Mask of the Phantasm vs. Return of the Joker - Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker (2000) Discussion

[–] rosered1213 17 years ago

It's close but I'm going to have to go with Return, everything was just pefect in this movie. Mask was very good too but I like Return more.

"Either fire me, or get out of my chair."
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[–] Li-1 17 years ago

Mask of the Phantasm most definitely. For me, it's the most moving, romantic, and exciting Batman story in the DCAU.

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[–] Otaku-sempai 17 years ago

I'm going to say that BB:ROTJ is the technically superior film, but B:MOTP works better as a stand-alone story.

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[–] mario-cicalese2 17 years ago

Me too:)

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[–] blackheart981 17 years ago

MOTP for me. ROTJ, although good, felt like 2 hour special of Batman Beyond. MOTP, like one of you said, stands alone. The twists I thought were much better in MOTP as well.

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[–] kirill-e 17 years ago

ROTJ 1-st and MOTP VERY close 2-nd ( altho MOTP only comes so close because Joker was in it and his origins ( I LOVE Joker ) .. hate romance and there was too much of it in MOTP IMHO )

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] james_oblivion 17 years ago

Too close to call.

I will say this, though...the Joker in the ROTJ flashback is my favorite. Not only is he properly sadistic, with some of the best dialogue he's ever been given, but the character design is better than the one from BTAS and MOTP...and miles better than the redesign used on TNBA.

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[–] triem23 17 years ago

While I think the flashback scene in this is the most effective sequence in all of Batman or batman Beyond, I think MotP is a stronger movie. It's storyline is more stand-alone, and some of the changes made to the origins of Batman are stellar.

*spoiler for MotP*

Personally I love changing the origin of the costume. Rather than being reminded of being scared by bats as a child, Bruce is inspired by his beloved's reaction to bats as a grown woman--the woman who leaves him the next day when he was ready to turn aside from vigilantism for her.

In the Animated Series universe Bruce is reminding himself to not allow himself to get close to anyone every time he puts on the suit--and that's damn poignant.

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[–] comicstu 17 years ago

ROTJ. Better animation, better story, better exploration of the Batman/Joker dynamic, better psychological value, etc. MOTP, as much as I love it, relies too much on exposition to progress the story suffered from a very predictable identity for the 'mystery' villain, and some of the lines were just plain out of place. ROTJ is able to go overload on fast paced action scenes and yet still offer as much depth as MOTP.

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[–] Roddaz 17 years ago

Return of the Joker. Hamil was pure gold in this movie.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] ghoultown 17 years ago

As much as it seems like a spinoff, ROTJ is a lot more bacabre in how they represent the Joker. He had the least camp value out all his appearances in the shows, but then I've never actually seen Mad Love either.

But then again, old-fashioned mobsters always interested me... it's hard to say.

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[–] comicstu 17 years ago

Mad Love's Joker isn't nearly as dark, especially seeing as how his redesign during Volume 4's batch of episodes makes him look overly cartoony.

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[–] ghoultown 17 years ago

Gothca!

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[–] oddball_oddity-1 16 years ago

Yeah, but I gotta love that Harley made Batman laugh like Joker never did.

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[–] basement_jaxx86 16 years ago

Can't help, but situations are demanding and mostly put me to be in a very diplomatic position :) Same goes when it comes to making a comparison between these two contemporary animated classics!

Would rate highly for both of them. Had Mask of the phantasm been released sometime around the same as Return of the Joker, there would have been a justifiable comparison. But Return of the joker most certainly has the superior technological advantage and it shows. Joker's earth-shattering laser attack towards the end is by far one of the most explosive action scene I have ever seen in the Animated genre. But the Mask of the phantasm's explosive finale was also equally cool for it's time.

I love both of them for their action sequences and the JOKER!! HAHAHA! he really gets crazy towards the end in both, but was much more alive and crazier in Mask of the Phantasm!!

They've been set in different times and successfully bring to life Bruce Wayne's character and his motive to bring down the bad guys. He might be a bit old in this one but his role as always is super-eminent. Terry McGuiness fits in perfectly.

