Paganism vs Christianity


It's interesting how this movie (mini series?) is about the last struggle between paganism (and the antiquity [or iron age?]) and Christianity (and the middle ages) in Britain. It seemed like paganism and Christianity were too polar opposites. But I also remember an interesting scene in the end. It might even have been the very last scene. Christianity has conquered over the old paganism. Morgaine had somehow joined this nunnery. At first, she believed there was no more goddess. But she eventually understood that she only had changed names. (This was the beginning of the middle ages, which of course was the Catholic period in Brittish history, and the Catholics had practically started to vorship the Virgin Mary as a goddess.)

Yes, it's true! IMDB has reached Sweden!

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Power has a tedency to go to your head, and that's true for both men and women. And religious power is as good as any other power, or maybe even better than any other power. Vivianne was a powerful woman, and in that respect, you might call her a "feminist role model". But can you call her a good person? Well, I can't. I especially disliked how she tricked Morgaine and Arthur into conceiving Mordred, even though they were half-siblings.

And returning to the subject of "the goddess", I think I have to add some points, since I'm on a roll about this right now. The reason why the Virgin Mary almost became a Christian goddess is most likely, or even certainly, because a lot of people, especially women, missed how they used to be able to vorship goddesses, female deities, before Christianity became the only legal religion. So ca 1600 years ago, the church simply worked it into their teachings. And even to this day, the Catholic church and the ortodox churches, which are the true descendants of the medieval church, vorship both male and female saints, but a female one, Virgin Mary, is the greatest saint of them all. But when the reformation came in the 1500s, men like Martin Luther and Jean Calvin finally had the guts to teach something, that actually is true, that vorshipping saints isn't encouraged by the Bible, but that it was something, that had come up later on. So the protestant churches have no saints. But what the reformators missed is that the saints were important to many people, and the Virgin Mary was the most important one, especially for the women. So it's funny that Dan Brown in "The Da Vinci code" accuses the Catholic church for having no female deity, when they actually have one, while he doesn't even mention the protestant churches, even though they truely don't have a female deity! (However, he briefly mentions ortodox judaism and islam as oppressive to women.)

Yes, it's true! IMDB has reached Sweden!

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yeah but the clergy's god doesnt give them magical powers.

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It should not have been the beginning of the ''Middle Ages', it should have been the early Dark Ages when the Brythons had been Christian for years. Only later did the heathen Germanic settlers that founded England arrived; this, along with the Christianization of the Gaels and Picts, was the great battle between heathenism and Christianity in the British Isles.

"Namu-myoho-renge-kyo"

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This movie's depiction of that "Conflict" seems to be based on a Popular Feminist myth that Pagan religion, or at least certain ones, and in this case the Celtic ones, where somehow Feminist and not Sexist in nature simply cause many times goddesses where more popular then the gods.

But the fact is society was still just as Patriarchal, they loved to worship the goddesses, usually as symbols, symbols for the earth or the reproductive process. But living breathing human women where still considered good for nothing more then sex, reproduction and playing the goddesses in the ritual reenactments of their myths. And male gods where allowed to rape mortal women in the mythology all the time with no repercussions, and sometimes their victim even get punished.

The Bible is obviously the product a patriarchal society, but the Law of Moses gives women far more basic rights then any of Israel's neighbours did.

And of course the fact is the "Conflict" between Christianity and Paganism didn't end the way they think it did, no it simply ended with Paganism being Christianized.

"It's not about money.... It's about sending a Message..... Everything Burns!!!"

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In a way, I agree with you. Pagan religions weren't as feminist/non-sexist as some people today like to think. But it's also true, that Judaism and Islam have no female deity, and neither does the Protestant denominations of Christianity. And that's a shame, as I believe many people, especially women, have a need for that. That's also why the Catholic church and the Orthodox churches had to give female saints, and especially Mary, a divine status, so people could inofficially see them as their new goddesses. (Because like you said, the Catholic church and the Orthodox churches have often taken elements from the old religions and "christianized" them, so people would have an easier time converting to a new religion.) That's also how Morgaine in this mini series could say, that there still was a goddess, but she had changed her name, when she heard the other nuns pray to Mary in the convent.

Intelligence and purity.

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The Judeo-Christian God has no Gender, because he's not a physical entity to being with, John Chapter 4 Addresses that.

We refer to him with male Pronouns because in terms of his relationship with us he is our Father.

"It's not about money.... It's about sending a Message..... Everything Burns!!!"

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In a way, I agree with you. And that's also how we should see God. But within the Judeo-Christian tradition, God still always has been seen as a Father, a male deity. And while I don't think it actually matters that much to most people these days, it's still something worth thinking about.

Intelligence and purity.

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Catholicism acknowledges, in at least some small way, the natural biological connection between male and female and the importance of both to humanity's existence. Christians refer to God as father, while many people of many beliefs refer to nature as mother. This relationship still puts the male in charge, as God created and controls nature, but nature is always close to humanity and sustains us. Unfortunately, the last couple of centuries have seen a very sad trend in large sectors of humanity turning their backs on both parents. I don't think we're old enough to run away from home yet.

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It shoudl slso be noted that, despite how its depicte din this film and how many seem to have a misconception about it, the Catholkic and Orthodox Chruchesx do not, emphaticlaly do not, grant Divine Satus to Female Saints, or Mary.

