Did she really stink as a piano player or was that French "talent-genius" simply making stuff up because she wasn't from the wealthy family?
I mean: Ed, while waiting in the hall, saw that kids have those special "executive" haircuts, that he as a barber instantly recognised. I think the French guy was pretty much profit-oriented. The message: it's not the talent that counts, but the wealth of the family.
Please discuss :D
Why would it matter that she wasn´t from a "wealthy family" as long as her lessons were paid for? The point´s that Ed had no idea what good piano playing is supposed to sound like; the girl knew the notes, but not the music - sort of mirroring how Ed was in life.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
I realized that myself a bit later. :D
She didn't really care about piano, as shown, she simply played 'cause she somehow got into it, without any "heart".
I would like to try something in the field literature myself (it has been my course of studies) and it's quite scary to see someone get so "torn appart" up by an expert ("She stinks!"). Even if it's only in film.
If you catch my drift...? :D
I kind of disagree with your assessment about Ed, franz.
Rather than knowing the notes and not the music, I think Ed knew the music, but not the notes.
What I mean is, you could tell he was yearning for some meaning in his life. He knew everything surrounding him, including his own existence, was meaningless. He knew there was something to life. He knew there was music in life.
But he couldn't, for the life of him, find the path to creating the music in his life. He couldn't find the notes.
IMO Ed was right about Birdy.
Her playing is not without feeling.
She's smart, caring, disciplined and young.
She's just a bit 'fast' in her agitato among other things.
The French Piano Teacher is just another Gabber.
He was cruel to her because she played German music.
The times being post ww2.
The clue is when Birdy says
'If did have a career I'd be a vetin ARIAN'.
This goes deep Ed.
Old Bee Party V Swirled
Birdie's playing moved Ed. It didn't have the same effect on the piano teacher. The quality of any persons playing is subjective. I'm willing to bet there are more Ed the barbers in this world than piano teachers.
shareIMO
There is no discernible difference in the bulk of the playing in the movie between Birdy and the score, and they are interwoven.
Only exception being the concert ...
..that scene is used for Birdy to explain the tempo trouble of her agitato.
Phonetics aside this girl who is 'fast' knows what she is doing.
The other thing is that Ed has to be an idiot not to see how ordinary Birdy's music is, doesn't he?
And that's how it appears throughout, Ed is kind of a simpleton...or else he would know.
Ed's writing is among the Coen's best and seem to come form the heart.
So Ed is ahead of the game on a boom industry(dry cleaning)and up with scientific theory and the UFO registrar. Not what he seems.
So if that little word 'Veterinarian' does hold the ARIAN key to the Piano tacher's prejudice, him being French and WW2 wounds still raw.
Birdy's Beethoven could have sent him off.
So we are alienated form Ed and Birdy..
And being the entrepreneurial producers they are, they can turn a dollar at it.
That's flair.
Old Bee Party V Swirled
"The quality of any persons playing is subjective".
Can`t agree with that - not all opinions are equal. Ed knew nothing of music while the teacher was a seasoned professional who`d heard all kinds of playing. Ed may have thought it`s great... but that`s Ed, the barber (and I can`t blame him - my untrained ear might as easily be smitten with all that pretty music magically emanating from under someone`s fingers right in front of me. Doesn`t mean it`s good next to the truly accomplished pianists, though). And there`s no sensible reason for the teacher to turn down real talent.
As for Birdy and his feelings... she flat out tells Ed that it`s not important to her, that she doesn`t much care about music and she`d rather be doing something else. The effortlessly indifferent face she`s telling it with seems to confirm she`s not just trying to ease Ed`s mind; she means it.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
There is another hint at the French piano teacher's bias.
When Tolliver says re the contract "There it is writ large in legal escritoire' is the moment Ed arks up with 'Hey your'e not going to screw me on this are you'
Old Bee Party V Swirled
French bs?
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
i changed it
Old Bee Party V Swirled
I see. But "another hint"? There weren`t any to begin with - and it still makes no rational sense why the teacher would be biased towards someone he just saw for the first time in his life.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
The hint is about his Frenchness and it's place in the post war era in reguard to all things Germanic.
Put that with Birdy's playing being not obviously bad and maybe quite good ...
(Frenchman's lone voice notwithstanding),
Ed's glaringly obvious insightful ability with the pen
and the somewhat unusual choice (Ed's reaction as well) of the word vetinARIAN ....chuck in the filmakers 'liking' for samesutch trickery,
not to mention effect: the ploy working forensically within the theme of alienation.
It wraps up pretty neat
Also not to mention ESCRITOIRE making Ed mad.
I like to see hints in these works, it's the way I look at them...
If I see one too many it's better than seeing one too few....
It's the way they work and I am fascinated by the what if's...
And it is their chosen style.
Old Bee Party V Swirled
"Frenchman`s lone voice notwithstanding".
However, this "lone voice" is the only one that has any clue what it`s talking about. How do you KNOW she plays well? What`s your level of expertise in piano playing?
