MovieChat Forums > Six Feet Under (2001) Discussion > Do you think Nate grew at all?

Do you think Nate grew at all?

posted 9 years ago by NinetyPercentGravity
26 replies | jump to latest

I recently finished watching this incredible show, it's probably one of my all-time favorites now, and I just think it's extremely interesting that essentially every major character grew significantly over the course of the show and made great strides towards becoming a more well-rounded and whole person, aside from our main character.

David obviously came such a long way from his beginnings as closed off and insecure to being an extremely honest and genuine and confident person at the end, Ruth's progression was incredible and she largely grew in the same way that David did. We got to watch Claire go through so much and go through so many different stages, some good and some bad, but in the end she too emerged as such a complete and secure woman with so many options for her life.

Brenda's growth was huge, she began so flighty and manic and afraid of commitment and afraid of letting somebody truly get to know her, and by the shows end she had toned herself down so much and had gotten the relatively stable life that she always wanted and really became so beautiful to watch as her confidence grew and she started to love herself more. I could get into how characters like Keith or Rico or George grew but they were less significant.

Anyway, for all of that growth, none of that was spread to our tragic Nate Fisher. He began the show afraid of commitment and afraid of being tied down, extremely unreliable, and that's how he ended the show. The Nate that we met in the first episode left home when he was young, had that man-child side of his personality like he still wasn't completely ready to grow up and settle down. And absolutely nothing changed by the time we got to the finale. He's constantly jogging and running, which is a great symbolism for the way he treats his life, he's even wearing the same jogging outfit he wore in the pilot, in Everyone's Waiting,

Nate can never stay in one place for too long, always scared that he's missing out on something better. He is afraid of the concept of death and the obvious restrictions that it comes with, and as result leaves home and seems to be living some type of flighty lifestyle. He originally has his relationship with Brenda, and although Brenda was equally responsible for the relationship's failure, Nate clearly was dissatisfied with the relationship. Then he has Lisa and get's bored of her and starts yearning for freedom. And then Brenda again, he runs into Maggie's arms despite the fact that Nate would surely continue his pattern with Maggie if they ever had a serious relationship. He's running away in his final dream too, heading out towards the ocean trying to escape from the shore, even in his final moments the show is trying to show Nate's inherent desire for singularity and freedom.

Nate tried to change and tried to convince himself that he could be happy playing the part of the dutiful and amicable husband and father, he tried that with both Brenda and Lisa, and he failed miserably both times, in almost identical ways. He had so many unrealistic ideas in his head of how he was supposed to behave and how people wanted him to act, that he let it get to him and ultimately drive him away from the people he was supposed to love more than anything. His constant search for a higher-purpose consistently proves to be his downfall, it's no coincidence that Nate has his AVM attack almost immediately after his affair with Maggie, he is being punished for his behavior.

This show really is incredible and so poignant and intelligent and I just think that the decision for character growth to be so prevalent in every single major character aside from the main character, it's just such an interesting choice on the part of the writers and Alan Ball.

[–] faded624 9 years ago

Yeah, you're more or less right--I'm rewatching it again now, so I'm going to keep an eye on things in that regard. But, it's interesting that the choice was to have Nate remain stagnant and he was the one who died--I think there's some weight to that. He was so afraid of change, of death, of responsibility, and he ended up getting his life cut short.

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[–] Final_Hitokiri 9 years ago

Peter Krause exels at playing memorable characters who grow very little during their 5+ season runs.

[–] fanatic21 9 years ago

Yeah, recently finished and was thinking the same thing.

Nate and Brenda finally are in the relationship that they've both wanted. But Nate is being difficult and blowing everything out of proportion, calling Mya "his" child, saying he'll "give" Brenda "her" baby. They have ONE big disagreement, and Nate acts miserable and like it's the end of the world.

It's evident how much Brenda has grown during this; despite how difficult Nate is being, she supports him, accepts his differing viewpoints, and tried to make it work, even at the very end when Nate tells her he cheated AGAIN.

