Appalled at German Response


To quote the movie, "We all had this idea of ruthless German efficiency". So did I before I saw this film.
While watching this film, I thought "WTF ARE YOU THINKING!? DO YOU HAVE ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT KNOWLEDGE/EXPERIENCE!?"

This was the stupidest, most inane, baffling, and appalling attempt at conducting negotiations and rescue attempts I have EVER seen. Ever thing that could wrong went go wrong. Arming a bunch of gorillas with shotguns would have produced better results. Was there a contract out on these athletes or something because it almost seemed that the Germans wanted them dead. The film made it clear that many officials cared more about the games continuation then the safety of the hostages

Now, that I have that out of my system, I first want to explain that I have no idea of the quality of German's law enforcement/armed forces at the present time. Also, if some one could explain how Germany "being a Federal State" affected the deployment of sufficient armed forces (the film on mentioned this and did not explain it).

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I haven't seen the film yet so I can only answer your questions on a general basis.
I believe that the quality of Germany's law enforcement is as good (or as bad in fact) as it is in most countries within the Western civilization. The quality of armed forces is quite bad, or at least it was in the 1970 (basically from after the Second World War until the early 1990). After World War II Germany was banned from having a 'professional' army as you might find e.g. in the USA because the Allied Forces decided that they wanted to keep the armed forces at the very minimum to outrule any threats (i.e. another war). Although Germany was in itself independent the country was still split in four 'regions', the north was 'looked after' by England, the West by France, the South by the US and the East by Russia. The Russians of course took their 'responsibilty' a bit too serious by building a wall across Berlin and founding another seperate country, East Germany. In (as far as I recall) 1991, Germany was given its entire power back by the Allied Forces - although I'm not sure if Germany would now be entitled to have 'proper' armed forces.
Coming back to your question, Germany did have law enforcement knowledge and limited armed forces although basically they might not have been entitled to use them to their full potential so there was no room for the concept of 'ruthless German efficiency'. The Olympic Games took place in Munich (in Southern Germany) and, as I have outlined above, in that part of Germany American forces were present at the time. All over the south, there were US army basis and I suppose, due to their presence, they definitely had some sort of influence how the whole disaster was delt with. Anyway, Germany certainly did not have enough armed forces to employ (although I'm not sure how exactly that relates to it 'being a Federal State' - this probably links back to the influence the Allied Forces had on Germany at the time. The network of the individual 'states' in Germany, e.g. Bavaria, Northrhine-Wesfalia, etc. is very different to that of the US. Some areas, e.g the education system can be different (although this is only true on some levels) but the law itself is the same for the whole of Germany (you couldn't for example, like in the US, have one 'state' where prostitution is legal and another one where it is not.)
I hope this answers your questions at least on some level, reply if it doesn't ;)

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German military forces ("Bundeswehr") are by law not allowed to participate in any armed action in Germany (except, of course, during war times - which will hopefully never be the case). Some exceptions exist, e.g. shooting a hijacked airplane, but this has to be approved by civilian authorities.

The authorities in charge in 1972 was the Bavarian respectively the Munich Police that was simply not able and not prepared for events of this kind at the time. E.g., there were not enough policemen compared to the number of terrorists, the police force had no skilled snipers and so on, as it can be seen in the movie.

The 1972 tragedy and terrorist activities in Germany that increased in the 70s finally led to the formation of special forces, such as the GSG9 that become famous for rescuing the hostages in a Lufthansa airplane in Somalia 1977.

Regards from Munich



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Correct, except that there were legal instruments such as "Gesetzesnotstand" ("state of legal emergency") and "Amtshilfe" ("official assistance") in place that allowed to cut through the red tape in the case of an exceptional emergency -- as this clearly was. This is borne out by the fact that, even though the Munich city police was nominally responsible, they were accessing resources such as helicopters from the federal police, and the Fuerstenfeldbruck airport from the military (and I assume that the APCs also belonged to the federal police).

So, in short, the catastrophic outcome of the hostage situation was NOT the result of legal red tape.

How come the film hints otherwise? Beats me, but I'd guess the film makers' motivation is either political (i. e. they are political "my-way-or-the-highway" hawks), or they wanted to go for some extra melodramatic effect (the old "doesn't worry about legal red tape but gets the job done"-routine --hey, it does wonders for cop movies). Or maybe they just don't like Germans (hard to imagine, I know, but I guess it takes all sorts ...).

