What do you think will happen to bayliss?
Did Frank turn himin after all?
shareSpoiler
Erh, He's dead, I think, in a station house of ghosts.
MovieChat Forums > Homicide: The Movie (2000) Discussion > What do you think will happen to bayliss...
The name goes up on the board - I'd say that's case closed. And note that Frank and Tim are not in the Waterfront along with everyone else.
shareYes, the name of the guy that Bayliss murdered does goes for the bottom of the board in RED, to the main column but in BLUE ink. I don't understand what the BLUE ink means?? It was always in BLACK or RED Ink, but not BLUE!! I did see the BLUE ink used in Season 7 too but what does it mean?? Also, what did it mean for Bayliss??
shareBlue means cold case(from a previous year)...I don't know what it means pertaining to the Bayliss murder though.
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In SVU, Munch said that one of his old partners used to get caught up in his cases and eventually ended up eating his gun. I always assumed that he was talking about Tim, but I doubt Tim coulda done that in prison.
I think Munch was talking about Crossetti...he kills himself if I'm not mistaken....not sure which season though... share
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I think Crossetti was early to mid-season one not three.
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I'm certain that Frank did turn in Tim, because Pembleton's famous balck and white viewpoint as to right and wrong wouldn't allow him to do anything else. It had to be that way, and Bayliss knows this. The scene between the two of them is one of the finest I've ever seen; all the history and trouble between the partners is distilled down into one crystal clear moment, when Tim admits his crime, and Frank takes him in.
GOD I love this show!
VCH
I'm not so certain Frank turned Tim in at all. I think the whole point of the scene with them on the roof was to finally establish that the great Frank Pembleton didn't have an answer for once. Basicly, Frank reconciles and forgives a killer, as oppose to being all high and mighty and just brushing the subject off as a simple "Right vs. Wrong" issue. Thats why Tim went to Frank as oppose to just turning himself in. If Tim really thought he needed to go to jail then why wait around for Frank? He was thinking about killing himself anyway. I think he waited so he could reconcile with Frank, ask for his forgiveness and reconcile what he felt with his head. Bayliss asked Frank "Do you absolve me" and Frank says "I can't" to which Bayliss says "thats remarkable, I was certain you could". I take that as being Frank's inability to simply dismiss Bayliss as an evil murderer like he usually does with the bad guys he catches.
Also, I believe blue names on the board represent cold cases, and I know solved cases go up in black no matter what. The only other time blue was used on the show that I can remember was the Sloan case in Season 6 I think.
Lastly, I would think Mike Giardello would have mentioned something to Frank during their last conversation at the very end, something along the lines of "I cant believe Tim did so-and-so" as oppose to Frank just vaugely muttering "I caught me a few (bad guys) tonight".
Honestly, I have a hard time seeing Bayliss, the real central character of the entire series, going to jail off camera and with no closure whatsoever.
Bayliss asked Frank "Do you absolve me" and Frank says "I can't" to which Bayliss says "thats remarkable, I was certain you could"
Well, I think you got it half right there. Pembleton "absolved" Bayliss. He acted as a priest, forgiving the sinner. They clearly reconciled, and hugged each other. So he was absolved alright. The "I can't" stuff was regarding Pembleton turning Bayliss in, which Pembleton said he couldn't, and Bayliss was really disappointed.
We see them go in, something happens, we see Pembleton talking to Giardello jr later, stating "I caught me a couple today", and the case goes up from red to blue. If Pembleton actually turned him in, or if he advised Bayliss to talk to someone else is not important. Either way, Bayliss caught it, the case was closed. So, something must have happened on their way in, which the audience are not privileged to see, but we can see the concequences.
Lastly, I would think Mike Giardello would have mentioned something to Frank during their last conversation at the very end, something along the lines of "I cant believe Tim did so-and-so" as oppose to Frank just vaugely muttering "I caught me a few (bad guys) tonight".
Yeah I agree with this.