But Nate, it's evident he hasn't grown. He has some sort of fairy take marriage in his head, where a couple is supposed to have sex all the time and agree on everything, and is miserable when their marriage isn't perfect. Then Maggie comes along, and he has this revelation that he should be 100% happy all the time, and that nice peaceful Quaker Maggie can give him the perfect relationship, and ends his relationship with Brenda.

I related to Nate throughout the shows run, even when he was a jackass and was irrational and couldn't make any decisions. But in season 5, I was just angry with Nate that he hadn't learned the lesson that had been hammered into his head for the past 4 seasons. And it made me really sad for Brenda.

[–] Tess22 9 years ago

Sadly for the character, no, Nate didn't grow as a person.

He had so many unrealistic ideas in his head of how he was supposed to behave and how people wanted him to act, that he let it get to him and ultimately drive him away from the people he was supposed to love more than anything. His constant search for a higher-purpose consistently proves to be his downfall

I completely agree with this. Nate tries to be better, but always falls back on bad patterns because he's trying to be they type of good person that he's expected to be. The really sad thing is that he had the potential to be a much better man if he had done it on his own terms.

This contrasts with the growth of all the other characters, who all grow as they become more honest and understanding about who they really are, rather than what is expected of them. Ruth and David both become people they were never 'supposed' to be - Ruth thought she was supposed to be a meek housewife but embraced her strength, independence and sexuality. David thought he was supposed to be an upstanding member of the community, always conventional, reserved and definitely straight, but found he was a stronger and better man when he was honest and open about his lifestyle, sexuality and emotions.

Claire actually rejects more than one idea of what she's expected to be. First she rejects the idea of the middle-class girl who goes to college, gets a 'nice' job and gets married, then she rejects the idea of living an entirely unconventional artistic life. She finds that her real self falls sort of in the middle of the two, and also sort of neither. Similarly, Brenda was expected from a young age to be extremely messed up and live a disjointed, unconventional life. This became a self-fulfilling prophecy. However, she pulled herself out of it, becoming a loving mother and successful academic (I think this is stated somewhere, though I can't remember where).

This show really is incredible and so poignant and intelligent and I just think that the decision for character growth to be so prevalent in every single major character aside from the main character, it's just such an interesting choice on the part of the writers and Alan Ball.

Firstly, I'm afraid I don't see Nate as the main character. His return coincides with the start of the story and he connects Brenda to the others, but it's nevertheless very much an ensemble show.

In my opinion, it was both a brave and an excellent choice for the programme to have one character who didn't grow as person purely because that's true to life. It was particularly brave to do this with Nate because we saw his life get cut off early. I disagree with you that this was a 'punishment' for his affair with Maggie but the timing was very deliberate. People like Nate tend to think they will always have another chance to get things right in the future, a chance to make amends with people you love or try again with something new, but realistically this doesn't happen. Given more time, Nate would have tried to sort things out with Brenda and leave behind more positive memories, but death has inconvenient timing and doesn't usually wait for all loose ends to be neatly tied up. In Nate's case it came just as he had well and truly screwed up.

You don’t have to be angry to have an opinion worth hearing.

[–] soulwaves2000 9 years ago

You lost me at closed off and insecure. He always was this complete extrovert, a beaming leo with a loud mouth and a love for his own voice. He could not wait to jump at the first opportunity to whinge, complain, shout, accuse, belittle, etc...etc...

There we were, minding our own business, when kids started killing themselves all over my property.

[–] NinetyPercentGravity 9 years ago

You lost me at closed off and insecure. He always was this complete extrovert, a beaming leo with a loud mouth and a love for his own voice. He could not wait to jump at the first opportunity to whinge, complain, shout, accuse, belittle, etc...etc...

Ahhh and the reason for that might be because I said David began as "closed off and insecure" haha.

[–] soulwaves2000 9 years ago

ya

There we were, minding our own business, when kids started killing themselves all over my property.

