MovieChat Forums > The Believer (2001) Discussion > Do skinheads like this film ?

Do skinheads like this film ?


I saw something very disturbing on the train today.

I guy jumps on he has a shaved head but aside from that doesnt show any sign of being a white supremesist/skinhead/nazi etc. I notice he is holding a tape copy of "the believer" which is a personal favourite of mine. At the next stop a group of Indian men (complete with turbans) hop on the train and stand in front of this guy. For the next two stops I watch closley as this guys facial expressions change to the point he looks as though he is going to explode. The Indian guys couldnt see him because he was standing behind them but this guy was snarling at them like he was a dog. They both got off at the same stop and for a second I thought this guy was gonna do something similar to what we saw in this film but in the end they walked off in other directions.

"The Believer" doesnt glamourize racism in my opinion and its left me wondering whether racists take some sort of inspiration out of this film liem ive heard they do out of "american history X" and "Romper Stomper"

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Depends what kind of skinhead they are... they're not all hard right Fascists. Some are just bovver boy types, some are Communist (red skins) or Anarchist, and some are gay skins.

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[deleted]

There was something I found very strange in this movie when confronted with what I thought I knew about that style of living... in my country usually only RASH use red shoe-laces and suspenders (is that what you call it? the thing that holds your trousers?). hammerskins traditionally wear white, black or blue and have extreme-right wing political ideas but in this movie Daniel wears red, has nazi feelings (kind of) and doesn´t seem as activist as I thought they 'had to' be.

Perhaps you can explain that to me... was that a director's error or hammerskins really wear red accessories (obviously associated with communism and socialist powers)?

youngsters dont make mistakes, they try new things n besides, brains r overrated!

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Yeah, I found that strange as well. Different colours means different things in different places, though. Red laces sometimes mean that the wearer has drawn blood or killed someone but mostly it's associated with RASH.

Ive never seen a bonehead (that I've known of) with red laces.

On the other hand, I have communist friends who have worn white laces on their docs. Many SHARP's and trads do not care about the colours. The colour of the bracers are usually insignificant but it shifts from place to place.

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yah, i've seen many RASH wearing black and white shirts and all (cuz it's like normal stuff) but wearing red is not normal and I believe that them being anti-communist would never want to be mistaken with one of them... weird thing in the movie...lol

youngsters dont make mistakes, they try new things n besides, brains r overrated!

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[deleted]

Ex-traditional skinhead here. Before I became a skinhead I also thought that the color of laces & braces mattered, but it doesn't. It's just a fashion statement. You could never tell a skinheads political affilation based on the color alone. The easiest way to know was either by seeing what pins he had on his jacket or just by simply asking. Anyway to judge people by how they are dressed is generally a very idiotic thing to do.

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"I’m a skinhead and i’m not racist, i’m a skinhead who is against the new masculinity of today... what is metrosexuality, extreme sensitivity and unethical behaviour."

Why?

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Are you A "SHARP"??

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yeah because you know so much about them and know how they think.



Cleveland Browns, 1964 Nfl Champions

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Some of my friends that like American History X or the Believer has quite racists views(not skinheads by the way)and this is something completley strange to me.

They have chose to view them as I don't really know how to put it... as another reason to hate these different groups of people. I feel like they have completley missed the points of the movies.

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One would think that skinheads would like the movie if it spelled out overly simplistic ideas to them in a black & white fashion.

The problem is that most ignorant people rely on overly simplistic explanations because their attention span is very short. They need to rely on others' brain power. They are lazy. Lazy and stupid.

