Hi guys, i must say, one film i really liked is "Happy Together" one that really opened up my eyes. If you haven`t seen it yet, its a movie that depicts the last journey of a chinese couple that travel down to Buenos Aires to have a breeze of redemption in their relationship. They don`t get it, instead they break apart and prostitute themselves and make shitty jobs to survive. It`s starred by Tony Leung (a legendary actor in China) and Leslie Cheung, who was a real life gay actor and a popular singer. He killed himself the last year, after a breakup.
This movie never gives you reasons for you to like the characters, they spend the whole movie fighting, dont liking each other, denying each other sex, fighting, patching up, and lastly breaking up for good. It is a real mind blowing film. As i said, it opened up my eyes about homosexual men, as well as Plata quemada, the film and the book, did. The characters arent socially accepted stereotypes. They are human, people who have their pursuits in life, their dreams and their problems. In Happy Together, perhaps a glimps of the movie title, they bot want to have a normal relationship and love each other without problems. The sh*t they has to put up throughout their life makes them despise each other, but, though they give each other a hard time, they still need each other. The movie, brilliantly shot by Wong Kar Wai, takes us through a tour de force of this violent, redemptionless relationship.
In Plata Quemada, Nene and Angel meet each other in a bathroom, more specifically, the Constitucion train station bathroom. Being from, and living in, Argentina, i can tell you. Constitucion train station`s bathroom was used, and is, by homosexuals who are despised in society and look for each other in the city. Most of them are prostitutes (Taxi Boys, as they are called), as Angel was on the movie. Angel came from the turbulent 60`s Spain, and sure was a victim of the despise and relegation homosexuals got in there. Nene was from a wealthy, well accomodated family (same as his real life counterpart) but got despised by his father and family. I must tell you, in that particular time, in this country, either you were homosexual but you were disguised as a high military officer, a politician, or a "high" person in the church and were socially accepted (by denying the public of an inmediate showing of your true self) or you were relegated to antisocialism and being dead in life, as were Nene and Angel, serving as gunmen for politicians and police chiefs. Even in the underworld, they were despised for being homosexual.
And though neither of the four characters, who surely exist -and existed- in real life are morally perfect, good person stereotypes -nothing more distant-, we relate to them in their basics. They would give their lifes, and would take it out, too, for the ones they love. One image that stood with me in my long years of filmviewer, is watching the unamovable, cold blooded killer Angel, emotionally destroyed after seeing Nene and the hooker he`s with together.
And to the part of what you guys were discussing. I must say, Will and Jack -you know who i`m talking about-, as well as those queers in "Queer eye for the straight guy" are "safe" versions of the homosexual man. It`s like a tiger with rounded teeth and no claws: they´re harmless to the people that see and feel them, to the public opinion. They need to see homosexuals as people that could not stand on a fight, that are stupid and plain laughable. Because, the homosexual latent feelings on "straight" guys need to be separated from their personas. They need these f*cking stereotypes so they fell manñy. Why? Because they dont do those silly moves, dont talk loudly and unmanly, arent interior decorators or fashion business related, and therefore dont have a need for a c*ck being pulled into their ass*s. Because "those" dont qualify as "real men" they are completely separated one from another.
I say f*ck them, because all homosexuals arent that way and if they are, its their business. I have several homosexual friends who are very inteligent,have lives and dreams and arent the "funny, harmless guy". And as i see it the way i see it, there isn`t a one f*cking reason they shouldnt be this way. Sh^t, if even i like primarily women but feel attracted to men like Eduardo Noriega and Clive Owen -Damn my luck i didnt knew them or met somebody that looked like them-.
Take care everybody, see you around.