[–] SirPsychoSexy91 9 years ago

You just wrote down a lot of my thoughts exactly. Nate did not grow as a person, rrepeating the same behaviour and making the same mistakes over and over. When he cheated (or was about to cheat, I'm not sure) on Lisa with Brenda, Lisa was the one who died. When he later cheated on Brenda with Maggie, he was the one to go. It's like fate gave him a second chance and decided it was game over when he blew it again. (Yes, I know it's fictional and it's not actually fate, but writing. I'm not a crazy person.)

To me, it's good that there's an exception to the rule and that there's someone who doesn't really change their ways. Plenty of people I know (some of whom are family, actually) stay malcontent, unreliable, even petty or hateful until the day they die. I think it's much more true to life this way.

It actually scares me how much I can relate to Nate at this point in my life. I'm 23 and have had plenty of flings, sometimes more than one at a time, but never a serious relationship. I'm going to a different continent to study (and possibly work) in six months. I really identify with his restlessness and his fear of commitment. I just hope that unlike him, I can manage to break the vicious circle.

[–] FilmAlicia 9 years ago

Spoilers ahead:

I'm about the watch the series finale, but I definitely DO think Nate grew throughout the series, I just don't think he ever "arrived" and since he died so young, he never had the opportunity to complete his journey.

I saw Nate as, essentially, a simple, loving person, with emotional intelligence as opposed to as a deep thinker. For instance, in the episode in which he worked at the "Doggy Daycare," he could relate very well to the dogs, because of their simplicity. In the same way, Maggie was a less complex person than Brenda or Lisa, and I think that was one of the things that drew Nate to her.

Lisa was a perfectionist, and I felt that Nate's character was "flattened out" when he was with her, and trying to live up to her expectations. And Brenda seemed to be permanently dissatisfied, so that she had to constantly second guess, overanalyze, and question every interaction.

The same qualities that made Nate so good with the grieving clients of Fisher and Sons made him a loving person who just wanted things in his life to be simple and direct. The question may be why he kept getting into relationships with women who weren't right for him, like Brenda, and Lisa. Maybe he just wanted to be happy, and kept trying, and when he finally did achieve happiness, with Maggie, he died.

[–] njohnson-05470 9 years ago

He did not achieve happiness with Maggie. He had an awkward affair with her. Both of them were uncomfortable about it afterwards, and then Nate went narm.

After he recovered, Nate gave up. He was tired of fighting and just gave up.

[–] FilmAlicia 9 years ago

I'm not saying that Nate and Maggie had any future together, or that there was anything special between them. He and Maggie were happy for one night, and he was happy and not regretful about what they had done the next day after he came out of surgery.

I don't think Nate died because he slept with Maggie, or because he "just gave up." He died due to a bleed in his brain. Perhaps he died because he didn't monitor his medical condition carefully enough after he had brain surgery a few years before.

You can argue that Nate didn't grow, and some people believe that no one ever really changes, but people keep trying anyway, and I think Nate always kept trying. He did say he was tired of fighting with Brenda, but that may be because he sensed, as people often do, that he was close to death.

I'm still trying to puzzle out why David was a "stoner" in Nate's final dream. It is never explained in the show, that I can see. I think it had something to do with David "loosening up" in time.

[–] NinetyPercentGravity 9 years ago

I don't think Nate died because he slept with Maggie, or because he "just gave up." He died due to a bleed in his brain. Perhaps he died because he didn't monitor his medical condition carefully enough after he had brain surgery a few years before.

Clearly every single person on this board understands that yes, physiologically, Nate died as a result of a brain hemorrhage and not because he decided to get cozy with another woman.

When I wrote the OP and stated that I saw Nate's death as a punishment for his actions, I was not implying that Nate's body gave out on him at that moment because he decided to have sex with Maggie, I was suggesting that the writers decided to kill Nate at that time as a sort of cosmic fate for being so damaging and irresponsible with regards to his new wife and family.

Nate had a chance at happiness with Lisa and although it was not his fault that Hoyt (most likely) did what he did to Lisa, Nate certainly wasn't about to win any awards for his behavior in that relationship. He was distant and avoidant of his new wife and despite his best efforts to be a good husband, it was clear that he didn't want to be with her. It's even brought up in the show that Nate wanted an out and wanted to get out of that marriage and situation with Lisa, he just didn't want it to happen the way it did.