Kudos to the entire animation team at warner bros. Their work & creativity in the animated arena is unrivalled.

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[–] highlord_leader_apocalypse 17 years ago

Mask of the Phantasm

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[–] Mononk-Jo 17 years ago

Mask of the Phantasm too, but they are both my favorites Batman movies!

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[–] ZAROVE 16 years ago

I actually hated Return Of THe Joker, and prefer Mask Of The Phantasm.

Actually, Even though the Joker came back ( With no explanaiton fo how) his Death in Phantasm made more sence storywise than his Reappearance did in Returns.

Just a thought, anyway.

But Phantsasm was a stornger, better made story and a better crafted script.

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[–] comicstu 16 years ago

No explanation? Apparently you didn't watch the movie.

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[–] PanteraFan4 16 years ago

i like both a lot. i found it stange that MOTP didn't get a PG-13 Rating. i mean there was blood and a lot of violence. plus the whole story was very mature as far as gangs and murder. then there's the love stry between bruce and andi: it was practically obvious that they had sex after they talked about her father and the phantasm and then the fade to the next day. and of course the joker was at his most sinister and evil up to that point of the Batman Animated franshise. all this is why MOTP is probobly considered the best of the animie films from the Batman series.

i also enjoyed ROTJ very much (The uncut version). im not a huge fan of the Batman Beyond series but this was exelent. and also worthy of the PG-13 rating i guess. if just for the flashback scene of how Joker and harley died and the whole child abuse and murder thing.

but overall i think i like MOTP the best.

RIP:
Heath Ledger - 1979-2008
'You'll be missed'

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[–] ZAROVE 16 years ago

ComicStu, when I said "No explanation fo how", I mean, pos "Mask of THe Phantasm".

If the Mask Of THe Phantasm is seen as a completley stand alone film, without reference to the rest of the Animated series, the Implicaiton, seieng Andi alone on a ship at the end, is that she had killed the last of her fathers killers, and had comleted her revenge.

On that note, it is unlikely that she'd leave and not finish off the Joker, since she was completley obsessed with meeting ut revenge for the death of her father.

Thus, the Joker turnign uo alive in Post Phantasm works is a bit...well, unexplained.

If he lived through this, and so did Andi, why did sh emake no further attemtos on his life? He as int he news a lot, so she knew he was alive and well.

We know he didn't kill her and escape, so, again, why didnt she return to finish him off?

I suppsoe an Ad Hoc explanaiton of her giving up vengence and the Joker thinkign he'd killed her may suffice, but as it isnow its just not somethign that sits evenly with te olot.

It was clar int he final confrontation that one or the other as suppose to die.

So the Jokers continued life after the Mask Of THe Phantasm is a bit of a puzzle.

I didn't, of ocurse, mean his return in "Return Of The Joker" Via that plot devise used.

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[–] comicstu 16 years ago

But MOTP definitely was linked to the animated series through continuity, especially seeing as how it is referenced in 'Beware the Creeper'. Joker couldn't have died in MOTP, and even though it seems implied, the fact that he appears later in B:TAS, TNBA, and JL, means that he definitely did not die at the end of the movie. That sort of irks me too, but I think the blame should be put on MOTP, and not what came after, because it seems pretty clear that the writers had always intended for him to return.

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[–] mariano_yuba 16 years ago

You could say she quit...BUT she was there to kill Terry's parents in Epilogue.
Even if she realized killing was wrong then, she probably didn't give it a second thought till then.
O well, maybe she just didn't wanna mess with the Joker. There's a reason many nutcases could kill him but they don't even try.

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[–] night_wolf873 13 years ago

Well I liked them both, but I have to side with Return of Joker. It was just well done and well paced. Joker was just amazing in this movie. MOTP can get slow at times.

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[–] v1cious 13 years ago

My new favorite animated Batman is "Under the Red Hood". That was a fantastic movie.