Its not so clear what happened to Bayliss. It could be that he did commit suicide and left a suicide note confessing to the murder along with the gun that he used to kill Ryland with which is what got the detectives to close the case. The writer's did this on purpose to have people debating. share
Blue means it's a previous year's case that is solved. That's explained throughout the series. I think it's mentioned again with the Clara Sloane case.
shareIt's quite simple really. You just have to stop reading false information and know your colors.
We all know what the names in red and black mean. Blue is (I cannot state in loud enough... IS) in fact a cold case.
Look at it this way. They're all detectives but they're also old friends. The way I see it the name being changed from red to blue tells me that although it is known that Bayliss killed Ryland the case will be immediately considered cold due to the fact that it will not be investigated by anyone in the squad.
"Blue is (I cannot state in loud enough... IS) in fact a cold case. "
You misspelled 'closed.' Blue, as mentioned earlier in this thread and throughout the series, even explicitly by Gee to Falsone, is for a case from a previous year that has been closed - not necessarily a conviction, but a suspect is prosecuted (just like black). It's not for old murders that were previously unknown, only old cases.
In general, unsolved / cold cases aren't listed on the board, or there'd be no room for new cases. Those that are listed, generally from the year prior, are kept in the bottom fifth of the board under the tape divider in red, as Ryland was at the start of the movie.
Also, Crosetti was Lewis' partner, not Munch's. And Tim was never officially partnered with Munch. No detective that we're shown in the series successfully goes through with shooting themselves to death. Crosetti drowns whilst intoxicated, and Felton's supposed suicide is revealed to be lies.
I actually always took it that Bayless "ate his gun" afterall. Let me explain why --
1.) When he was on the roof of the precinct speaking to Frank, he said that if Frank didn't take him in for the Ryland murder, he would "eat my gun."
2.) Someone (presumably Bayless) moved Ryland's name -- which was in blue -- higher up on the board and re-wrote it in black -- which means solved.
3.) When Gee arrived in "Purgatory" (the break room), there was a vacant chair ... Gee even asked whom it was for. Crosetti and Felton didn't really give him an answer, but they did confirm that it wasn't his son (Mike) ... Gee seemed to be worried how Mike was taking his death.
4.) Munch's statement from L&O: SVU about a former partner committing suicide.
So to wrap up, I think Frank refused to turn Bayless in, Bayless changed Ryland's name to black, then went home and shot himself. That's what I take away from the movie.
If you watch the Tara Sloan episode at the end the name in blue is changed to black when its solved. Writing it in blue is to signify its an open case thats over a year old Frank didn't turn him in.
shareIf you watch the Tara Sloan episode at the end the name in blue is changed to black when its solved. Writing it in blue is to signify its an open case thats over a year old Frank didn't turn him in.
It's amazing that someone can watch something and come away with facts that are 180 degrees from what took place. And the quoted poster is just one of many in this thread giving wrong information on this matter. I recently rewatched the sixth season episode Finnegan's Wake (the one cited by the poster, though IIRC the surname is spelled Slone). When the murder was solved, it went up in blue. Giardello explicitly tells Falsone that a a previously unsolved cold case goes up on the board in blue after it is solved. This is why it is indisputable that Pembleton turned Bayless in (plus his clear statement to Micheal Giardello that he caught two bad guys tonight). None of this is, or was intended to be, ambiguous. What happened to Bayless subsequently is left for the viewer's imagination.
Off topic, Finnegan's Wake would have been a very good episode had it not featured the always cringe inducing Falsone, who was poorly written and terribly acted by Jon Seda. Ironically, the episode contained a bravura turn by the great character actor Charles Durning as Finnegan. When Finnegan schooled Falsone on police work it was like Durning giving Seda acting lessons. share
Agreed, Charles Durning is always great whatever he's in, but he especially could kick Seda's ass as far as acting was concerned, to say nothing of being a likeable character.
shareOff topic, Finnegan's Wake would have been a very good episode had it not featured the always cringe inducing Falsone, who was poorly written and terribly acted by Jon Seda. Ironically, the episode contained a bravura turn by the great character actor Charles Durning as Finnegan. When Finnegan schooled Falsone on police work it was like Durning giving Seda acting lessons.
