MovieChat Forums > The Believer (2001) Discussion > Too much religion can drive anyone crazy...

Too much religion can drive anyone crazy...


As the main character CLEARLY was driven insane on account of trying to make sense of what is by definition nonsensical (religion).

Especially Jewish laws. At least what little I know of them, would surely drive ME insane just trying to follow all of them, never mind making sense of them (I realized a long time ago that MOST religious laws/rituals are truly meant to allow the religious leaders to CONTROL their followers, so the more ritualistic/legalistic a faith is the more it's meant to control you, not help you).

I mean, who in his right mind wouldn't question what Daniel questions here? Yet at least in the film he never gets a decent answer by anyone. So is it that much of a stretch to see him wrapping his mind around his doubts until he goes off the deep end?

Religion is only good if it IMPROVES your life, not if it drives you insane and fills your heart with hatred...

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"Religion is only good if it IMPROVES your life, not if it drives you insane and fills your heart with hatred..."

You could say the same about anything.

Incidentally, despite the occasional Jonestown and Heaven's Gate, religious people tend to be much less likely to commit suicide. They're also just as likely to be found feeding homeless people as hate preaching.

---
It's not "sci-fi", it's SF!

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[deleted]

The movie, sweetcheeks.

Had you followed it instead of drooling over Gosling you may get it...

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[deleted]

Who's talking about Hitler?

The movie is about Gosling's character and his inner turmoil, not Hitler's.

He CLEARLY was not taking well his Jewish indoctrination (too many uncomfortable/inappropriate questions for the rabbi to handle). Doesn't mean others will spin out of control like him.

However there's only so much nonsense and absurd anyone can take. So it depends on how seriously you take it and how much you care to twist your mind into a pretzel to make sense of the obviously nonsensical parts. Guess Gosling's character went down that path.

Take me for example: I myself was raised Catholic, and I believe in God 100%. Yet I don't allow the Pope, or any priest for that matter, to dictate what I may or not do in my own bedroom (I bothered to look up the actual functions of the original post given to Peter by Jesus, they were quite simpler and different that those the Pope claims for himself today) if it conflicts with my reasoning. Not do I bother with making sense of biblical tales that in MY opinion simply can't be applied to today's audience and culture (they were written by people of those times for people of those times, and the writers were not exactly Aristotle kind of educated, they were farmers, goat herders and fishermen, can't expect them to know everything or be flawless. Remember the Bible is God-inspired, not God-written nor God-dictated).

Does that make me a bad Catholic? I couldn't care less, for I better be concerned with being a good person and not allow any religious dogma make me do bad things to others.

As I said, religion is supposed to IMPROVE our lives, not control them (a buddy of mine actually switched to Mormonism just to have a better shot at being accepted into the FBI, he got in and after a few years switched back since he grew tired of tithing and prudish Mormon rules).

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Where do you get the idea that religion is supposed to improve our lives? Read the story of Job. Or that of Abraham's sacrifice - the film did press a nice point about it, for even if the actual killing was averted, in his heart Abraham has already killed Isaac. Does killing your own son that you love just because God has commanded it constitute an improvement to your life?

This movie is about belief. And remember what Saint Augustine has written: Credo quia absurdum est. I believe because it is absurd.

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"Where do you get the idea that religion is supposed to improve our lives?"

How about common sense?
- If "god" in fact loves us, then his laws are meant to help us live better lives (short or long term)
- If he does not, then WTF should we care about his laws since they won't benefit us?

So I hedge my bets on God being on our side. If not, then it doesn't really matter what we do, does it?

"in his heart Abraham has already killed Isaac."

That's a MODERN interpretation. In those times child sacrifices were COMMON. Thus it really didn't matter all that much to Abraham since he already had another kid (Ismael) and since he had one this old, why not another one (God can always pull another miracle)? Plus for all we know this was Abraham testing God's promise of giving him a nation. Ever thought about that?

"Does killing your own son that you love just because God has commanded it constitute an improvement to your life?"

Depending on the payoff. Sure it wouldn't be an improvement for Issac, but remember Job (the new sons/daughters replaced the previous ones just fine).

"I believe because it is absurd."

That must be out of context, because at face value would advocate any/every/all absurdity in existence. And if it's accurate, so what? He ain't Jesus so he can be wrong (like Paul when giving his OPINION on how women should behave)

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People who hate their own religion are more dangerous then haters from other groups/race/religion/or whatever. This is my opinion.

Especially Jewish laws. At least what little I know of them,


Every single religion has laws that would be considered crazy these days.

Excuse me while I whip this out.

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"People who hate their own religion are more dangerous then haters from other groups/race/religion/or whatever. This is my opinion."

OK, do you have examples? If you could say for example that Hitler/Stalin were self-hating Jews/Christians, you would have a point.

"Every single religion has laws that would be considered crazy these days."

Question is which ones are relics not to be taken too seriously today, and which ones are expected to be followed to the letter to this day.

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I think you don't understand the point of Judaism. Whether reform, conservative, or Orthodox one of the biggest things in reform Judaism is that you gain as much knowledge from what you can, and rather then preaching, or trying to convert others -- you keep it to yourself. "Choice through knowledge". Different types of Judaism have different rules, and The Believer did a great job at trying to fit as much information without over doing it.

I recently had my car vandalized by people slashing tires and spray painting a swastika on it. I have always loved in the pacific northwest, so not really a LOT of hate, but it process hate is everywhere. My life has included people lighting my porch on fire, painting "Die *beep* on our house, and bricks through our windows, and mind you it was for menorah decals on my windows. I just don't understand hatred. This movie was absolutely amazing though.