It's understandable that skinheads would rise out of any religious group because religion conditions people to think in black & white terms, it points out the enemy, names the enemy and tells you it is okay to go kill the enemy to free yourself. Corrupt religious leaders have enriched themselves by tricking followers into attacking other groups. Bibles were written to span three distinct eras throughout which groups will be attacked because they will be portrayed as the enemy. Bibles are like a company manual telling you what you can and can't wear and stating what you can be fired for and it's all for the benefit of the bottom line of the company not for the employees' financial benefit, but employees tend to believe that they will be promoted from within when in fact cheaper labor from Russia will be brought in to work without benefits but will make twice the amount of money that you make. The dioceses make a killing off of tax exempt money given to them by believers while the believers die combating people who are not real enemies. The real enemy of the believer is the liar who takes his money for offering him a social group of likeminded lazy ignorant people. People like to belong to social groups so that's what they are offered but by belonging they must believe lies, even lies told about other groups people who they must kill if they are to belong to the group. It's not unlike any typical urban gang, there's just much more gloss. Religion provide a fine sheen to the lies it sells in order to mask the poverty that's created by the wars promoted by the diocese. It's a business, the believers are the employees who pay to work for their church or synagogue, they work to believe what they are told, it's a job that they go to weekly.

The real enemy is the person who is so lazy that they believe authority figures even though the authority figure speaks in generalities and has no substance to what he says. People who can't recognize empty gloss from real facts are going to unite in a group to go attack the wrong people, every time they are presented with it as a mission. Religion thrived on ignorant people who could not read and had to have their bible read to them. The enemy is the self.

Do skinheads like this film? It depends on what the skinhead believes, what the person has read, what they know and how much they want to hurt others for any reason they are offered by the social group they choose to belong to. It depends on how independently they are able to think. I'm sure some hate women because they hate their own inferiority and want to mask it by believing women are horrible creatures and would not like this film unless it had some of that American History X flavor of pulling womens' hair and slapping them about. That would appeal to some skinheads who wouldn't like this film if it lacked it. There's probably something for everybody in this film, for every type of ignoramus believer who has never questioned authority.

I Get My News From Deek Jackson

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@ caffeinelake1 : Wow, this is really brilliant. I don't know who you are, but it's amazing how u perfectly summed what I think. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. No debate here, I agree with everything. On a daily basis, how do u deal with the majority (ignorant people)? lol

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It is very humble of you, princess_zadig to describe his writing as brilliant and then go on to point out that it sits nicely with your already made up opinions. And I humbly disagree with both of you, on the details, at least. Caffeinlake blames religion for the rising of hate due to black&white thinking, which he infers by noting a correlation there between. This is a classic abuse of the notion of correlation and is not hard to debunk just by noting, familiarly, that most movies only deal with the concepts good and bad. And I could go on.

Also I would like to point out that it is ridiculous to show anger towards people you feel are less intelligent then you and towards stupidity in general. It is after all very related to genes and they are thus not at fault. Enjoy your things and let them enjoy theirs.

Btw, I am an atheist.

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Ahhh, most people dont have this crap going through their head on a daily basis. You are both whack jobs.

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princess,

Perhaps what you recognize is the higher self, not my brilliance per se. That's why it sums up your thoughts.

On a daily basis, I deal with ignorance with a silent internal whimper but an external display of grace.

The other day an older women in the store actually shoved me. She'd been crowding me for some time. She was showing her daughter a scarf while crowding me. I was ready to let her pass by had she asked, but she decided to shove me into the food conveyor belt. There was no rush, but her limited mind told her that violating my personal space and my person was okay since she wanted to get past me to where he daughter stood. She shoved me so that I was very uncomfortably pinned against the conveyor belt, disgraced and a bit humiliated. The cashier gave me a look of apology and maybe pity. I later had to check my brand new purse that I received this past holiday for tares caused by her and checked the contents for broken items. In the recent past, someone broke a CD by leaning hard on my purse. I found a small puncture in my new purse but she hadn't broken the small headset I'd just put in it that day. In recent years, women in stores have charged at me when they feared their boyfriends would become attracted to me. One large woman charged at me after looking back over her shoulder at me, but I refused to be intimidated and stood my ground. It was like a game of chicken. She rushed at me then at the last second went around me. Once in Santa Monica a man deliberately came from across the street diagonally to cut me off as I walked, he did it so that I had to stop to avoid walking into him. Most men are respectful and don't violate women that way, but this man was extremely ignorant and extremely hostile. He was obsessed with getting my attention and invading my space. He might have wanted to feel "superior" to me since he believed himself to be inferior to me. I still remember the stress he caused by his hostility because I felt that he was a serious danger to me. He seemed to target me and singled me out from across the street. His ignorance comes from wasting his time attacking people who are carefree and going about their day. To me he was like a wild animal let loose in the city, a man from the jungle who'd found a suit to fool others into believing he was like them.

