ POO!" "it's a political commentary to the fascism in Italy" "BUT THERE'S POO" "it actually looks more like chocolate fudge imo" "BUT! POOO!" "political commentary" etc.

I'd be more concerned about the people who can't see past the violence and sex, and actually soak up the message. The violence and sex is the way Virginie Despentes decided to do it; it's supposed to be shocking, it's supposed to hit you like a sledge hammer, and it's NOT supposed to be pleasant or entertaining.

People like me, us desensitized people (the ones who watch gore and all sorts of disgusting things), we don't focus on the violence or the sex in movies like these. Because we're desensitized and we can actually understand the movie instead of letting our own emotions getting in the way.
But, we're also the ones who watch violence for amusement - shouldn't we be the ones reacting to this movie? The only thing I react on, are the people who go "OH THE VIOLENCE! THE SEX! THE RAEP! OH THE HUMANITY!!". If those are the only things you can focus on in such a brilliant movie.. that's reason for concern.
Same with Salo, ACO, Caligola, Irreversible - and if I stretch it: Life of Brian.

Oh Life of Brian. You were supposed to be a commentary to how people follow ideologies blindly like sheep, but people thought you were blasphemous (even though you didn't portray Jesus or make fun of him or christianity) - so you got banned.

History repeating. I'm STUNNED that this movie has such a low rating. I really hope that that won't turn people off from watching it. This movie is one of my all-time favorites.

And just to point out:
No it's not about sex
No it's not about violence
No it's not about going on a rampant killing spree
No it's not about hating men
No it's not a porn movie
No it's not meant to be entertaining
No it's not meant to me pleasant
No it's not meant to be Hollywood

It's meant to make you think. And YES it IS about feminism.
If I'm gonna have to spoon feed this to you:
The movie is supposed to make us question female gender roles and social norms, especially in movies. ALL she did was REVERSE the gender roles.
I'll repeat that:
ALL SHE DID WAS REVERSE THE GENDER ROLES.

Picture this; if two MEN were starring in this movie - would that be just as bad? No. Because that's acceptable male behavior in movies; in fact - men are frequently cast to play psychopaths, murderers, stalkers, rapists, abusers, having lots of sex etc.

If that doesn't make you think, I don't know what will.

In addition, she showed THE TRUTH. She showed how women will engage in self destructive and downright sadistic behavior, only because they hate themselves.
And this is not what anyone wants to see. "Daddy raped me so now I'm gonna kill every man I see", that's reality - but we have our blindfolds on because a woman is supposed to be the caretaker. And all those women who DO commit violent acts and self destruct, oh those are too crazy to even be regarded as women.
There was a serial killer in the 70s/80s, female and... a pensioner. She killed everybody who stayed at her house (she offered shelter for alcoholics) coldblooded and buried them in her back yard. Because she hated alcoholics, because of childhood trauma.
That can happen to anyone. You, me, our daughters - anyone.
But for some reason, when a woman commits a violent act - it's shocking. MORE shocking than when a man commits a violent act. They're BOTH crazy, regardless of gender - they're crazy and messed up and that's why they kill people. Craziness knows no gender!

People are comparing this movie to Thelma & Louise - don't do that. Thelma & Louise never wanted to kill anyone, they never wanted to hurt anyone. They went on a female empowerment road trip, nothing more.
They did NOT question gender roles. The fact that they hesitated to pull the trigger only confirms that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those neo-feminists, I do not hate men (I LOVE men!), and I'm not against these traditional gender roles (i actually want to be a house wife some day) - but I enjoy this movie because of the message.

Most women dislike this movie because of the violence and sex, because for a lot of women - those two things make us feel uneasy.

Most men dislike this movie because it makes them view women differently. It forces them to view the TRUTH - that women are fully capable of doing all those things coldblooded and with a cool head. That must be an unpleasant thing to see; but us women have been shown the bad side of men for years and years. It's not a man/woman thing, it's humans in general; but we're only shown men behaving in this way.

Neo-feminists dislike this movie because they focus on the sex, and they confuse this with porn. Neo-feminists know nothing about porn, EVERYTHING is degrading to them. And then they mix in Karen Bach's suicide. Oh she was sexually abused when she was younger, OF COURSE she was a porn actress, OF COURSE she killed herself! None of you will ever know WHY she killed herself, her friends might know though. The note she left said "Too painful" - five years after this movie had been released.
My personal opinion, is that the WHOLE world was judging her, the WHOLE world saw her as nothing more than a porn star, the WHOLE world was picking at her old wounds - OF COURSE she killed herself. Imagine being in her shoes.
However previously, she had said that she would never take her own life because of the abuse, as "that would be too easy". Y'all can blame yourself.
http://www.karen-lancaume.com/

Feminists like this movie because we understand the message, and we don't think that porn is degrading (we enjoy it!), so we don't force ourselves into looking the other way just because something might be unpleasant to watch. Reality IS unpleasant.

"It sounds like the ultimate feminist flick, and in many ways it is. Society has always dictated that the roles acted out by these women are patriarchal ones honed by men and usually directed at women. Despentes astutely abstains from condemning the women directly except through news reports about their killing spree. This is definitely not the kind of 'Thelma and Louise' fantasy revenge or 'girls-get-their-own-back film we have seen before. It's about women who fight back against poverty, gender, rape and violence by re-routing a lifetime of aggression directed at them back at society.