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[–] oddball_oddity-1 16 years ago

RotJ has great scenes, great moments of dialogue... however, MotP was a far more moving story and felt complete. MotP was fully fleshed out, whereas RotJ felt it relied more on following the series. There's nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't help it to be a stand alone work.

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[–] Caim 15 years ago

Mask of the Phantasm!

What we think, we become.

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[–] Mr-Awesome 15 years ago

This is really hard. Both are excellent movies and both but the four burton/schumacher batfilms to shame. In the end I guess I'll go with Mask of the Phantasm. The ending really got me choked up.

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[–] albeus51 15 years ago

As some already mentioned, ROTJ seems like an action packed extended episode. However Mask of the Phantasm has much more of a cinematic feel. ROTJ does a fantastic job with an alternate past/future for Tim Drake, and its always great to see Harley get some quality domestic time with her puddin'. But in terms of voice acting, plot, and sheer drama I must bow in omage to Mask of the Phantasm.

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[–] brian_32165 15 years ago

i agree. MOTP was better simply because it was more cinematic and if any of you remember, it actually did come out in theaters, unlike ROTJ and all the other batman animated movies. thats one of the reasons it has the love story, added in with the action and suspense. the producers were going for a more theatrical approach for this film.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] tintinrulz 14 years ago

Mask of the Phantasm for me. I'm more familiar with the Batman: Animated Series than the Batman Beyond series. I grew up with the B:AS and treasured it. It has a bit better story. The flashback scene in Return of the Joker is chilling and brilliant but that's the only part I go 'wow' over. The rest is quite good, just a bit alien to me (and much of the background music is incredibly generic and insipid, a real pity).

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[–] GreenGoblinsOckVenom86 14 years ago

I'll have to go with Mask of the Phantasm. It just seems weird to have the Joker come back through a device in Robin's head.

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[–] Wolf1880 14 years ago

i'd have to say they are equally good in different ways...I think that Return of The Joker is the Mask of The Phantasm only of the "Batman Beyond era"

i think the rank would go as follows from best to worst
-Batman: Mask of The Phantasm (Since it was the first and if not for it more than likely wouldn't have any the others)
-Batman Beyond: Return of The Joker (Since it IS a very close second.)
-Batman & Mr.Freeze: Sub-Zero (Since it's really not bad for a Direct to DVD Movie)
-Batman: Mystery of The Batwoman (Since it's the last DCAU movie in associated with Bruce Timm's universe)

for the live-action movies? i would say from best to worst...
-Batman Begins
-The Dark Knight
-Batman
-Batman Returns
-Batman (1966)
-Batman Forever
-Batman & Robin

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] Raiden_OC 14 years ago

Can I say I love them both Equally??? I Just feel you really can not compare these two is due to the fact that the story lines are both awesome in their own way I mean one is in the Future and the Other is supposed to be the Present times of that timeline of Mask of the Phantasm.

I am the HNIC!

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[–] Wolf1880 14 years ago

Can I say I love them both Equally???

sure. why not?? when people try compare the Batman movies and say "this one is better than that one but that one is better than the next one" Alot of times I tell em that they are just equally as good, just in their own ways and different.

Fact of the matter is I'm sick of everyone trying to say "this is the best batman movie............"

It's like the James Bond movies. The first one may be Dr.No and the rest may be sequels to Dr.No. They're still all stand alone films though. same with all the Batman films. You can pretty much watch them in any order and rank them in any order you want

the only 2 pairs of Batman films that really connect are Batman Begins with The Dark Knight and MAYBE Burtons Batman with Batman Returns

You can rank all The Batman films however you like em. You don't need to ask anyone if it's ok to like them equally. This is why i'm so sick of hearing people argue over "Burton's is better than Nolan's" or "Nolan's is better than Burton's". It should be up to the viewer instead of some big half-baked arguement until someone wins and has their way."

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[–] Monkey-D-Luffy 14 years ago

Mask of the Phantasm

Tiocfaidh ár Lá!

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] 14 years ago

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