What it comes down to is that low IQ people don't respect the rights or space of other people. They have very poor impulse control. They have below average coping skills for dealing with people who they wish to not exist. They pick the wrong enemy and waste time fighting the wrong battle because they are misled. For my sense of self to be preserved I think first to have grace and show dignity. Be above it. Always be above it. History proves that ignorant people love to rip others apart and claim a god is on their side.

Then there are those looking for financial game who prey upon people going about their day by doing almost imperceptible hostile actions like the way a paparazzo will keep his hand in front of a celebrity's car to make himself injured.

I had a gorgeous neighbor who always made me laugh but whose education was entirely ruined by an abusive mother and absent father who worked in the movie industry and was always away on location. I still love him to death and even let him kiss me once. He never once uttered the word god and never harmed anyone. He was hit by a car while riding my bike and all I cared about was his safety. I never complained about the bike, he was worth it. The very wealthy woman who hit him and destroyed my bike was probably elated that he was fine too. I didn't waste time thanking a non-existent god for sparing his life. For some reason, I simply decided to show grace and never complained or mentioned the bike ever again. We actually laughed about how he survived unhurt when the bike was so mangled. Many years later asked me to have his child. Life is so much better when you "think outside the box" which is one of the greatest rewards in itself.

I realize I've been attacked from all sides: above below and from beside me. Many people want their lives to be made easier by taking what belongs to others and some don't want to feel deficient so they try to knock others down a notch or block others. There are those who don't have much self-discipline so they leech off of me to profit from my self-discipline. I used to be vilified for going to the gym too much by others who didn't want to appear to neglect their health. A male friend who wanted to be filthy rich made a comment that I was too muscular but tried to get me into bed after he divorced his plump wife. He wouldn't say, "I like your body better than hers." He never boosted my ego. He didn't succeed with me but eventually made a lot of money. His insults failed to give him what he wanted, a position of domination over me. He's now remarried but still tries to make excuses to see me. I ignore his requests because his tactic is rather self-serving and ruthless. He thought tearing me down spiritually would make me putty in his hands, he was wrong. His goal was always only to prove to himself and to his friends that he was better than me or could own me. From the other side, former friends have tried to seduce my past boyfriends by insulting me or insinuating that I acted improperly, or have successfully seduced my dates at parties while I was at the party or coworkers have arranged dates with men who I was dating then began to dress identically to me. That's what I call blocking. Worst of all though are those who've stolen my intellectual property, they've stolen years of my life in doing so. That is irrecoverable. The rest I can handle. Stolen intellectual work I cannot accept. That sort of lack of self-control invites nothing short of war. No one takes my body, it will always be mine despite shoving and insults, but steal my intellectual property and a person is begging, pleading for me to come after them so that I can hold a mirror up to them. I am more than happy to show them who they truly are. It is my Constitutional right to pursue happiness. I'm a happy warrior. Beware. I am not afraid.

All animals defend themselves. I proved many times through grade school that I refuse to engage in combat. I won't lower myself or harm my reputation by engaging in combat when intentionally provoked. But I will defend myself against acts of aggression, theft of my stock which I consider an act of war as it is an act meant to deprive me of strength and life and of my ability to properly care for myself in old age. I will defend myself against acts of war meant to impoverish and enslave me. I am an evolved animal that does not believe Earth is flat, that does not believe a holy spirit wants me to be like Job showing faith when hardship is intentionally foisted upon my back. I am an animal with an evolved brain that I use to improve my life and the life of those dear to me and society as a whole. I will not be weakened by individual leeches or leeches united who make me their host because their brains are inferior and they have no self-control nor self-discipline. Leeches will only make me stronger and smarter. They push me into hyper-awareness.

Bicycles can be replaced, not so for life.

