'I made him do it and i loved it' - The Dangerous Lives of Altar Boys (2002) Discussion

[–] lindsaybolles 18 years ago

no i agree with you, i think she was just saying it because she truly believed that it was her fault. her entire character kinds of creates that image about her, about being a victim and not having any self-confidence, i think.

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[–] jamesgaus 17 years ago

I think it means exactly what she said it means, which is refreshing. I can't remember ever seeing that in a film before.

People have such a problem accepting someone could do this. In our modern culture, there is understandably the automatic reversal to a "victim mentality", which I'm sure IS appropriate for 80% of instances. Nice to see a change of pace.

Women are sexual beings too, and account for 50% of the world's population. Stuff like this happens every day...

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[–] erikc05 17 years ago

Refreshing? I dare say more disturbing.

She was referring to her brother sexually assaulting her. Considering she's not just a one-dimensional character but a real person, there's many conflicting emotions and thoughts that are going on here. People are taught to put family above all else; in essence, family comes first. This isn't pure "victim mentality" as you put it. This is "victim mentality" when the "attacker" is one of your own family.

Also, if it's appropriate for 80% of the time, what makes this the exception? Where in the story did you garner any truth in the otherwise?

I do recognize that women are sexual beings too, I'm not a complete imbecile. However that's not the only thing at play here. The sexual molestation of a 12 year old girl (I believe she's 11-12?) is not supposed to be something that we (the audience) take lightly.

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[–] eaten_peppermint 17 years ago

Yeah, I agree with the other poster. Sure, MAYBE she was just 'self-loathing' because it's a 'typical response' from a supposed 'rape victim'. Or, it could be (and I'm kinda leaning towards this answer) what the other guy said in that she meant exactly what she said. She "made him do it" and she "loved it."

I think what the other poster is trying to say that women can "rape" or "sexually abuse" too. And just because it's quite common that most women involved in sexual abuse in which they are the victim claim to 'feel guilty' doesn't mean it's a one hundred percent conclusion for all.

I always remember this line from a song: "Cause everyone's heart doesn't beat the same."

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[–] erikc05 17 years ago

You're entitled to your opinion but I just happen to think you're completely off-base on this one.

I think it's too simple to take her words at face value. She's already proven herself as an unreliable source by changing her story around from when she and Francis are fooling around to when she confronts him outside the school.

I also don't believe anyone said anything about self-loathing. Perhaps you think it's to save herself from "self-loathing"?

Yeah MAYBE you're right... or maybe you're wrong?

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[–] Portland_Pirate 17 years ago

I read this book quite awhile ago, when I was about the same age as the main characters, and in that story, she says that she waited until her brother was stoned, and then tricked him into what happened. To suggest that she did it because "women have sexual urges too" is WAY oversimplifying the situation, and makes it sound as if this is a normal thing. I bet that in real life, she would have been abused some time before that happened. So, she did make him do it, and she did love it, but I think that she hated that about herself. Who would be happy about making your brother sleep with you, and then enjoying it on top of that?

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[–] Ithilfaen 17 years ago

I think she probably wanted him to hate her. If she had initiated the whole thing, she probably wouldn't have said that she "let Donny" do things to her in the first scene. It really didn't seem at that time that she was trying to divert the blame on her brother... why would she? She was just confiding in him. She had no reason to lie... she already though he was going to hate her for it.

After the incident at the gym, she sounded more angry that he told anyone than ready to finally tell the truth. she wanted to hurt him back. Also she probably was afraid he was going to tell someone at school about her brother molesting her but if he thought it was her fault, he'd probably keep his mouth shut.
That would also explain the attitude of her brother, beating him and then protecting himself by giving the scrapbook to the nun.

In any case, there's no "victimization" here... women are sexual, they seduce men, yes it does happen. However when we're talking about rape and incest, "Stuff like this happens every day..." is a little extreme, don't you think?

For every lie I unlearn I learn something new - Ani Difranco

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[–] jamesgaus 17 years ago

I respect all those affected directly or indirectly by abuse, and they have my sympathy. That being said, the vast majority of sexual abuse & assaults go unreported.

If it DOES happen every day, then I see nothing "extreme" about it. It is simply a fact.

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[–] mksmith 15 years ago

At the beginning of the film, someone (the sister, I think) mentions that the boys aren't behaving as they ought to "for Eighth Grade." Which makes them all around 13 or 14.

I only recently saw the film, but I read the book when it first came out. When Francis and Margie first get together at school and agree to meet, she comes across as tentative and innocent -- the same as Francis. The impression I got, however, after Margie confesses that her relationship with her brother was *her* doing and not his, was that, earlier, she was playing the role that was expected of her. But now she's attempting to manipulate Francis the same way she had manipulated her brother. She's not so innocent as Francis (and the viewer) might have believed. She's also much more forthright in that later scene; she sheds maybe two tears, and that's it. I appreciated the complication -- that this wasn't just a cut-and-dried case of older-brother-abuses-younger-sister. Makes for much more multidimensional characters.