<3 Rand

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"you gain as much knowledge from what you can, and rather then preaching, or trying to convert others -- you keep it to yourself."

Sounds like IGMFY.

Nice morality. Think I'll stick with mine.

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I think what for lost in my explanation is that the whole -- as Jews who people can convert if they want to -- it's just a lot less about preaching, you find solice within yourself by educating yourself with as much knowledge as possible convened make an informed opinion on how you feel about religion or specifically within the confines of the Jewish religion. As with most religions there are the more conservative denominations and the less conservative denominations. Within Judaism as a reform Jew it's not about saying to people I got what I want so *beep* you. It's more like if people ask you questions about it then you answer honestly and you inform them. And it's kind of a two way street where when two different people from different religions talk about it on the Reform Jewish side it's like we're learning as much as we can from different religions, within our own religion, and all over the place there is some sort of knowledge that we can take in. it's just not as important to the reform Jew or to certain Reform Jews to try to convert the person sitting next to you what's more important is to listen to them, absorb their information, and then think about it. Which I would like to think of other religions would do the same you talk about something with someone you take something away with it and you think about it. I definitely never saw it personally as, I have what I want so I don't need anybody else and screw everybody else. If anything the Reform Jews I know and the Jews that I grew up with the extremely interested in sharing and learning about other things not confining themselves and telling other people well you're just wrong, and that's the end of it. I'd like to add again that Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism, and Orthodox Judaism have very different ways of dealing with the religion I can only speak for what I specifically dealt with and I can also speak for the other denominations through people I knew, though there isn't the largest demographic of Jews in the Pacific Northwest or up here where I live. unfortunately and a lot of my relatives were killed in the concentration camps specifically Dachau during World War 2 and there wasn't a lot of survivors and the survivors at this point have basically passed on. it's interesting cuz I had never heard of that acronym that you used above so I had to search urban dictionary for it (it kind of shows my aging as I am now turning 32). I think that every person no matter what religion or morality or set of ethics excetera comment if it makes them succeed and feel better about themselves but they should go for that as long as they're not hurting other people. Which is where extremism in religions comes in.

Mostly I just thought that the film did a very good job of showing what some parts of Judaism can really be confusing to everyone at first. There's so many things when taken literally through the Bible, the Talmud, the Torah, the Quran, are so extreme that obviously it doesn't see him natural today. & I think personally that it's about what you learn around you and then interpreting it in current times. So you take the basic thought of what those religious books say and interpret it into your life. I've always struggled with the idea of blind faith, and believe me I have heard so many times how can you be a Jew if you don't know about how you feel about blind faith? But I think it's a long learning process throughout the rest of your life.
I know I kind of went off there and wrote kind of a long post. but I hope I have some extra insight on what I said above, basically doing to some of the information I gave up above... but I've been pretty scattered brained (I've been really sick the last couple days blah!) So I'm also sorry if it's all over the place.
8-)

- Rand

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Wow, for a 2014 post that was a fast reply. Slow Friday night? Mine isn't looking up so far.

"the whole -- as Jews who people can convert if they want to -- it's just a lot less about preaching, you find solice within yourself by educating yourself with as much knowledge as possible convened make an informed opinion on how you feel about religion or specifically within the confines of the Jewish religion."

WTF does that have to do with the movie? Conversion in either direction was never even hinted at. Not in the movie, nor in real life (the loser this is based on).

"unfortunately and a lot of my relatives were killed in the concentration camps specifically Dachau during World War 2"

Really? Well I lost several too, but to the other side (the Soviet invasion of Lithuania). So you're in good company.

"the film did a very good job of showing what some parts of Judaism can really be confusing to everyone at first."

Really?

Well I'm a Catholic (not the Mel Gibson kind), and the movie's display of Jewish thought and doubt seemed (what's the right word) puerile, superficial and stereotypical at best.

Like a fundie evangelical's idea of what ideas/concepts Jews may struggle with (as if Jewish thought and Judaism itself had frozen in time since Jesus and hadn't kept growing and developing for another 2,000 years).

Can you honestly say that of all the recent/modern/relevant themes (like say the Holocaust, antisemitism, Israel, secularism, etc) a Jew may struggle with, the binding of Issac and Abraham's alleged state of mind (from a time where child sacrifice was common for starters) are at the top?

If you read your Bible/Torah/Quran long enough, eventually you'll:
- see whatever you want to see
- ask yourself how many angels can dance at the head of a pin
- find yourself wondering WTF are you even thinking about
- Start having vision of Jesus or the virgin Mary in a grill chesse sandwich or your toilet.

I'll state it again: religion is supposed to improve your life, not control it (unless you're a ruler, then you do want religion to control your subjects so you can then control them better). If you're losing sleep over religious topics, you have too much time on your hands and not enough real problems.

A buddy of mine switched to some cult just to get his hands on all the juicy female followers (it's a swingers cult if you get my drift), while he always shows up with a different 2 dollar whore pretending she's his current girl (he can't come empty-handed). He tells me he's cleaning up and I should consider it (he sure knows how to make religion work FOR him...)

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yes, you can see his descent into madness from when he was an outsider as a child. his non-acceptance of his peers, and the idiot "teaching" him in his classroom. He certainly felt like the black sheep. religion destroyed Him, not hating Jews, that was the progeny of the outcome.
"I have never seen a vision, nor learned a secret, that would damn or save my soul"!

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