Very offensive movie.


Italian soldiers weren't playboys in vacation.

Thank you, Hollywood, to be again so unpolite with us.

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i agree with you completely (being italian myself) but i think it symbolises the fact italian soldiers did not want to be there...they were draged into it by the germans they didnt think they were superior to anyone else like the germans did...in my opinion it shows how italians wernt fooled at all by the whole 3rd reich thing etc they new hitler was crazy as was mussolini.

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yeah, but Cage's character, flirting with Cruz's... if we do something like this, reversing the roles, americans bomb Cinecittà.............................

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For what it's worth, I didn't feel that the Italians were "playboys on vacation" - they were simply human beings ordered to go somewhere they didn't want to be and trying to make the most of it. I'm not sure that's an insult.

Additionally, while I never thought I would defend US cinema at any given time, the film is based on the wonderful book by a *British* author...

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Cage played too much the playboy, in this movie...

(you can't imagine how much british can be boring, with us italians....)

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Playboy, or just someone who loves life?

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...in my opinion it shows how italians wernt fooled at all by the whole 3rd reich thing


But it was Mussolinis decission to invade Greece not Hitlers, he didn't even inform him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War

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thats true but most italians didnt like mussolini his popularity with italians was in no way the same as hitlers with the germans and italians didnt want to go to war etc while allot of germans even if they wont admit it today liked hitler.

The Nightrider!!! That is his name...the Nightrider. Remember him when you look at the night sky!

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sounds like quite patriotic theories, can you name any sources or links to websites proofing your thesis?

I wounder if it was possible to invade Albania, Ethiopia, Greece and Libya against public support ...

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wait, we invaded Lybia in 1910 (around that year), then Mussolini invaded Albania, then Ethiopia and then he tried to invade Greece...

but people thought it was okay Lybia, Albania and Ethiopia, while people were tired of wars, when Mussolini tried to invade Greece...

it's difficult to explain it in english, but war against Greece was an unpopular war...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin

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wait, we invaded Lybia in 1910 (around that year),


Sorry, my fault I meant the start of the north african campaign against Egypt starting from Libya. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campagna_del_Nord_Africa

war against Greece was an unpopular war...


So what, AFAIK war against France and Britain was also unpopular in German population, a lot of people hated the idea to repeat the killings at the frontline like in WWI.

Politicians always manipulate their population to believe the next war is selfdefence and the enemy is villian. For example a big part of the american population believes Sadam Hussein was involved in 9/11! Why?

My point is: This thread was started to complain against stupid cliches in holliwood movies! But pleace don't try to replace them by new stupid cliches.

Nazi germany had plenty of allies and some of the neutral countries were quite eager to collaborate. E.g. before Poland got invaded, it was quite happy to gain some territory from the disintegration of Checkoslovakia - very intelligent!

Greece was a more pro german neutral country, Mussolinis invasion was militaric nonsense!

If we want to learn from history it's necessary to be precise!

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Mussolini, invading Greece and declaring war with USA, drank his brain... many "gerarchi" said: "How we can do war with USA? With the peanuts?"...

but the dictatorships are dictatorships...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin

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Do I understand you right ...Italians were against attacking Greece, not because they didn't want to invade other people but because this time it implied declaring war to the US?

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no, because they wanted peace...

they (we) were against the war, Greece or USA it was the same...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin

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I beg to differ. The Italians were shown as being very human. I though they had more character than the Nazis, thats for sure.

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Think again:

http://pricegraphicarts.tripod.com/WorldWideTerrorism/id52.htm

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excuse me, said I "all the italian soldiers were good guys!"?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin

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I am talking to EnemyOfTheState.