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Arthur Cohn, the producer, is a Swiss Jew and I suppose that -although rather subtly - shines through. I have now finally watched it and I have to say that I am absolutely appaled by the way the situation was handled. Looked more like a bunch of clowns than police and intelligent forces to me. Another black chapter in German History...

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It's too bad, really, that the technology to teleport all the little gobshites in this forum back in time and space doesn't exist; I'd just love to see them take on the Black September commando live and direct at Fuerstenfeldbruck airport back in 1972, and not just by acerbic comments via the internet, a quarter of a century later and a continent away ...

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One more thing you have to keep in mind is that this is a documentary movie where the producer tried to recreate the situation as well as he could. This is NOT a Hollywood movie like "Navy Seals" where the only purpose of the movie is to show a bunch of super-heroes making funny comments when they snipe the "villains".

So if you see a local police force - which normally makes sure you pay your speeding tickets - take on a heavily armed terrorist group then one may imagine that they are swamped with the situation.

As the previous comments said, this was in 1972 and there was nothing like a professional negotiator who had been trained in dealing with terrorists.

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This was a very complex and volatile situation. Dealing with islamic extemists always is. I have served in the middle east and I can honestly say those who are committed to the cause of terror believe they are doing Gods work and that death will only speed them on their way to paradise.
The only way to negotiate with these people was demonstrated by the SAS during the Iranian embassy incident in London 1980. That is efficiency.

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The only way to negotiate with these people was demonstrated by the SAS during the Iranian embassy incident in London 1980. That is efficiency.


As much as I hate to say it, I'm afraid you're right about that. There is simply no reasoning with a fanatic.

Although I am appalled by the German responses as well, I can at least see why a government would act in the interests of its own nation, first and foremost. It was indicated at the end of the film that the release of the surviving terrorists was a collusion in order to prevent future terrorist acts in Germany. If this is true, it is a horrible but comprehensible course of self-preservation. Although you know what they say about making deals with the Devil...with things the way they are now, I wonder how far that kind of purchased goodwill would really get them.

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I'm sorry, but I'm unfamiliar with the Iranian embassy incident in London 1980. Could you elaborate or offer a link to a credible account of it?

Thanks

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

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Some search results:

http://www.specialoperations.com/Counterterrorism/nimrod.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/5/newsid_2510000/2510873.stm

22 SAS can be seen as worldwide mother of counter-terrorist units. Actually it is a force for tactical military operations. Its deployments in Malaya, Oman, Jemen and Northern Ireland provided a lot of experience in dealing with irregulars, partisans, rebels and terrorists - in general with all forces abandoning the established rules of regular warfare.
The SAS had a strong influence on training the German GSG 9 (and a lot more special ops in the world I'm sure...). Beckwith, founder of the US military equivalent to SAS, could fall back on his experience and contacts made with SAS during his service as a member of that unit in the 60s in the jungle of Malaya.

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Thanks for the links. And I must agree, the force used was the right course of action.

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

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I think you found the answer for the Palestine-Israeli issue. There's no Palestine!, It's all Israel!, we should mark those muslims that live in "not-Palestine" and give them a "special bath".

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To quote the movie, "We all had this idea of ruthless German efficiency". So did I before I saw this film.
While watching this film, I thought "WTF ARE YOU THINKING!? DO YOU HAVE ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT KNOWLEDGE/EXPERIENCE!?"
I had the same reaction. But we saw the same pathetic detached indifference from everyone. The TV news coverage, broadcasting live video that eliminated any possibility of a successful surprise rescue raid. The unbelievable incompetence of law enforcement. The Olympics grinding along with barely a pause, as if nothing out of place had happened. The German government freeing the captured terrorists a few weeks later. Were the Germans and Olympic people all so intent on their own little tasks that they had no vision that their work was useless or counterproductive or harmful? This wasn't a story of evil versus good; it was a story of evil versus witless, indifferent bureaucracy.

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Judging by the US govts wholly inadequate response to Hurricane Katrina, i'd say that no govt can be prepared for every situation.

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It's fair to note there's a general problem with government/bureaucratic ineptitude, but the Katrina situation is in no way parallel to the Munich massacre. Katrina was a huge event, and the response involved the transportation and coordination of vast amounts of personnel and materiel, so the process is inherently clunky to jump-start. Munich was a pinpoint event, and should be handled by an existing, well-trained military or police team. If you step back and look at the totality of the incident, from before it happened until the bloody culmination and the subsequent German release of the terrorists, you see a level of hostile incompetence and self-serving indifference that effectively amounts to complicity.