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Contrived_hectic
19 years ago
Dear aleborgobello16,
Though I agree with you in many points, I truly believe that “stereotypical” homosexuals are to some extent necessary to the (American) public. We needed to get homosexuals in to the mainstream popular culture, and the only way was to go with non-threatening people, but now I feel it has gone to far not because of what it’s done but because it has failed to represent the other more realistic side of people in general--not just their comical remarks and sexual relations--;homosexuality needs to be represented as a part of life; it is recently portrayed as homosexuality being a completely alien life-style. The American popular culture has miserably failed to include homosexuals that make mistakes, love, hate, kill or are just plain human; instead, pop culture has created static characters that just excel in one particular trait; as in the case of Jack the flaming-bitchy-homosexual with an untimely sense of humor. We need more movies and shows that depict characters that are in love--As in Plata quemada--and that it just happens that the characters are gay. I have begun to see several films and shows which have just included gay characters, and they have presented them as a gay character nothing special they are just like any other character, for example, in a very bad horror film which I recently watched; it mentions that the character is gay, and that he has a boyfriend, but he later gets killed by the demonic-doll (The Bride of Chucky) they never mention anything else--they actually made him a regular person; the same thing would have been done with a heterosexual character. Stereotypes are found in every movie or program; we see them in “Friends”, “The West Wing” and yes even PBS’ “Master Piece Theater”; the only problem is that these shows manage to eventually destroy the stereotypes, but “Will and Grace” (or most “gay” themed) does establish many stereotypes, and it does counter some of them, but it just creates so many that the messages to counter the stereotype get lost in a joke or are just completely ignored by the viewing public--Why? Because we want to keep homosexuals in a non-threatening, static and monotonous position.
p.s. Kudos, It takes a “real man”--I hate that term--to admit: “hey, that guy is good-looking”, though I would say that Leonardo Sbaraglia is much hotter than Clive Owen--he lacks that rugged Argentinean accent.
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helenerigaud
18 years ago
speaking of some exemples that shirk from the temptation of stereotyped non threatening, reassuring gay characters, the prison tv show "oz" comes to my mind,more specifically, the vicious sociopath chris keller.i think his portrayal illustrates what u mean by "homosexuals that mistakes, love, hate kill or are just plain human".i think we can safely say that he embodies the paragorn of the *beep* up, ambiguous(at best) anti-hero (more like, evil psycopath) that we still emphasize with against our better judgement because for all his despicable flaws, he's shown in love,in emotional turmoil, fighting for what he believes in. He actually shares some common traits with Nene: both are smooth, sociopathic amoral bisexuals; both appear quite confident and shameless about their sexuality while at the same time hate themselves for it (keller's gay killings and nene's aggressive blow job are both expressions of their self-loathing) Yet for all his calculating self- centerered preocupations keller is shown overcome by his destructive passion for his fellow inmate tobias beecher (ahh..the ill-matched, star couple of oz in all it's apocalyptic glory)which makes him completely lose his control and makes this character interesting regardless of the immorality of his actions; just like nene whose sole redeeming quality is his relationship with angel.Both relationships are completely irrational and passionate, develop in a hostile, violent invironment, mix tenderness with ruthless cruelty, both are on the brink of collapse yet ultimately hopelessly co-dependant.Nene and angel's love seems somewhat purer though;B/K is pretty nasty ...those two are hard to beat in the *beep* department. Oz was actually one of the first tv program to portray unapologetic brutal protagonists to whom the average audience couldn't possibly relate to but showed them in all their multi-layered immoral glory, trusting its audience's maturity.The sopranos and the brilliant six feet under followed and surpassed it.
Funny how TV budgets have allowed for greater daring creativity than the film industry over the last few years.
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B24
18 years ago
Interesting analysis, helene.
Apart from the truth and vibrancy of such representations of character, there are the questions of (a) dramatic worth in terms of art, (b) marketing concerns for any commercially viable medium, and (c) quality of the productions.
How do those stack up in your opinion in the examples you have provided?
My own take on Plata Quemada is based on the book from which it was adapted as well as the film itself. And that in turn is interlinked with historical origins of the story that imparted a whole new angle once I got into it. For example, both of the main characters in real life were bloodthirsty killers, and the more psychopathic of the two was the "Angel" one.