Falsone wasn't badly acted at all. In fact it was his character that brought life to the show which was getting kind of repetitive and boring. He was part of the reason season 6 was so good Now I get that how people don't like him because of how he behaved but that and acting has no relationship what so ever. Anybody that has any doubts about Seda's acting ability should watch the first episode of Oz.
Btw, Charles Durning was just plain average. All he was is a old man that kept bringing up the past and was somewhat racist and sexist. So cliche. share
Frank did not turn him in. Tim most likely killed himself as indicated by Munch in an L&O: SVU episode. When a case goes from red to blue, it is because their has been a break in the case. It does not necessarily mean the perp has been charged or even arrested. It could just mean the case is solved. In a season seven episode where an old homicide of an infant child is investigated, the detectives discover it was the child's mother who did it. That case is put up on the board in blue and Mike Gee asks Gee if he is going to charge the mother. Gee says that it is up to the prosecutor. The case is put up in blue and we don't know if the perp is ever charged.
shareWhen does Munch indicate Bayliss killed himself?
shareI just watched the movie for the 20th time over the weekend and for the 20th time I was frustrated by the ending. The fact it's still being discussed eight years after the fact just shows the power of HLOTS. If Frank did turn Tim in, could it be that Danvers would just refuse to prosecute? Or since Tim confessed, maybe he'd be given the most lenient sentence available. Or maybe he had to resign, forfeit his pension and be left to either kill himself or spend the rest of his life agonizing.
shareI hate to answer with a quote, but here it is, from Reservoir Dogs:
"Either he's alive or he's dead, or the cops got him... or they don't."
the point being, either Pembleton turned him in, or he didn't. Or Bayliss took his own life afterwards, or he didn't. We just don't know. The only thing we know is, that the case goes up on the board from red to blue, and that Pembleton said: "I caught me a couple today..." Take it for what you want, the interpretation is yours...
People who say "Great film, but..." and "really dated" and "so overrated" should die in severe pain
"The fact it's still being discussed eight years after the fact just shows the power of HLOTS."
Excellent point! This series was brilliantly written and marvelously played.
Also, you make some very good points about Tim's fate that I hadn't really considered, especially about Danvers. Great hypothesis.
Yes, that's the point of intelligent filmmaking. H:LOTS had intelligent scriptwriters, and a really dedicated crew. That's what's happening when you are not trying to dumb down the content. It still holds up as one of the gretest crime-dramas in tv-history.
The new design of the IMDb site sucks big time. Bring back the old design, now!
I don't think Bayliss kills himself, nor do I think he's turned in by Pembleton. I think he goes on with his life just like Munch did after he shot Gordon Pratt. Munch was not rigorously investigated (Bayliss was the sole investigator on the Pratt case) when Pratt was murdered, even though the entire squad pretty much assumed it was Munch. I think this was true for the Ryland case as well.
"In real life just as in Grand Opera, arias only make hopeless situations worse."
I would have to say that although Bayliss might not be arrested (I doubt he will be), he will kill himself. I say this because I feel as if Bayliss would do that after all this time. It seems like his character could go off that way.
Furthermore, the writers of Homicide end on a bleak note when they point out that one more chair is still waiting in the ghost part of the office. Why would they end on that note if they are not implying or hinting at something else? i.e. Bayliss killing himself.
True, it's just interpretations...
I'm not sure whats up for interpretation here in regards to Bayliss being turned in.
A case going Blue on the board means the case is closed. It turns blue instead of black because its a previous year's case. One of the episodes explicitly tells us this. There is no debate to be had in this regard. Blue means they solved the Ryland case. It being written in blue is literally the next thing they show after Bayliss begging Pembleton to turn him in.