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Nice said from an armchair of someone totally unfamiliar with the situation on the ground who believes a documentary will give him an idea of the atmosphere and political background.

But hey, what do you expect from someone who shrugs off negligent homicide of hundreds of people that was exacerbated by sabotaging experienced help forces. The hostile incompetence and self-serving indifference can very much be seen in the Katrina effort.

Munich, by the way, was not a pinpoint even except for people who believe a TV set is the entire world. Munich happened in front of the background of East-/West-German relations, German-Israeli-relations, German authority's first serious challenges as authority a few years earlier and the rise in leftist terrorism.

You'd do yourself a service if instead of judging others, you'd first try to judge how much you actually know about the country you talk about. In your case, the incompetence of German authorities is dwarfed by your incompetence on the topic at hand.

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I am just putting this out there for discussion and I am not trying to blame all Germans.
Could it be perhaps, that some Germans weren't willing to risk their own lives to save Jews? After all they did not seem to like them very much only 27 years before this event. Perhaps the holocaust total is really 6,000,011.

f.

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The reason the German response was so poor is because they were in on the entire thing! The fact that the games continued and athletes were sunning themselves within sight of the terrorists is just proof of how anti-Semitic the majority of the world was and is. This was a wonderful film!

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Complete rubbish!!! The Germans 'were in on the entire thing'? By making your great 'anti-Semitic' claim you show how prejudiced you actually are, a crime you're accusing 'the majority of the world' of!!!

It is a wonderful film but not for portraying the views you interpreted into it. It was just in a British poll of the greatest documentaries, exactly because it kept a balance and attempted to show what actually happened without making such exaggerated and sweeping claims as you made in your post!

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I don't think so, since many actually risked their lives, sometimes in very silly ways. Hans-Dietrich Genscher (the future foreign minister of Germany), for instance, actually went into the room where the hostages were kept, risking being taken as a very high-profile hostage himself. Your post is just very silly. You forget that no Germans were actually involved in the hostage taking. They failed to deal with it properly. Just as well you could accuse those in the American government and the CIA who were in possession of intelligence showing that attacks like those of 9/11 were very likely to happen but failed to act properly, as wanting the deaths of the victims of these attacks.

Even if you just wanted to start a discussion, this is a very clumsy way of doing it.

Just accept that this was not a late addition to the Holocaust numbers but an abysmal failure by those in charge of handling this tragedy!

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What you miss is that first and foremost, it was EAST German TV which continued to shoot, with the explicit intent to sabotage West German efforts and make them look like morons.