The fact that it was transformed cinematically into a love story (though rather a dark one), speaks volumes about where the author and his director wanted to go with the original material. By way of contrast, Brokeback Mountain was an unabashed love story -- though a tragic one replete with ambiguities -- from the beginning.
Thanks for your insights.
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bc_ashley
17 years ago
umm..What does " replete with ambiguities" mean?
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Stanley_L_Walker
17 years ago
BCA,
it means full of (replete with) a lack of clarity, of doubtful or uncertain meanings, unclear meanings (ambiguities)
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bc_ashley
17 years ago
And what makes Burnt Money stand out; What makes BBK stand out?
I just like to gain some insights from opinions of people who come from the same cultural background of the movie.
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B24
17 years ago
Good questions, bc.
As to the ambiguities in BBK, "replete" means that there are several, not just the big one about whether Jack was purposely killed or died in an accident.
For example, apart from buddying up in a summer and fall of herding sheep and becoming bedmates, what were the underlying motives and desires that drew these two men together? Also, what do you think the author/scriptwriters had in mind in terms of the respective characters of the two men? I am still not convinced that the element of pity we feel for them is resolved by the ending, other than to get out the hankie and wipe your eyes before the lights come on. A story like this needs greater development of character for the reader/viewer to identify with them and take away some deep understanding of them that was not obvious at the beginning.
By contrast, we have in Burnt Money a truly tragic story in the classical sense. That is, two lone psychopaths who we gradually learn to understand as heroic figures through their respective efforts to deal with a hopeless situation, ending in their mutual destruction. No sentimentality there, just a harsh conclusion that wipes away our simple pity and leaves us crying out for justice and retribution.
Good drama is never merely sentimental.
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chasing
17 years ago
I had craved a review of BBK from B24 ever since the film’s release. We have it now, with a comparison of it to Burnt Money to boot. I could not agree more. Thanks B24.
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B24
17 years ago
chasing:
I could say much more about Brokeback, but probably should save it for the message board appropriate to that film -- if I ever get around to it, that is. My opinions on both that one and Plata Quemada will not be universally welcome, because I base them on the actual filmed production together with other sources like (a) original text, (b) translations or subtitles, if applicable, (c) wrongheaded opinions by some publicists or reviewers, and/or (d) political context. Comparisons of one production to another can also be valuable.
In this case, I liked both films immensely, but for very different reasons. Both also have faults. Criticism cuts both ways. I receive many private messages which, to someone less thick-skinned than I, might be regarded as personally hurtful and the opposite of your kind remarks.
Got to love it.
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bc_ashley
17 years ago
Thank you B24.
"Good drama is never merely sentimental."
Wow that's quite insightful and sends me into thought. I've just watched some deleted scenes from Gosford Park with commentary of Robert Altman, and many of the reasons he gave for those deletions are the same: This scene is too sentimental.
As for BBK I think it's a more truthful adaptation of Annie Proulx's original short story, therefore the "ambiguities" of the original work are naturally sensed by us in the film. And the "ambiguities" are there because the writer had emphasises of her own: the rawness and cruelty of American west; the loneliness the violent emotions the guts-twisting losses that people living there experienced; the unresistable force of fate... And ambiguities emerge where she chose not to elaborate.
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B24
17 years ago
Briefly, so as not to give the impression of trying to usurp another film's attributes in discussing Plata Quemada (Burnt Money), I think we ought to consider a bit further how Brokeback Mountain differs in some direct comparisons.
First, Brokeback is definitely not "noir." Plata is noir from beginning to end. Brokeback is curiously enough a conventional love story when you get right down to it. Only the novelties of sunny homoerotic passion and its Western setting separate it from something like As The World Turns. Plata on the other hand is a story told entirely in the shadows, life outside the law, populated by grimy subjects whose only virtues lie hidden from view.