My guess is that this film vilifies skinheads who themselves are victimized and have moved into hyper-awareness. Radicals are often fighting for their lives. They don't want to be hosts to leeches. Leeches want a free ride and attempt to dominate them. Skinheads refuse to be enslaved. There are some groups who pose as skinheads only to give skinheads a bad name. Are Bruce Willis and Howie Mandel skinheads or have they just gone bald? It's easy to look like one, but who is really inside? Bruce Willis portrayed a Jewish skinhead's father in "Alpha Dog." Does he relate? He might hate Anglos because he said he was in hiding during WW2 as a target of religious bigotry. He might try to vilify an Anglo skinhead in movies to give them a bad name or falsely claim an Anglo was a skinhead when he wasn't one as an act of vengeance against the Anglo race. Who knows. I'd never trust a movie to give me the whole story nor the big picture. We have to see each the big picture to save ourself, there's no god or Superman to do it for us. Ignorance is not bliss, it's confusion.

Get Your News From Deek Jackson

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[deleted]

caffeinelake1, I wouldn't necessarily blame all of your events on the intelligence of people in general...

Heh, from your mention of Santa Monica I take it that you, like myself, am a Los Angelino... and when it really comes down to it all the negative stuff you talk about: its LA.

Now, I will say, I'm not from here originally (a matter of fact, I'm pretty damned new here), I was raised in Kansas before the Navy swept me off and well... that part is pointless, anywho I was raised in a very religious area of the world (by two non-religious people). I am (and have been for as long as I can remember) a very fervent agnostic. Lets just say that the Christians in the area weren't exactly understanding... BUT even then people weren't directly impolite. A matter of fact, even though I wore my thoughts and beliefs like a badge of honor everywhere I traveled to, I found that most people were polite. I've lived in Chicago, Pensacola, Honolulu, and San Diego (beyond Kansas) and all of these places are wonderful. Friendly people, some not religious, some VERY religious but most falling in-between and yet in all of those places, always the same general politeness (a little less so in SD). There is a distance; an understanding that 'mine is mine' and 'yours is yours' is important in every day life.

This is not So in LA.

It seems that the people here are always rushing so quickly to... well whatever... that they don't take the time to acknowledge other people. Maybe its simply that there are SO many people that they can't acknowledge all of them (at times almost by necessity) and thus in turn ignore others around them. I'm sure New York has the same issue... its an effect of a mega-metropolis. WELL, that and there seems to be a lot of genuinely stupid people here.

Anywho, sorry to ramble, but once again, I'll reiterate: its not the world-- its merely LA. Oh, and I don't dislike LA... its just, heh, very rude at times. Love the abundance of art, music and creativity.

Oh and, sorry to do this, but you don't actually have a Constitutional right to "happiness"... the whole "pursuit of happiness" thing is in the Declaration of Independence (not the Constitution).

Good luck.
Peace.

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What a bunch of worthless babble. I have no idea whart you were trying to say, other than you think you have a good body, and women don't like you for it, and men just want to use you. The rest about the bicycle and the man wanted you to have his baby is dribble. Sounds to me like you are inflating yourself trying to sound intelligent.

I liked this movie because of the acting, and the internl conflict Gosling came across as real.

All sexism, and racism is bad. All humans have the capacity for good or evil. It is up to us to chose. That is why GOD gave us free will.

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To caffeinelake1, your post was written over a year ago, but if you can somehow read this, your post put tears in my eyes. It did affect me. I can relate especially when you talk about self-discipline and leeches who try to bring you down. I've learned a lot from your post, and I want to thank you for taking the time to write everything you said down.

When I came on this board I was not expecting to read something as enlightening as your post. I will try to remember what you've said about hyper-awareness so it can help me against negative people in the future. Thanks again

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dear caffeinlake1,

i would like to use this quote of yours in any of my upcoing books or screenplays.

His ignorance comes from wasting his time attacking people who are carefree and going about their day. To me he was like a wild animal let loose in the city, a man from the jungle who'd found a suit to fool others into believing he was like them.


please give permission by emailing me at johnnyamok at hotmail.com





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I like it and I'm a skinhead, but that's just because my hair got really thin...