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I haven't watched the movie yet, but because of the increasing reports about that event in Munich 1972 regarding the upcoming movie by Spielberg I came by to this movie webpage.
As was written in User Comments, the Munich desaster was a watershed in counter-terrorist politics. AFTER it world-wide a lot of special operation forces, embedded in police or military structures, where formed.
To help you understand the complex and difficult situation let me explicate:
After WW II Germany was parted into three areas, the east became mainly a part of Poland, which territory was shifted westward by demand of Stalin's Soviet Union, which gained the former eastern polish lands. The remaining area was allocated to the for allied victors. The central part became the 'Soviet Sector', Northern Germany became british, the French took the southwest and the U.S. the southeast of West Germany. 1949 the Federal Republic of Germany was founded out of the three sectors of the west allies, as reaction to that the Soviets created the German Democratic Republic, a typical communist satellite regime like all the other european countries under the soviet scope.
Because of the enormous malpractrice of law enforcement during the Nazi-period the creators of the West German constitution wanted to make sure, that never again law enforcement gets under control of one political power. During 'Third Reich' e.g. the criminal police was centralised, and an instrument under control of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (Reich Central Security Office) commanded by SS-Leader Heinrich Himmler. The West-Germans put regular police and the State Offices for the Protection of the Constitution under authority of the particular states (West Germany as a federal republic consisted of 11 states, nowadays its 16). The only federal police force was the Bundesgrenzschutz (Federal Border Protection), which was a para-military organisation because of the lack of a regular army until 1955. In that year, as an instrument of further west integration, the military forces of Germany - Bundeswehr - were formed. Even to protect military forces from misuse in interior affairs it is still not allowed to use them as police support!
As most of the democratic states, at the end of the 1960s West Germany was confronted with political riots, primarily initiated by left wing students (e.g. anti-Vietnam war protests). There is not enough space to list all the events who influented and enforced left wing radical movements in western europe and middle east (and I'm not into it that much...). You may mind the Six Day War, the occupation of Hungary by Warsaw Pact troops etc.
Several organisations occured starting terroristic operations. In West Germany, extreme left wing organisations where strongly supported by East Germany, as the terrorist group RAF - Rote Armee Fraktion (Red Army Faction), the most prominent in Germany, was, too. They started with setting a warehouse on fire and ended with hijacking and killing, or straight assasinating several officials in politics, economics or authorities during the seventies.
This kind of violence against uninvolved and innocent people in context of political demands or a 'declaration of war' was absolutely new. Mind the synonyme for specific hostage behavior: "Stockholm syndrome", created in 1973. Until that time no one had extensive experience to deal with hostage-taking.
Just 21 days after the debacle on the FĂĽrstenfeldbruck airfield the Federal Interior Minister, Hans-Dietrich Genscher, iniated the formation of the first geman counter-terrorist unit, the GSG 9, a part of Bundesgrenzschutz (GSG means border patrol unit). Its first commander Oberstleutnant Ulrich Wegener reported operational readiness of two units with each six squads in April 1973.
If I may quote wikipedia.org:
>Many other counterterrorist units were modelled after the GSG-9.<
The most spectacular mission of the GSG 9 was the 'Operation Feuerzauber'.
On October 13th, 1977, Lufthansa Flight LH 181 (a Boeing 737 with 86 passengers and 5 crew on board) on the way from Palma de Mallorca to Frankfurt/Main was hijacked by four palestinian terrorists, two women among them. Their aim was to get four german and two turkish top-terrorists discharged, further they demanded 15 million USD. During the odyssey above the Mediterranean Sea and Middle-East they killed the aircraft captain. Eventually on the airfield of Mogadishu Airport the GSG 9 assaulted the plane. During the seven minutes operation three terrorists were killed, only one woman survived. Passengers and crew where not harmed, one officer got shot in the neck, but was not killed. Further involved where somalian Rangers to secure the airfield and two british SAS members, operating the stun grenades.
Getting back to the topic of law enforcement knowledge/experience I'd like to quote Col. Charlie Beckwith, founder and First Commanding Officer of DELTA FORCE (Beckwith, Delta Force, Avon Books, New York 2000, page 127/128):

>On one such day, typical in every respect - it was the middle of October 1977, work was unexpectedly interrupted. People began to talk about a place called Mogadishu. We looked it up. It was in Somalia. A German commercial airliner had been hijacked and flown there. The story came in slowly of the wire all day. Finally, a West German counterterrorist unit called GSG-9 (Grenzschutzgruppe 9) had stormed the plane, overwhelmed the terrorists, and released the passengers. In the Pentagon that day, the *beep* just hit the fan. I knew there was meeting going on in "the tank" of the JCS (Joint Chiefs of Staff) and lots of people kept running back and forth. I was sitting in my office. Tom Owen, who worked for Snippens, rushed in, "What do you know about GSG-9? A lot of people are asking questions." I didn't know much. SAS, yes, but not that much about the West Germans. I thought they were a police unit and not military. Owen asked, "Do you know what a 'flash-bang' is?"
"Of course."
"Whew! I'm glad, because they asked and I said if anyone in the building would know it was Charlie Beckwith. He wants to see you."
"Who?"
"General Rogers."
(...)
A flash-bang has certain concussive, nonlethal properties, which I described to General Rogers. I had first been introduced to them in England. As a matter of fact, the German assault force that had used them had gotten them from 22 SAS. When I finished, General Rogers told me of a note from the President. It had surfaced in the tank earlier in the day and asked, "Do we have the same capability as the West Germans?" Much discussion had ensued before it was decided we did not. (...)<

The first 'big thing' of DELTA was to free the hostages inside the US embassy in Teheran by airborne operation in April 1980. They failed and suffered casualties.

Probably this may indicate, that the authorities everywhere were suprised and unprepared.

1974 the Conference of Interior Ministers of the States decided to form their own SWAT units, the SEK - Spezialeinsatzkommandos.
But even the existence of well trained special police forces could not prevent the heavy crime acts committed by Red Army Faction members throughout the 70s.

The German Constitution (Grundgesetz) does not allow army deployment for any kind of aggression. The forces only may operate defensive. This very restrictive rule was attenuated during the past 15 years, considering the growing importance of reunified Germany. Meanwhile German forces are operating internationally, embedded in multi-national missions like KFOR, SFOR etc.
Because of the changed demands of military missions (e.g. asymmetric warfare), in 1997 the KSK - Kommando Spezialkräfte - was formed, which is capable of counter-terrorist operations.

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