It's difficult to say who will like the film; as it will either divide audiences on gender, content or both. Women will probably like it, depending on how much the violence affects them, men may be offended by the senseless brutality towards male characters - but the porn scenes will help to take their minds off that. A harrowing, adrenalin-fuelled stab to the chest, it's a stunning film you won't forget in a hurry, however you view the role of cinema."

Read this as well:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2002/apr/14/filmcensorship.features
http://www.einsiders.com/reviews/videorisks/baisemoi.php

[–] saido 16 years ago

Hi daudleikr,

Thanks a lot for such a thoughtful post. It feels good that even we both have so much differences (such as cultural background, gender, education, even age) but we have so much in common to have almost the same attitude, vision and line of thinking regarding such a controversial issue like this movie.

It is just a perfect example of how much humans can have in common regardless of differences as race, religion, gender, age, cultural,... or what ever.

Thanks again, I will go read your post once more, this time just for the sake of enjoying it.

[–] daudleikr 16 years ago

Hey Saido

Thanks a lot. ;) It's good to know that there are people out there who were able to grasp the message.
What I find concerning is that people are reacting -because- of the sex and violence; and that's EXACTLY what Despentes wanted to accomplish. The problem is that people don't stop to think WHY they're reacting; which is what Despentes hoped that people would do.

And yes, it's a perfect example of how humans can act in the same way, regardless of gender/race/cultural background/religion etc. Craziness, killing sprees and self-loathing happens everywhere to everyone. But we prefer to put our fingers in our ears and go "la la la I can't hear you".

It's a real shame that so many people didn't get this movie, I have so much respect for Despentes for being so ballsy and taking a real chance by deliberately shocking the audience so much that they'd feel queasy. But hey, so did Kubrick with ACO. Hopefully in some years (perhaps 20-30 like with the other movies I listed), people will be able to open their eyes and watch this movie without judging it because of the explicitness.

[–] sunrise_22 14 years ago

Saido and Daudleikr, thanks for your posts.

I think a lot of men didn't get this movie because 1) they expected a porn-like flick, with a lot of female nudity + some gory "SAW-like" violence, AND/OR 2) they're stuck-up bigots who're scared to see any male full frontal on TV of any kind (unless it's a tiny one or on some old fatso, aka in their old-school fav porno-flicks or "Hangover" type comedy). Then there are also some women here, who're well-matched to those men, raised to think that any female sexuality (except for missionary position under *her* man) AND male nudity is evil.

[–] enlil01 13 years ago

I didnt find this movie offensive at all, the sex and the violence weren't that shocking in my pov (ofc every person is different) but i didnt think the movie is that great. The story was really bad, things happened without a reason... When she meets with that guy in the hotel and he is shot outside, when the two girls meet in the subway... It was just stupid. And i don't think this is a movie for feminists, I am a feminist myself and i don't think this shows women in a positive light at all. Just because they can kill and *beep* as a man? But ofc this is just my opinion.

Don't dream it: be it!

[–] sunrise_22 13 years ago

1) what's the relationship between "feminism" and "showing women in positive light"? There is none, IMO, at least not in this context.
2) who said that this movie is "feminist"? certainly, it wasn't me. Perhaps, you meant to reply to some other person.
3) good for you re: liking or disliking something in the movie, but how is that related to my post? I'm sure hundreds viewers disliked it for the reasons I mentioned. I guess you wanted to point out some dislike this movie for other reasons? yeah, but most disliked it for the reasons I mentioned, certainly judging based on many IMDB negative comments on this movie.
4) you seem to dislike the movie because it does NOT show women in positive light (it seems to be not the only one but one of your reasons). I find such attitude quite limiting, but whatever works for you.
5) can you send me the name of ANY non-porn movie with as much male nudity yet something you liked? (i.e., good enough story for you, perhaps women shown "in positive light")? I'd like to watch such movie. The main point of my post: there are VERY FEW movies that dared to show as much as this one. But tons of non-porn (and porn) movies with female-only nudity. Regardless how deep (or not) the storyline is, "beggars cannot be choosers" - too few movies like this one are made, and I'm taking what I can.

[–] enlil01 13 years ago

I'm so sorry i didnt mean to reply directly to you but to the general thread, i just read all the posts and you were the last person replying.

I didnt dislike the movie because it showed woman in a negative light or because of the nudity or sex or violence, i didnt like it because the sex and the violence were gratuitous and the script was really poor in my opinion. They way the 2 girls met for example seemed really fake.

I just don't think this is a feminist movie, is just a movie that aims to be shocking and if it wasn't for the fairly entertaining sex and violence scenes, it was doomed to be forgotten.

Sry english is not my main language so sometimes its hard to make the exact point i want to =P

Don't dream it: be it!

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[–] zachanscom 13 years ago

because self proclaimed "mature women" are in fact naive and stupid, in the broadest sense, of course.

you're the kind of person that can watch a baby get raped on film and call it art because you're easily impressed and people consistently tell you what to think.