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It is a sad fact that all nations ignorantly form badly generalized opinions about other nations. Americans think that all Italians are lovers and not fighters and they enjoy life a lot more than they actually do. Italians happen to think that all Americans are either fat or beautiful or eat only fast food. I can tell you for a fact that there are a lot of ugly skinny Americans. And a lot of us rarely eat fast food because we think it tastes nasty. Anyway, it is an unfortunate fact that everyone believes false things about eveyone else. I lived in Italy for two years and met thousands of Italians, but not one fit what Americans would consider the "typical Italian." It's unfotunate for the rest of the world that so many movies are made by Americans and thus are filled with ridiculous American conceptions of what people from other nationalities are like. On the other hand, though, if other countries were making movies about the US, their portrayals of Americans wouldn't likely be any more accurate than our takes on them are. Per la parte mia, vi chiedo scusa per cio' che Hollywood fa e voglio che sapiate che io rifuto di guardare i film che mostrano gli italiani che non agiscono come italiani veri. Ciao.

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Hollywood does not speak for all of us you know...

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non preoccuparti, non hai niente di cui scusarti, lo so che gli USA non sono come Hollywood vi rappresenta...

Hollywood rappresenta solo paesi da fantascienza............

(complimenti per il tuo italiano!)

Ciao!

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Hi gtarna, I have not seen the film yet, but being greek, I'd like to say to all italians in these boards that there are still love stories like that one that inspire books even these last years. I hope you don't really think that things like that never happened ... and in the islands were I'm from, people remember italian soldiers as kind and respectful of others. That said, I should add my love and admiration for that fine mixture of culture and elegance Italy has been to me - cosa mai potrei desiderare dalla vita dopo aver vissuto per 6 anni a Roma ))) Ciao a tutti, e venite alle isole dell'Egeo a trovarci )))

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vuoi altri turisti italiani? Non ne avete ancora abbastanza?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin

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Finche' venite tutti quanti .....

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Excuse me, an American movie? I know Nicolas Cage is American, but I thought that was about as far as it went.

Proof that God has a sense of humour - George W is President.

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It'a actually a US/UK/French co-production and although it was directed by an Englishman it's so Americanised that it's barely recognisable from the book. So many films are produced primarily for American audiences that it becomes very frustrating for those of us from that master race that I call non-American. It's bad enough that so many of their own films which we're constantly subjected to are so turgid and saccharine, but when they start taking the rest of the world's books/plays/etc and making them American friendly - well that's just plain rude.

And I'm not attacking anyone on this board, so chill.

"Obviously you're not a golfer."

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"...and although it was directed by an Englishman it's so Americanised that it's barely recognisable from the book."

I agree that it digresses from the book - but the plot changes were down to decisions made by director John Madden (British) and screen-writer Shawn Slovo (South African). I am not American, and nor do I approve of what they do to many of the stories / books they turn into films. But this was a clear case of the British-lead contingent trying to appease dissenters and alter the story to make a better 'fit' for a different medium. It made a good film, and does not in any way detract from a fantastic book.

Proof that God has a sense of humour - George W is President.

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Was not the book written by an Italian?

Did anyone see the Italian made movie Mediterano?

In my opinion it showed the Italian soldiers as total fools. Likeable yes, but fools all the same.

All the same, its like my Italian grandmother told me, Mussolini failed because he failed to realize Italians are lovers and not fighters.

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no, the book written by a french...

Mediterraneo is another kind of movie, it's not a movie about the war, as people said me...

and mussolini failed because italian soldiers hadn't weapons... luckily, or now there was fascism and nazism everywhere...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin

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I watched the film again tonight, and I must say I can see nothing offensive to italian soldiers whatsoever !!! Italians left this immage in the Greeks of the time in the Greek islands, the immage of young men who would much prefer sing and dance than make war (or commit atrocities). It's not a matter of what we know or we think about them now, but how Greek people saw them back then. I do not see what was it that some find offensive, sorry.
And the reasons why Mussolini failed could not be that Italian soldiers hadn't weapons !!! Who ever said that ??? Mussolini failed because he made the wrong alliance with the wrong country in the worst time possible. He lost the war long before it ended, even before it started. Please check again your history books and we talk about it sometime soon )))


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"And the reasons why Mussolini failed could not be that Italian soldiers hadn't weapons !!! Who ever said that ???"

italian soldiers.