But Nate still wanted to be better and did want to be a good husband regardless of how well he actually showed that, so he was given another chance with Brenda, a character that had actually displayed a significant and noticeable effort to be a good wife and mother to Maya. So Nate is awarded this redo, a second chance at happiness, another opportunity to actually be invested and present as opposed to looking 10 steps ahead of him at whatever better option may be out there. And he blows it, and he is punished for it.

[–] FilmAlicia 9 years ago

I think there might be a simpler explanation for why the writers decided to kill Nate. Because, everybody dies.

Perhaps Nate's character dies to show how all of the characters in a series centered around a funeral parlor have grown and changed since Nathaniel's death in the pilot episode.

If you look at what the series creator says about Nate, he calls him "the most spiritual character in the series," which does not suggest that Nate dies as a punishment for his lack of growth, or for "blowing it" with his new family. If you look at the words the writers have George say at Nate's funeral, he says that "Nate was an idealist."

The character who has the most reason to believe Nate didn't grow would arguably be Brenda, but she is able to move on with her life and stop fearing that something will happen to Willa after she has a healing dream about Nate, which comes after she has a healing conversation with Ruth.

If you look at the impact that Nate's death has on all the major characters, David is finally able to overcome his own fear of death and be happy, Brenda is able to accept help from Ruth, and Nate's "ghost" urges Claire not to be afraid to start her new life in New York. Ruth is able to move on as much as it is possible for a mother who lost a son when she talks to Maggie and hears that Nate was happy on the last night before his death.

In terms of the idea that Nate dies because he blows it with Brenda, maybe Nate's purpose in Brenda's life was to help her grow, and to give her Willa and to give Maya a mother? When relationships don't work, sometimes its nobody's fault, or it's everybody's fault. Or, it just wasn't meant to be.

[–] FilmAlicia 9 years ago

Also, if you go over to the "philosophical quotes" thread, many of the best ones from the series came from Nate.

[–] NinetyPercentGravity 9 years ago

I think that in a show as fine-tuned and masterfully made as Six Feet Under, killing a main character for the sole and single reason of "everybody dies," isn't necessarily in the cards. I agree that Nate's death adds to the theme that death is all-encompassing, and I would agree that Nate's death was used as a way to come full circle from Nathaniel's death, but neither of those are reasons to explain why the writers happened to kill Nate one scene after he decided to have sex with Maggie.

If anything, him being the "most spiritual character in the series," a character that believed in karma and cosmic energy, would support the idea that him dying at the peculiar time that he did was actually him getting his comeuppance. I think this show is too smart and the writers were too intelligent to just say:

"Hey what scene were you thinking we should kill Nate in?
I don't know, I was thinking after that adultery scene but it doesn't really matter.
Okay sounds good to me!"

Everything on this show was done for a reason, including the decision to kill Nate when they did. The "everybody dies" argument doesn't give them enough credit, if that was their sole motivation for why they wanted Nate to die, they could have done it at home in his bed or killed him during an intake or some other insignificant moment in his life.

I understand that his death does provide an inciting incident in growth in the other characters, I'm not arguing about that, my point is merely in the time in which they decided to kill Nate, not why they actually did it from a plot perspective. His death speaks to the idea that life is too short and that you must take every opportunity to live it.

He was given many chances to live a full life, he squandered several of them, he left the earth at a very sudden and abrupt place in his development, never being given the opportunity to apologize or make it work with Brenda, never having the opportunity to see his daughter be born of his sister leave home, etc,. He spent his entire life trying to be the best version of himself and trying to be this perfect human being, and then 10 minutes after he abandons that and cheats on his pregnant wife, he's on his way to the ER. I really don't think it's a coincidence.

[–] FilmAlicia 9 years ago

Here's what Alan Ball says about Nate:

http://movieweb.com/six-feet-under-creator-alan-ball-talks-about-the-end-of-the-hbo-series/

I can't cut and paste from the article, but the gist is that Ball says he loves the character, thinks there is a lot of "Hamlet" in him, and thinks he is a heroic character.