As for the rest then vague, cryptic would-be allusions (or "hints") are a poor substitute for common sense. And what are you saying, anyway? That Coens had some kind of agenda that compelled them to present the French as elitist, irrationally biased douchebags?
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
The film is about Alienation.
How does the film make us feel the characters alienation.
One way could be to present them as one thing when they are really something else.
Ed is presented as an idiot and Birdy as a no talent.
But are they really?
I can't hear much difference between what Birdy is playing and what the real piano players are playing on the soundtrack.
Not enough to dismiss her as a typist.
Trust your ear.
Listen to the music.
Why the insult when her playing is at least comparable to a professional soundtrack?
Maybe the whole soundtrack is played in a no talent typist style and I can't pick it...Maybe not.
It's a theory, give it a fair go, try it on for size ..don't dismiss it without doing some listening for yourself.
It's nice music to listen to anyway.
Old Bee Party V Swirled
Firstly, I disagree Ed is presented as an "idiot".
Secondly, you seem to have failed to share the level of expertise you have in classical music... and if you do NOT have a background in serious piano playing, then your opinions are obviously worthless. And I can`t trust my ear...
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
Look um you might be right about this whole thing...
It's not the point.
It's like an adventure of possibilities. A ship going to sea.
If you don't hear the call why are you bothering?
It's a bit of fun on a thread, musing on a tangent
I'm on my own on this one but no matter....
I didn't trust my ear either so I listened over and over...
You couldn't pick it so that's 2 out of 2 can't....
Why wouldn't they make it obvious if she stunk?
Old Bee Party V Swirled
"Why wouldn`t they make it obvious if she stunk?"
Because it`s not a broad comedy - it`s about subtleties. A true mastery in piano playing is about subtleties, something a layman wouldn`t pick up. And, to draw a parallel to Ed and his inability to really connect with the world, that`s about subtleties, too, as outwardly, there`s nothing obviously wrong with him. And yet he`s merely going through motions just like Birdie hits all the right keys and yet fails to bring true life to music she plays.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
Yeah i get it ..
You're right.
If only I could prove the subtlety of the piano playing but of course I can't ..
Do you see anything hidden beneath the surface at all?
I'm just imagining things
The Frenchman is French because....?
All the music is German because.....?
It's set in 1948 because...?
Birdy wants to be a Vetinarian because....?
She mucked up her agitato because......?
Ed's words were extraordinary because....?
Why does Franky say 'Dont say those words Ed'....?
The Frenchman is (not so subtly) insulting because.....?
Tolliver says ESCRITOIRE because ...... ?
Red blooded American girls are all typists.
My theory answers all these?
DO HINTS EXIST?
You're right though I can't prove the subtlety of the piano playing...
The inherent inprovability of a hint is your ace in the hole...
The way you do it is interesting..
Don't you wonder just for the sake of wonder
Old Bee Party V Swirled
You`re not trolling, are you?
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
Okay ..... bad manners wont' work in this car.
I am involved in a study of this work so....
It's that simple
Now back to business ... how about this little gem from Creighton Tolliver when Ed fails to recognize his rug (the first haircut scene).
'Hand crafted by Jaques of San Francisco, Fools even the experts'
The French piano teacher's name .....Tdah....JAQUES OF SAN FRANCISO.
This is a hint that the latter Jaques (Piano Jaques) is ......?
This is not a hoax.
I could spell it all out for you but it would be too boring for me ..seriously.
You have to give a bit too.
As it stands you have made little or no attempt to say to me that you even understand what I am talking about.
How do I know you do?
You may be making impolite accusations without understanding anything.
Let me know if you do at least understand what I am talking about.
Have you even done a re watch with this theory in mind?
BTW ...I don't think the T word is working for you.
If I am right then one of the worlds great mysteries has been solved.
The Great mystery of 'The Man Who Wasn't There'.
..and you helped me
Old Bee Party V Swirled
maybe you're on to something
Mark Twain has a nice long list of anti-French quotes
"There is nothing lower than the human race except the French."
[- quoted by Carl Dolmetsch, Our Famous Guest]
http://www.twainquotes.com/French.html
Had occasion to watch TMWWT again...
At the very beginning, Frank is gabbing and grousing about the French while cutting that little kid's hair - something about French traders and beavers and pelts being the rage in Paris.....
During the dinner with Dave, Dave uses an obscenity and says “if you’ll pardon the, uh….” – In NCFOM Ed-Tom uses that same phrase when telling the Charlie Walser story to Carla Jean “six hundred pounds of very pissed-off livestock, - if you'll pardon me...”
“Pardon my French” when we curse…..
Pardon my French when we "Drop the F-Bomb"
hmmm
wonder what the "F" stands for?
......French?
yeah..
you may have something there
"French are the connecting link between man & the monkey."
- Notebook #20, Jan. 1882 - Feb. 1883
That Jacques Carcanagoues is most definitely depicted as a latent homo sapiens - a pompous jacka$$. His opinion is without merit.