I wish the film had given Jodie Foster's Sister Assumpta the extra depth she has in the book. But you have to trim somewhere or you end up with a 12-hour movie.

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[–] Lord_Gyaldhart 14 years ago

I read this book quite awhile ago, when I was about the same age as the main characters, and in that story, she says that she waited until her brother was stoned, and then tricked him into what happened. To suggest that she did it because "women have sexual urges too" is WAY oversimplifying the situation, and makes it sound as if this is a normal thing. I bet that in real life, she would have been abused some time before that happened. So, she did make him do it, and she did love it, but I think that she hated that about herself. Who would be happy about making your brother sleep with you, and then enjoying it on top of that?

It is not oversimplifying it at all. She was an inmature horny teenager with sexual urges who saw the opportunity to satisfy these needs (more than once through the use of blackmail and abuse) and she loved it.

Women HAVE sexual urges too and it IS normal; the situation here however DOES take a darker shade because it is incest, and she clearly eventually suffers the consequences of these acts, to the point in which she tries to take her own life and lives with constant remorse.

That's at least what I interpreted from the movie, and judging the comment of a poster who already read the book, it seems that it is the correct interpretation.

I liked jamesgaus remark:

I think it means exactly what she said it means, which is refreshing. I can't remember ever seeing that in a film before.

People have such a problem accepting someone could do this. In our modern culture, there is understandably the automatic reversal to a "victim mentality", which I'm sure IS appropriate for 80% of instances. Nice to see a change of pace.

Women are sexual beings too, and account for 50% of the world's population. Stuff like this happens every day...

Is curious, but my brother watched the movie with me and he also assumed inmediately that she had been abused by her brother, it is true definetely that in our sexist societies we tend to think automatically of the female one as the victim, specially if she is an "innocent" teenager.

It is indeed refreshing to see a change of pace.

Is easier to believe in a pleasant fiction than a cruel reality

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[–] fanaticita 15 years ago

I guess I should have listened to the interview or commentary. Many abuse victims (willing or not) at a young age often take the blame for the abuse for whatever reason. However if in the interview the director or screenwriter gave another explantaion so be it.

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[–] LeoDRK 14 years ago

[I know this message comes a little later]

The film isn't ambiguous about it. In the beginning there no suggestions of rape. She says "I've done things" and "I let him do things". Rape victims doesn't do things neither let the aggressor do things.
Furthermore, her brother is a year older. And not even over 18. There is no reason for considering it a rape.

I believe it is intended to be something they just did. And they regret, deeply.

_Leo_

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[–] Lord_Gyaldhart 14 years ago

She is the one who takes advantage of the brother when he is high, and then continues doing it by blackmailing him because as she herself admitted, she LOVED it.

Like Leo said, there is nothing ambiguous about this to make us think otherwise, she is quite clear about that.

And yes, they regret it deeply when they feel remorse about what they did, she even tried to kill herself, and the brother is visibly shaken when he finds out that there are people who know that dark secret.

Christianity's GREATEST ally and BEST friend throughout history is Satan

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[–] dklustick1 12 years ago

It was by far the filthiest thing I've ever heard in film... and they never really resolved it either... just kinda left you hanging with that goose-egg.

"Freedom?This isnt about freedom If Im gonna get my balls blown off for a word,my word is poontang"

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[–] mrnocal 12 years ago

Just a thought...that evening when Francis visited her and her older brother was evidently babysitting his younger siblings, and Margie and Francis were laying on the bed together...the brother saw them, said "sorry" as if he was saying "we'll leave you alone now...as you were" and closed the door. He very well could've been leaving them alone in hopes that perhaps she could gratify herself with Francis and thereby ending his own turmoil at being forced to have relations with her.
Please do not attack me for my opinions...we're all entitled to them.

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[–] minhal92 12 years ago

Hmm, to be honest I really think she meant it, and I do kind of agree, it was a 'refreshing touch' in some ways. In the first scene where she confesses I automatically assumed she was forced to do so in some way but when she confesses the second time I think that was her true self and she didn't even feel sorry about it. As she says she LOVED IT, I think she really did and it was a nice touch.

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[–] jajceboy 11 years ago

I think she meant exactly what she said: She made him do it and she loved it.End of story.

I agree that it was a refreshing touch. She was in control and loved the power she had over him. You don't see that in films too often.
I appreciate that they dared to take that route.

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[–] Lord_Gyaldhart 10 years ago

Yep, people find that part of the movie confusing, because in our sexist societies we immediately put the girl as the victim, even more so if she is a teenager.

Christianity's GREATEST ally and BEST friend throughout history is Satan

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