But the problem is italian soldiers wasn't there for dating ("hey, bella signorina!"), they were in Greece for a very wrong war. And greeks weren't so happy for the invaders, nice playboys in vacations, they fought bravely, so the women don't jumped between italian arms... it was a war, not a orgy.

"Greeks don't fight like heroes, heroes fight like Greeks." - Winston Churchill

così com'è nel film, sembra che la resistenza greca fosse formata da ragazzi che non avevano nulla da fare e così, per noia, diedero fastidio a quei simpatici giovanotti italiani che erano così inoffensivi...

alla fine, se i nazisti dovettero rinviare la campagna di Russia fu perchè furono mandate intere armate contro di voi (inutilmente, perchè se non sbaglio resisteste sino all'ultimo), altro che ragazze greche compiacenti!

Se un solo soldato italiano avesse provato a fare il fesso, una sola delle vostre donne avrebbe rispedito in mare l'intero battaglione a calci nel sedere!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin

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Wait, please. Take a deep breath and then read this.

The reasons why Mussolini failed was also that the Italian army was not well prepared for a war like WW II. However, the regime could have survived, had it found a way to keep out of the war and out of that dangerous alliance with Hitler, like Franco's Spain managed to do.

Non ho visto affatto presentare la resistenza Greca come l'hai vista te, quindi non posso dire che hai torto - forse abbiamo un modo diverso di interpretare il film. Molti erano i giovani, e anche giovanissimi che ci hanno dato la vita a quella causa. Dal'altra parte, almeno in una regione della Grecia (le allora ''isole Italiane del Egeo'') ci sono state delle storie d'amore e come, tra soldati Italiani e ragazze Greche. É ovvio che non era una cosa di cui andare fieri, ma non erano neanche poste allo stesso livello delle relazioni con i Tedeschi. Devo anche dirti che molti hanno perso la vita nel tentativo di nascondere soldati Italiani dopo l'armistizio ... quindi la realtá non é mai bianco e nero, né si puó sapere tutto dai libri. Io ho sentito parlare di storie da persone che le hanno veramente vissute. Rispetto il tuo punto di vista, ma continuo a non vedere qualcosa di offensivo nel film, rispetto alle testimonianze che ho avuto occasione di sentire.

Ciao e a presto.

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"However, the regime could have survived"

everyone agrees, everyone here thinks fascism could have survived...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin

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gtarna,

I don't mean to insult you, I swear it but I just want to ask, what is your opinion of Fascism?

Was it a good thing or bad thing? My grandparents told me that in their day, the Fascists did a lot of good things for Italy, they brought work for people, they destroyed the Mafia, they improved the cities and so on. But after Mussolini and Hitler made their deal Italy was dragged into a war they could not fight and lost as a result. Italy became a battleground between the Germans and the allies and the real losers were the Italian people.

Now this is what I was told, not what I say. I was not born at the time of the war.

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fascism was a dictatorship. Good things or not, there wasn't freedom.

It did good things, okay, but every legal government could do them.

And mafia wasn't destroyed, it came mostly in America...

Fascism in Italy is greatly overrated, believe me.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin

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[deleted]

Italy wasn't dragged into war.

It waited until it looked like Germany would definitely defeat France to launch a pathetic attack on the Franco-Italian border (which was repulsed by a small number of French alpine troops).

Italy was also heavily invested in North Africa and/or Absynnia (Ethiopia).

In fact the only reason Hitler sent troops to North Africa was because the Italians were getting whipped so badly by Commonwealth troops that it was making the Axis look bad.

And Mussolini attacked Greece without any warning or even notifying Hitler, in fact it threw off the Germans timetable for invading the Soviet Union and may have contributed to its defeat (by not letting them capture Moscow before the first frost).