In case that wasn't enough, Pembleton later says that he caught two bad guys that night.
Bayliss was 100% turned in for killing Ryland. That shouldn't be up for debate. They did everything but show Pembleton actually put him in jail.
Then there's the Munch comment that people are assuming relates to Bayliss. Munch said something along the lines of an old partner who blew his brains out.
Assuming that references Bayliss pretty much ignores how these detectives use the word Partner. They don't just casually throw it around to mean other detectives. They use it when they're talking about old partners. I can't for the life of me even remember a case Munch and Bayliss worked together, let alone where they were partners for any extended period of time. To take it as an absolute that Bayliss is dead is a little bit of a stretch, but at least this one has some plausibility.
The reason I'm writing all this isn't because I don't want there to be a discussion of Bayliss' fate. Its just I'd like to see a discussion more relevant to what was shown.
After being arrested for the Ryland murder, what would happen to Bayliss? Would he receive some leniency because Ryland was a unrepentant murderer? Would he be prosecuted harder for being a police office who straight up executed an unarmed man? These are the more interesting questions.
The question isn't that Bayliss didn't get caught, the question is, who turned him in?
And that question is still in the open, as we only see the consequences and not the action itself. Either Pembleton turned him in, or he didn't. Either Bayliss confessed by himself, or he didn't. Either he was prosecuted, or the boys in blue buried the case deep in the basement. We just don't know. And either Munch referred to Bayliss killing himself or he referred to someone else. We just don't know.
It's a case for abstract thoughts, holding a question "in suspense". Because, the question will never get resolved. It's like Schrödingers cat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dingers_Cat
Is the cat alive, or is it dead? Before we open the box, we don't know. But for the sake of argument, we have to think of the cat as both dead and alive, at the same time. In this instance in time, the cat has two non-exluding and parallell fates, it's both dead and alive, without either being right or wrong. It's not an either/or, it's both at the same time.
"The question isn't that Bayliss didn't get caught, the question is, who turned him in?"
No its not. I literally just watched it again to make sure. Bayliss hands Frank his badge. Frank says he now going to stay in and have dinner with the kids. Without handing the badge back, Frank and Bayliss start walking back inside together.
Immediately after this we see the name change on the board.
Later Pembleton says he caught two bad guys that night.
Everything else is completely up for debate, debate I encouraged at the bottom of my post. This part isn't.
And please don't reference Schrödinger's cat. The entire hypothesis is based on an equal chance at outcomes, life or death.
Here's a more apt comparison.
Have someone put a cat in a room.
Have a person stand next to the room.
If he wants to, give him the chance to have a net thrown on the cat by pressing a button.
At this point we'd still have no idea what happens to the cat, and your reference would be applicable.
However, if during a conversation later in the night, the person says that he caught a cat tonight, we know one of two things happened. He pressed the button and the cat is in the net or the writers were implying that Frank had some free time after Bayliss' confession and went on a Batman style vigilante spree just to catch one criminal to make his statement make sense.
Sorry I lost the metaphor, but saying Pembleton didn't turn him in is right up there with the Leonidas missed on purpose arguments I used to see. It goes directly against what we're shown and it doesn't make any sense.
I mean here's some spoilers for you:
*****Usual Suspects Spoilers*****
Kevin Spacey never actually says that he's Keyser Söze. All we know are the clues he's given throughout the movie and the detective assuming he is. But we're never explicitly told it. Does that mean someone else is Keyser Söze? No. Of course not.
At some point people creating movie's have to assume that viewer's can come to a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence shown. And that evidence here tells us Pembleton turned him in.
I have to assume the people arguing otherwise haven't seen the finale in a very long time, because having just watched it a couple times, there is literally no other conclusion a reasonable person could come to.
Here's another:
Did Frank walk across the street to the Waterfront and announce Tim's confession? Or did he just drive home and fall into his wife's arms? Does Professor Pembleton do all he can to aid Bayliss's defense?