Damn Father and his bad genes.

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[deleted]

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CaffeineLake
You're not a skinhead, so why the hell are you attempting to answer?


WP skins are probably not going to "like" it because they see it as semitic propaganda trying to weaken their cause.

The rest of us don't "like" it because it's yet another goddamn movie about about the subculture by people who know anything about it, focusing only on the most sensational aspects from a narrow slice of the political sphere that used to be played endlessly in the media because it got people's attention.


Truth be told, none of us, right, left or otherwise care very much about what anybody thinks. That goes for media, hollywood, or losers dumping out endless screeds of BS about everyone else's IQs on movie message boards. Putz.

Bye.

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No-one forced you to read her post. Don't be rude.

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Skinhead = working class.

Not all skinheads are racist.

A true skinhead believes in working and getting *beep* done. They are not saints though.

Skinheads can be good people or bad people, but the main thing is they work for what they have. If they do not work for what they have, then they are not a skinhead.

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you should look a little into the skinhead culture then you would realize that your comment is not only ignorant but also prejudiced... Not all skinheads are racist

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[deleted]

-Anti racist skinheads are a subculture that shouldn't exist anymore.-

no... RACIST Skinheads are the subculture that shouldnt exist anymore.

-When the average person sees anybody dressed in skinhead clothing they assume they're a racist.-

To "assume": To make an ASS out of U and ME. People who assume the negative based on looks are the same dumb people who hate blacks for being black. And if thats what you see you should really try to be more accepting of the way people look and not judge based on appearance. Sid Vicious used to wear the Swastika, not because he was racist, but to make a statement, that statement was to wear out the swastika until it had no meaning any more. They still use the swastika in buddhism today. It's people who get offended at things based on looks alone and disregard the meaning behind them that should be to blame.

I look a certain way but act in a completely different manner, yes i for one accept the fact that people are intimidated by my appearance, i accept the fact that i am given a hard time about the angry music i listen to, my 15 piercings in my face, my tattoos. I accept the fact that i have chosen to go through life the hard way. But the fact that i do these things and act in a professional and courteous manner ALWAYS, makes people think differently about people like me. And that is the point some of us out here are trying to make. That we're human and treated like a minority.

-let the subculture die so people will at least be able to identify who the racists are. -

Historic Correlation: lets put gold stars on the Jewish people so we could tell who they are too... :S

So youre telling me there are no Chinese people who are racist against whites? Or east-indian people racist against the the west-asians? but if there are they will most certainly be identified by their lack of hair. So by your ignorant comment im to assume any woman with breast cancer who suffered hair-loss should be immediatly assumed to be a racist.

I for one am a skinhead. I am a punk. And at times i don my rude-boy suit. I am not a racist. I believe in equality for everyone and live my life by socialist ethics of everyone helping everyone in order to move society forward together. I am guilty of generalization as I hold specific biases against "the rich" as i dont think the people with power do enough to help out those without.

-The skinhead subculture is almost identical to the punk subculture in terms of music (Oi, hardcore, ska, etc.) and clothing(Doc Martens, suspenders) anyways.-

...and??? Where were you going with this one? Youre saying people should stop shaving their heads because they like the same music and boots?? doesnt make sense... Well, i for one dont want to spend my hard earned money on a haircut, when it gets too long, i shave it off. Some people i know have lice due to their lifestyles and living situations and they need it shaved off... i've even heard of people who's hair just falls out...

AAAAANNNNNND... Winning :D

Ahh, the sweet sound of the ignore list.

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"Anti racist skinheads are a subculture that shouldn't exist anymore. When the average person sees anybody dressed in skinhead clothing they assume they're a racist. It doesn't matter if in the 1960's skinheads were heavily influenced by jamaican culture, Nazi skinheads have done too much for skinheads to ever be considered anything other than racists to most people. It's like wearing a totenkopf, swastika, or confederate flag. These things aren't always used to be racist, but you just shouldn't display them if you're anti racist because they intimidate jews and nonwhites.
The skinhead subculture is almost identical to the punk subculture in terms of music (Oi, hardcore, ska, etc.) and clothing(Doc Martens, suspenders) anyways.
So let the damn subculture die so people will at least be able to identify who the racists are."