Italy also sent something like half a million men to fight in Russia btw.

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Militarily the Italian Army performed extremely poorly because it didn't have proper heavy equipment (tanks, artillery, heavy machine-guns, anti-tanks weapons especially the last made them impotent in the war in Russia) and leadership (Italian officers treated enlisted men like animals).

There were a small number of units which were well-equipped and well-led which fought extremely well (paratroop divisions).

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Louis De Bernieres is not French, he is English.




"Why does Ross, the largest of the friends, not simply eat the other five?"

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o shut up. i hate it when people pick on rediculous aspects of an otherwise wonderful movie. if i was both a guy and a soldier in world war II and i had a break from the front lines, i'd be all over those greek beaches as if there was no tomorrow, which in some cases might even be true.

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hate to burst your bubble, but the majority of the italian soldiers were playboys...trust me, my grandmother grew up in kefallonia during the same time period and has told me that all they did was party and drink...i'm not trying to offend anyone, but its the truth

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Even the French beat the Italians in WW2.

In 1940 the Italians invaded Southern France. Within 2 weeks the French annilated them killing and capturing thousands of Italians while losing something like only 300 of their own men.

Hell, in 1936 the Italians couldent even beat the Ethopians when the Italians had tanks and aircraft and they had to use chemical weapons just to beat a few people with spears, yes spears for gods sake almost annilated the Italian Army with tanks. The Ethopians also beat the Italians at the Battle of Adowa in 1896 as well.

1896 - got annilated by the Ethopians in the Battle of Adowa.
1936 - got beaten by Ehopians with spears and few British soliders.
1940 - got beaten by the Greeks, needed the Germans to save them.
1940 - invaded France and got annilated by the French.
1941 - invaded Egypt and got annilated by the British, once again the Germans had to save them.

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The Italian conquered Ethiopia in 1938, you mean the invasion in 1800's. There were no British soldiers in Ethiapio in 1936.

There were a lot of Italian victories. Here check out this website:

www.commandosupremo.com

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Penso che il film non sia offensivo verso gli italiani, ma perdipiù verso i tedeschi, che li fa vedere col solito stereotipo del nazista crudele e cattivo. Comunque l'unico vero grande film americano sugli italiani in guerra.

I think the movie isn't offensive towards italians, but towards Germans, that depicts them with the stereotype of the bad bad nazi. Anyhow it's the very only big american movie on italians at war.

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Bad Nazi? The massacres actually took place and my grandpa was actually in an Italian unit going through U-Boat training in Germany and when Mussolini was toppled they were arrested by the Germans and set to be killed, but luckily he jumped off during the train ride. The Germans had no right to shoot the Italian soldiers because an event they had no control over occured. Danm *beep*

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That can be true of most people in war (that they are not responsible for larger events).

I agree there were some killings of Italians by Germans but I don't think it was extremely widespread (also antifascist partisans killed Germans after 1943). And keep in mind that Italy essentially switched sides in both world wars against Germany, that's not exactly the kind of behavior that inspires friendship.

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The24thFoot wrote:
1896 - got annilated by the Ethopians in the Battle of Adowa.
-TRUE, BUT THE ETHIOPIANS WERE SOME 100,000, THE ITALIANS SOME 15,000. THE ETHIOPIANS HAD MODERN WEAPONS THEY BOUGHT FROM THE FRENCH AND THE RUSSIANS, IT'S A POPULAR MITH FROM LOCAL PROPAGANDA THEY ONLY HAD SPEARS.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adowa)

1936 - got beaten by Ehopians with spears and few British soliders.
-THEY ACTUALLY OCCUPIED ETHIOPIA IN 1937-38

1940 - got beaten by the Greeks, needed the Germans to save them.
-TRUE

1940 - invaded France and got annilated by the French.
-THEY ACTUALLY OCCUPIED SOUTHERN FRANCE IN 1940

1941 - invaded Egypt and got annilated by the British, once again the Germans had to save them.
-PARTIALLY TRUE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_El_Alamein)

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Honestly, you guys must still be in high school or something. Some of you dont seem to know anything about human nature or behavior in times of war. Read any historical account and you'll find that the life of a soldier is largely a life of monotony and boredom (especially when one's job is to baby-sit a villiage, with little prospect of action). The only available means to alleviate said boredom is through alcohol, women, and the detonation of munitions, as these are universally appealing and can be easily aquired/supplied.