Second, Brokeback either as story or film cannot be understood except as a linear narrative. Plata on the other hand is a piece of fictionalized journalism similar in structure to Truman Capote's In Cold Blood. That is especially true of the book on which it is based.
Next, Brokeback is not entirely explicit; it employs tableau scenes using secondary characters to define Ennis and Jack's history. It reminds me curiously of Torch Song Trilogy as played out in Wyoming. Its symbols and conversations are commonplace in contrast to the heavy symbolism and steamy encounters of Plata. Nudity in the former, for example, consists of a couple of lads at play, while in the latter we come very close to NC-17.
I think Proulx as author is probably the superior stylist in this and her other short stories, but to the extent my knowledge of Spanish allows I think Piglia is the better and more objective reporter.
I could go on, but I think these are a few starting points of discussion and thought in response to bc ashley.
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AMovieTheatreGoer
17 years ago
I'm agree with almost all your opinions.
I hated "Will & Grace" because gayness is just a pretext to show absurd situations, I don't know why they didn't named it "Jack", who is omnipresent, I can't stand him (he is more nice as doctor in one episode of "Scrubs" - it's curious: this series, even if there are no explicit gay characters, is full of gay-feelings and same-sex kisses!!! Todd is an hidden gay bodybuilder and... J.D., you love Turk, accept it!)
Other series do their homeworks and show once a gay character, who disappears after the episode. Very boring.
Or there are characters who disappears in remakes: for example when "Fame" was made for tv, only one personage was excluded, guess who?
Curiously, in the two movies based on "The children hour", to the contrary, it happened that the most recent is open about the relationship between Martha and Karen, while in the older one the scandal is caused by a married man (not so unsettling, isn't it?).
I read very beautiful "The Celluloid Closet" which talks about that problem.
I like "Queer as folk UK" (while I can't stand the US version, a bad clone of it) because the protagonists are openly gay. My favorite is Stuart: he is a bastard, but genuine. He is selfish, but capable of great acts to help friends. Aidan Gillen made a great work, despite he is straight in real life.
Brockeback Mountain has an interesting theme, I read also the book before the movie came out, but their behaviour towards their wives and children is selfish and I can't be so supportive of the two men.
"Happy together" is a sad beautiful love story, a beautiful Asian movie. It's a tragedy that Leslie Cheung killed himself. I saw him also in other movie about an actor in acient China (I don't know the English title) and I think he was good. I appreciated that this movie shows at the start the love scene (on tv is always censured), so there are not doubts about their relationship.
Other two movies, I find very amusing: "Fuc. Amal" and "Sommersturm". Nice characters indeed. In both of them we can find a lot of stereotypes. (if you kiss a lesbian, you probably will take HIV - dykes love big breast and pornographic photos with male point of view - gay men always want to seduce straight men - and so on...)
After all, also in Plata Quemada, there are many stereotyped ideas about "what is a gay man"
- their boss asks to Nene if they are man and wife (tipical stereotype - the gangster certainly thinks two gay men are not too reliable, why in his mind they are weak like women)
- El Cuervo makes love with his girlfriend and thinks Nene watch him and wants partecipate (but in fact his is a strange behavior)
- Angel don't wants make love with his companion because of God, but has no problem to kill someone!!! So common between many "men of honor"...
- there are two man-woman explicit love scenes, while the relationship between the two boys is more velated, typical of many Spanish-French-Italian movies of this type, who knows why...
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aynka
16 years ago
I really hate the us version of queer as folk. I wish they would show an actual representation of a gay man. The main character in the show, brian is a ridiculous stereotype of a club queen and his witty remarks are horrifically unfunny. Also, he is supposed to be a successful ad man, but all of his ads are about sex, there's no creativity unlike don drapper from mad men. I wish that at least one of his ad campaigns involved some intelligence and creativity even if they copied a bad episode of mad men it would still be a huge improvement for his character.
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