Mary is Venerated, but she is not seen as a Mother Goddess. Ubless your reading a Jack Chick Tract, or some NeoPagan Screed in which the Goddess was transformed into the Virign Mary when big bad evil Chrisaisn took over, the Truth is that Mary was always seen as a Mortal Woman. AShe is now Glorified and has become a Saint, thus she Dwells in Heaven, and she is the CHeif ot he Saints for by her did Salvation enter the World, but, she is NOT, most Emphaticlaly not Divine.


Catholcis do not worhsip Mary as a goddess. They never did.


And to menton it, yes I know of the okd Internet myth that once upon a time the Cahtolci Chruch almost mde her a goddess. I think they refer to the Counsil of Ephesis. The Truth is, Ephesis never claimed this, and it was never debated. You won't find any Counsil in all of the CHruches Hisotry that even discussed the Divinity of Mary, nro any writting form the Churhc Fathers, or he Heretical Writtings of yhe Arians, Gnostics, Manishurians, Nestorians, or any other Group. Simply out, there was never a beleif in CHristianity that Mary was a goddess. Ever. It was nerver thought of.

Its also nice to see some honest evaluation on these threads. Its usually all CHristain Basign and talkign abotu how much better the Pagans were ot women, how much mor einclusive they were, ect...

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They do not use the words god or goddess or divine to describe her, but deified is still the end result of the kind of veneration she received.

Jesus says He is the only mediator between Man and God, Catholics praying to Mary and Saints makes them gods to them for all intents and purposes, you only pray to gods.

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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I don't remember Juesus saying he is the ONLY mediator between Man and God. Obviously he could not forbid people to pray to the saints, as saints would only be made after his death and resurrection, but there doesn't seem to me to be anything contradictory in revering Christ as the son of God and praying to the saints to obtain their intercession. In the Catholic faith, Christ is the head of the Church, while the communion of the saints and all the faithful are all one and the same body. Why not address prayers to the saints? Or your departed love ones? it does not mean you invest them with divine powers, simply that you trust they will do their best to intercede in your favor. Mediate, as you say. I don't see the inevitability you seem to see, that it makes them, in effect, godlike. Not from a Catholic POV at any rate.

"Sometimes I'm callous and strange."

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That exact quote is Paul actually, but Jesus said "NO man cometh onto the Father but by Me"

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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I fail to see how that translates as "if you pray to saints you consider them as gods". To me, as to all Catholics I know, that quote means that only through Christ's teachings can you follow God's way (i.e: emphasis on the new Commandment, "Love thy neighbor"...) It has nothing to do (or hardly, to be precise) with who to or how you pray. How did you ever reach that interpretation? is it something you were taught, or a conclusion you reached through your own readings and reflexions? Because i must say, both my own logic and my education contradict that interpretation, so I'm curious.

"Sometimes I'm callous and strange."

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Praying is Worship, it's simple as that Catholics just rationalize it away.

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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This is not going anywhere... Thanks for nothing. Keep on posting statements when people ask for explanations. I hope you never are in a teaching position, that would be just sad for your pupils.

"Sometimes I'm callous and strange."

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Actually the word “Pray” means “to petition”. People ate technically Praying to each other when they talk to one another formally.

In Catholic, Anglican, orthodox, and other older Christian thinking, Prayer to God was not seen as Worship of God. Prayer was making a petition to him. What you said in the Prayer may be worship, but if Prayer was in and of itself Worship then they seem odd because they often say they “Prayed ad Worshipped God”.

Why the distinction?

Just because we associate Prayer with Religion today doesn’t mean prayer is Worship, though.




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Actually, there was a slight variation of goddess worship in Judaism. Kabbalah. God's masculine and feminine energies are recognized

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I think you need to read a LOT about the Christianizing of Britain. Did you know that Celtic Britain had its unique form of Catholicism called Celtic Christianity, and it was this form of the faith that was dominant until 664 CE and the Synod of Whitby. If you study this, I think you will come to understand that there was far less conflict in the conversion of Celtic Britain than the mainland. Why? For one, Celtic Christianity took into consideration local traditions that made conversion easier. Women also had a special place in Celtic Christianity and some argue that the evidence supports the fact that the ruling class of Celtic Britain practiced a form of matriarchy, while the population at large was patriarchal. This permitted the Celtic ruling classes to convert and they in turn helped convert their people. This is a very interesting and complex subject that can't really be addressed on a blog. Read about Celtic Christianity and how it was ultimately peacefully eradicated. I think you will see that there was no real conversion struggle comparable to what occurred on the mainland. One of the most interesting issues is where Celtic Christianity came from? There was nothing else like it in the Roman world. It was never declared heretical. Yet it was different. I can tell you it has to do with when and how Christianity first arrived in the islands and that this may have occurred before Peter and Paul's conversion of Rome, meaning that the Christianizing of the islands began before the Papacy. This gave Britons huge leverage when dealing with Rome. Celtic Christian tradition had Joseph of Arimathea founding the first church outside of Palestine c 40 CE at Glastonbury, which helps explain the veneration of this location even today. That a church was established at Glastonbury was either a matter of chance or plan because it was already a place of high veneration by Celtic natives.

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