As far as speaking in terms of absolutes when it comes to politics- you can't. There are no absolutes. Both Fascism and Democracy have their perks, it's all about what you place value in. Do you value law and order and having the trains run on time? Or do you value liberty and being able to say whatever you want whenever you want? Saying "Fascism is evil, Democracy is good" (or vice-versa)demonstrates a glib and naive perception of life. And pulling out stories of atrocities committed by one side or the other fails to prove anything. Every government in the history of earth has done questionable or outright evil things. The reason for this is because there is no "right" or "perfect" system. Why? because the architechts of government ignore the fact that regardless of it's charter or constitution, governments are run by the perpetually fallible HUMAN BEING. Every system is flawed in this way.

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No doubt the massacres really took place. I am though sure that the Germans didn't have fun killing un-armed prisoners. Perhaps the nazi-fanatic officers had fun. I'm sure the Jerries were soldiers just as others. The "proof" is the great interpretation of Cpt.Gunther Weber's actor, who is very sad and traumathized after the execution. They had to leave the family too. Read some Remarque books or look at movies such as Stalingrad or Die Bruecke. I'm sure too that I'll be fanatically assaulted by other guys that don't have my same opinion.

My name is self-provocatory. Inverse psychology. I'm Italian but not a fascist.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

Fact, many Italian soldiers were indifferent to WW2 and their performence showed, when they had a chance many surrendered. Few defended to the bitter end.

Fact, the Italian soldier is no more monolithic in their conduct or thoughts than any other nationality. There were undoubtedly many who acted just like portrayed in the movie. This is especially true, when taking into account their known tendency to not be wholesale advocates of the war they were fighting.

Fact, many were murdered by the Germans at the end of the war. It is doubtful that if they had been dutiful soldiers they would have been murdered.

Fact, many soldiers of most nationalities just want to have fun. Thinking Italians are immune to this is naive.

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I agree that the film is rather offensive to Italians, and especially Italian soldiers in WWII. The filmmakers were in some kind of dilemma here. I think they were aware of the significant contributions of the Italian forces to the War and that the soldiers had fought heroically on many occasions. But weren’t these heroes from Mussolini’s fascist regime? So to solve this problem, the film tried to suggest that the Italian people were actually peace-loving, and Italy was dragged by the Germans (or Hitler) into the War. Actually, Italy declared war on France only a few days before she was forced to agree on an armistice with Germany. At that time, it appeared that Britain too would soon be forced to come to terms, and Mussolini was afraid of losing his share of the spoils of war. This back-stabbing was condemned openly even by the Pope.

So to emphasize the “fact” (?) that Italian soldiers were unwilling participants in a war that they didn’t like, the film had gone to extremes in showing their love of “life” and “fun”, making them appear as if they were all playboys, drunkards and fools. They were always resting on the beach, and singing opera loudly - even when they were supposed to be on duty. In the film, Corelli told the German officer that Italians didn’t want any war, and they were good only in “singing, eating and making love”. Unfortunately, that had the effect of reinforcing the prejudiced view that was already commonly held by both Italy’s allies and enemies at that time – that Italian soldiers had no heart for battle and tended to run at the first opportunity.

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You also need to remember that Italy was on the winning side of WW1. Germany was fighting for revenge or whatever for the perceived injustices done to them in the Paris Peace Treaty.. The Italians didn't have any of those feelings as they had actually been one of the countries imposing the injustices on Germany.

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