Don't like em, don't be one.
See one, get out of his way.
And anyone intimidated by people's clothing, needs to grow a pair or see a shrink.

And FYI, since you seem pretty ill informed: 99% of people who call themselves "Punks" today are the absolute scum of the earth. Spoiled rich suburban commies and junkies who don't bathe and don't work. Now you know.

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I know a lot of punks, and im proud to say im punk at heart and in my morals and saying punks are the scum of the earth is far from the truth. I think there are far worse people doing more damage to the world than a bunch of drunk punks on welfare who wanna pan handle and make music and do a bit of drugs occaisionally.

-A majority of punks are spoiled rich suburban commies?-

you got the word "punk" confuzzled with the word "hipster" there bucko. I could show you the people i hang out with are far from Spoiled, Rich, and Suburban. I live in a house with 9 other people in one of the crappiest parts of town, and half of us are on welfare. We are not spoiled, we get by. If you dont know what youre talking about try not being so arrogant and judgemental next time.

I personally think rich people are the scum of the earth, as they actually have the ability to change the world and they dont, as the whole world is practically run by money and who has it and who controls those who dont have any, punks just choose to say f*rk that jaded one sided system and live by their own rules. So some punks dont shower, who cares? That seems to be your problem, they are fine with themselves and dont put you out, do they?

Ahh, the sweet sound of the ignore list.

EDIT: also sorry for calling you arrogant and judgemental, We get a lot of flack simply for how we look and how we act, and i tend to get defensive when people downtalk us who dont know us.

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Oh my dear god, i am going bald on the top of my head and so i shave my head to baldness with a razor so it doesn't make me look like a 50yr old
Does that make me a racist? or indeed a Nazi?

I had no idea that anyone with a skinhead was viewed as a racist or nazi by some people

You got me paranoid now

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Do skinheads like this film ? speaking as a former skinhead yes i like the film . do i like the neo nazi white power philosphy , no i do not like that at all. during my time as a skinhead i never followed any sort of doctrine like that and my best friend was east indian.

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it would make more sense if the term 'skinhead' wasnt misconstrued as it usually is these days. i'd class myself as a skinhead, i have friends from many different places, i work in a multi cultural environment, im far from racist, iv worked my whole life, i have a shaved head, piercings, tattoos etc. what you've got to remember is that the term 'skinhead' came about in the 60s, mainly by white people who liked the rudeboy culture of jamaica,resulting in hundred of gangs of kids, black & white, who hung out together for the same reason kids do these days (similar tastes in music, films, dress sense,hobbys etc). neo-nazis, because they dress similarly, just get called skinheads most of the time, which makes people think of traditional non racist skinheads as being the same, which is wrong.
unfortunately its been used for far too long now for it to be changed, so 99% of the time i can get smiled at by an old lady on the bus or a child or hold a door open & get a normal response, but every once in a while there'll be someone thinking im a racist because of the way i look.
its a sad state of affairs.
its especially strange sometimes when im out with my 4 year old son, some people just cant believe you can be a loving father if you've tattoos & piercings, its crazy

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I cannot speak on what "skinheads" think, but modern American Neo Nazi's perhaps I can.

Some majority, who I cannot describe so politely... the ones you may find on Stormfront or wearing fashions simply do not like it because it ultimately does not shed a positive light on white supremacists.

Another group, which wholeheartedly believes in White Supremacism and backs their belief on facts that they believe in. They do not like it for the same reason but may explain it differently. The theme of the film is that the skinheads really don't know why they hate the jews (such as I could say about the previously mentioned group).

A neo-nazi group from the city of chicago states "The film portrays skinheads as a group of delinquents who have no idea why they do what they do outside of being a bunch of punks who feel the need to redeem their insecurities. That is not how modern white men and women should conduct themselves. Also, the whole jew as a nazi thing is rather predictable" Otherwise they said the film was "well done" in terms of film making.

Take from the above what you will.

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