Just who did Frank turn Tim over to? The Jason Priestly character? Or Gharty, who I don't think is present at the Waterfront (or is he?) Who rewrites Ryland's name in blue? I assume most viewers assume it's Bayliss, but why would he, the confessed killer, be allowed to do that?
I can't believe all these questions are open 10 years after the fact with no hope of them ever being answered.
My interpretation was that Tim was turned in by Frank - Franks quote of catching two bad guys that night and the name going to blue (case solved) being the reasons.
I'm not sure if Tim would've been shown any leniency. I reckon there would've been a huge outcry by the public if a detective was 'let off' with a lenient sentence for executing someone in cold blood.
Which is why I think there's a chance Tim took his own life before any trial, and the fourth chair at the card game was for him.
Munch's quote of a partner killing himself.... Could he be talking about Bayliss more as a partner in the pub they owned rather than as a Police partner (though they did work on a couple of cases iirc in the last season)???
I've seen the film once again, and I have a new theory, that actually opposes my earlier take on the events.
the whole thing starts when Bayliss reacts strangely to the name of Ryland being on the board. Pembelton picks up on Bayliss strange reaction. Then there's the scene later on, when Bayliss tells how much he loved working with him, and Pembletons immediate reaction is "Do you think a police did it?" (referring to the Giardello shooting). Then they discuss other events were police officers were supposedly involved in killings. Gordon Pratt, Luther Mahoney, but Ryland is not mentioned. The thing is, Pembleton picks this up, but he doesn't know what it is. Then there's the scene on the roof. Everything up to this moment has lead to Bayliss confessing to Pembleton, he has been giving leads all over the place.
But then, contrary to what I said earlier, the "I can't" is Pembleton not being able to "absolve" Bayliss. He can turn him in, but not forgive. Pembleton said earlier, in the car "Do you know what made me quit? The confessions. I just couldn't handle one more guy spilling all his guts, confessing to every single sin". So, that's where he stands. In the same way he couldn't work homicide after the events in "Fallen heroes", because of the mistrust and the lies, he can't absolve Bayliss for his crimes. Pembleton turns Bayliss in, and goes home to have dinner with his wife and kids. The name of Ryland goes up from red to blue, and as Lewis was the primary, I figure it was he who wrote the name on the board.
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I'm getting hooked by this scene. I think that everyone commenting Frank's behaviour does not take into Tim's mood. The scene begins with Tim's words: "I know how James feels. You gotta stop those that are gonna hurt the innocent." And then, when Frank made clear his opinion on this case:" ...there's a line between right and wrong." Tim asks him:" You have no sympathy for James, for what he's going through?" Tim can't find support in his former partner:"The righteous cop. Line's always been clear to you." (as it often happened before, he had to know Frank!), he continues to speak with increasing nervousness. He feels himself vulnerable, misunderstood, not heard, offended in the presence of this self-confident person, for whom there is only evil and good in their pure manifestations. And what did he do? He shoots himself in the foot! He made a confession! He didn't get any understanding, so as a very emotional person, he made it a non-logical step. He opens his pain to not a doctor, but his executioner! I think Tim didn't expect it to end like this:" Frank, if u absolve me ..." - "Absolve you?" - Frank, half crying and half laughing. "I can't." "Can't?" - here I definitely can see Tim's surprise and then his disappointment. Tim was looking for consolation, but got the condemnation. Poor idealist Tim Bayliss. I don't like Andre Braugher's character. He became so bc of his talented acting. But as a person ... he had his antipode -- Tim Bayliss and Tim lost. I think that all the show is about those two.
shareWeren't Munch and Bayliss partners in Season 7
shareYes they were and Munch told Tim that he would regret it, Munch thinks himself a curse because something bad happens to EVERY detective who partners with him: Russert, Kellerman, Bolander, you name them, he worked with them, and something happened to them and they ain't around anymore.
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