"An isolated & helpless young girl is perfectly safe from insult by a Frenchman, if he is dead."
- Notebook #18, Feb.- Sept. 1879
Birdy wasn't.
Oh I'm on to something alright ...
The French piano expert still harbored anti Arian feelings from the War. (1948)
Birdy played German music and that sunk her goose....
Ed knew but didn't know why ...
The Jaques of Frisco 'fool the experts' rug line from the Pansy in the second chair at the Barber Shop?
That's a sealer....
Birdy only playing slow Beethoven and mucking up her Agitato at the concert...
Her line about not caring about music 'ordinarily'
Her wanting to be a vetin ARIAN.
.. and Ed ...a goose in the story and a genius as a writer.
This goes deep Ed ...it goes deep and it involves the Coen Brothers ..and music
Have you ever noticed how the band at the Christmas 'Push' at Nirdlingers are very different from the music being played...
There's a %%$##@! piano accordion for @#$%! sake.
Old Bee Party V Swirled
lots of things going on
must re-watch
you've probably already noted
the birds of a feather
Birdy
Goose
Early bird
chickens
Miss Swan
and of course
the bird of happiness luck and longevity -
The Crane...
As the med examiner tells Ed
on parting from him
"Good Luck Crane"
Yes
So when Tolliver says
'Handcrafted by Jaques of San Francisco, fools even the experts'.
about his rug.
He's talking about the piano expert Jaques of San Francisco and his mistreatment of Birdy.
Birdy could play...but she played German music
and Jaques being French still harbored anti German feelings form WW2 in 1948.
That's why Birdy says 'vetinarian' ARIAN
There's also, when Tolliver speaks French 'ESCRITOIRE' is when Ed arks up with
'... you're not going to screw me on this are you Tolliver?'
All the experts missed it ...
It's about alienation and because we think Birdy is no better than a typist..
Even though she's been playing the beautiful music we've been listening to..
Fools even the experts...
Am I the first person to get this?
Tell me I'm wrong...HELLOOOOOO...
Is there some one out there who knows about these things?
Don't I get a prize or something.
Old Bee Party V Swirled
"You may be making impolite accusations without understanding anything".
Firstly, I have made no "accusations". Secondly, I don`t see any great secret or mystery looming on the horizon here; obviously, you`re trying to force some kinda post-WW2 geopolitical allegory onto the film, but all I see are some bits and pieces that don`t seem to add up to a whole lot. And even assuming for the moment the teacher indeed was purposefully mistreating Birdy out of some ill conceived sense of patriotism... what`s the oh-so-meaningful upshot here? What profound things is it supposed to be saying about alienation? All I see simmering on the horizon is an allegation that there`s stuff majorly wrong with the French (poor Coens - first there`s some looney on the loose accusing them of hatred towards Asians hate... and now the French). I agree that Tolliver speaking about a Jacques from SF is an interesting little nugget and I`m not opposed to a rewatch, but at this point, the insinuations look quite tentative... and the veterinarian (I think that`s the word you`re after) bit seems quite silly though.
And here`s hoping your theory - in case you really have one - don`t have anything to do with space aliens.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
[deleted]
Firstly, I have made no "accusations".
I don`t see
you`re trying to force
WW2 geopolitical allegory.
purposefully mistreating Birdy out of some ill conceived sense of patriotism
What profound things is it supposed to be saying about alienation?
an allegation that there`s stuff majorly wrong with the French
first there`s some looney on the loose accusing them of hatred towards Asians hate... and now the French
I agree that Tolliver speaking about a Jacques from SF is an interesting little nugget and I`m not opposed to a rewatch
but at this point, the insinuations look quite tentative
and the veterinarian (I think that`s the word you`re after) bit seems quite silly, to be honest.
"Trolling compliment".
It was an honest question, seeing as your babblings would not add up to much of anything rational or significant. Now, however, it would appear you`re actually confirming your troll status.
"1948 French, Italian, Japanese, German are prominent in text or music".
Did you find that out all by yerself? Unfortunately, a) that also applies to times before and since and b) is quite an irrelevant remark.
"Some twisted acknowledgement".
I didn`t "acknowledge" anything, I was describing your apparent position - which is just as improbable as it was before; the teacher must have been patriotic to the point of rabid derangement to balk at Beethoven being played.
"Does everything have to be profound?"
So you admit yourself you`ve got nothing of particular importance to say behind the pretence of holding a key to some great, film-redefining mystery waiting to be unraveled? Good.
"I, a seeker, really need to be lumped in with the bigots".
You`re insinuating Coens are bigots.
"Obvious connection and you know it".
And the only point with any potential that you seem to have got.
"Happy to be silly".
Good for you. And I`m sure the film would also have been about some post-WW2 geopolitical reverberations had Birdy wanted to be, say, a proletARIAN or librARIAN... right?
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
honest
rational or significant
also applies to times before and since
irrelevant remark
insinuating Coens are bigots.
only point with any potential
proletARIAN or librARIAN