MovieChat Forums > Jason and the Argonauts (2000) Discussion > There is no way in the world Orpheus can...

There is no way in the world Orpheus can be black.

posted 14 years ago by hristomladenov
13 replies | jump to latest

Yeah, I know the filmmakers had to fill their black people quota and all but that's just ridiculous. People should really check their mythologies before making films based on them. I mean there were hundreds of other inaccuracies you can simply ignore for he sake of the movie being more fun but black Orpheus is just too much. "Okay, but we still need a black guy... Hey, I know! Black people are good at music, right? How about that musician guy, Orphuses? What? Yeah, I meant Orpheus!". Orpheus is of Thracian origins. And since I of Thracian origins myself I want a proper Thracian representation. That's like having a white guy play Othello. Come on. Yeah, "racist" me as much as you like.

[–] ricky_says_hi 14 years ago

well it is racist if you are complaining about a character's skin colour. the filmmakers really can't win in these situations as when there are black characters you get people complaining that they are only there to keep things PC but when there isn't any people complain about the lack of diversity. they also had white Brits and Americans playing most of the Greek characters and two Mexicans (i think) playing Castor and Pollux

There's something about flying a kite at night that's so unwholesome

[–] goldenguineapigs 13 years ago

Castor and Pollux are played by Omid Djalili, who is Iranian, and John Sharian, who I think is also middle-eastern, though I can't find anything definitely. IE not Mexican. :P

[–] magnet-dance 14 years ago

I don't think it's racist at all. Like you said, if some white guy played Othello people would scream bloody murder. There's nothing wrong with wanting a proper representation of your people.
As an indian, I would be a bit peeved if they had a white/black/whatever guy play a historical or mythological indian character.

Besides, stuffing a black guy within a scenario that realistically requires none is just tokenism. They didn't have much cultural diversity back in this ancient greek setting.

[–] goldenguineapigs 13 years ago

Really old post, but also really stupid, so - *ahem* http://www.patrickstewart.org/psn/playtitle.asp?playid=19 White guy playing Othello! ZOMG!

The idea that there were absolutely no black people in ancient Greece strikes me as rather silly. In case you haven't noticed, Greece is just a short hop across the Mediterranean from Africa. They quite definitely had contact - observe: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1021/525949993_d0214d16bb.jpg
It's not completely implausible that there could be a black person in ancient Greece. In case you weren't aware, they also didn't actually have centaurs and dragons, and Jason probably never existed. It's clearly not set in any real historical period.

Also, it's called 'colour-blind casting'. It means casting the best actor regardless of race. Personally, I liked Adrian Lester as Orpheus, and I really don't see the problem.

[–] Tharsos2099 13 years ago

I Have to agree withe the original poster here. This is not a story or Racial Diversity, it's a Mythic, theological story.

Orpheus was the son of the Thracian King and the Muse Calliope (AKA A goddess just in case you didnt know) Hence the reason there is no way he could have been a black man.

You are correct that there are no Dragons or Centaurs, But what you are forgetting is that these stories are stories of Faith, it's Theology. As for there not being a Jason, well, you are quite possibly wrong on that one. Modern Archiology has shown that there may very well have been a real Jason, a real Golden Fleece and an actual quest for it. not mix reality with Theology and what do you get?

Jason and the Argonautghs. or "The Argonaughtica"

Hollywood takes to many liberties with stories like these.

How about in the next movie about some part in Jesus's life they cast him as a black man, or an Israeli, instead of the white man that always plays him
(The Israeli would be a better casting thought cause you know, Jesus is from Israel, and not a white man)

[–] goldenguineapigs 13 years ago

*sighs* You should probably be aware, I'm a student of ancient history and classical literature, so unless you have a degree in the subject - which I doubt, seeing as you can't even spell 'archaeology' or 'Argonaut' - please don't try to educate me on classical mythology. I know Orpheus' backstory just fine, thank you.

He remains, however, a mythical character, and I changing his country of origin does not seem like a big deal to me - he was supposed to be, as you pointed out, a Thracian, and thus a 'barbarian'. Switching that to African seems perfectly reasonable - if anything it does a better job of communicating his otherness to today's audience.

I also find the idea that Jason might ever have been a real person extremely doubtful. You'll have to provide links to some serious archaeological studies to back that up, I'm afraid - people have in the past claimed to have found the grave of Agamemnon, amongst others, in exercises of wishful thinking.

As for the idea that Greek mythology is 'theology' or 'stories of Faith', that is not the right terminology at all. They are myths. They are stories. There is no one set version. The idea that you had to stick to the letter of the source material would have baffled the Greeks - the most famous Greek tragedies took more liberties than this film does.
These stories are not like the Bible. They're not sacred. Furthermore, referring to them as 'stories of Faith' would get the hackles of a good number of ancient history professors up - Greek religion had very little to do with 'faith'.

Really, if you're going to complain about 'historical accuracy' in this film, it made far more grievous errors than daring to cast a black man to play Orpheus. I'm surprised that no-one has pointed out the idiocy of having a recovering alcoholic in Ancient Greece.

Finally - seriously, making use of colour-blind casting down not make a film an exercise in racial diversity. Adrian Lester makes a perfectly good Orpheus. I like his performance very much. When people make such a big deal out of issues like this, it just sounds kind of racist.

[–] Tharsos2099 13 years ago

I do apologize for Grammatical errors, Grammar has never really been my strong suit and to be honest I didn't know the Grammar police scanned these pages or else I would have made a greater effort with it. I took Ancient History and and Classical Lit when I was in High School, so really you aren't impressing anyone with your statement, you only make yourself sound really condescending. You said you are a student, hence you are still learning, that in no way makes you an expert.

I do not in any way doubt that there were Black people in Ancient Greece, However, Orpheus being the son of a Thracian King and a Greek Muse, Orpheus would not be one of them. Taking this liberty would be like saying "Let get Harrison Ford to play Martin Luther King Jr."

Myth and Religion, you need to get your stories straight. Have you ever noticed that 95% of Myths regardless of the civilization they come from, involve Deities in one way, shape or form. That is because they are the Spiritual tales of those Ancient People, true that there are variations in the stories dependent on where the story is told, but the variations are usually minor alterations to satisfy the regional people. The Mythologies of a People are not just stories. Saying that Myths are Just stories is something Christians tell themselves to make make themselves feel better "Oh Myths are just stories, the Bible is the truth". That way they never have to admit to themselves that possibly, they are wrong, and Possibly there is more than one God. Take it from someone who follows and worships the Old Gods. This is fact. As the great student of Ancient History and Classical Literature that you are, this is something that you should already be aware of.

As for the possibility of there having been a quest that this story was based on, please see a documentary called "The Real Jason The Argonauts" Which aired a few years back on History Television and also on National Geographic channel. The "Golden Fleece" is in fact real, just not the Magic Blanket the story says it is, but it would be something of great value.

I am all for racial diversity in any story, when it is warranted. True that Adrian Lester did a fine job as Orpheus, but putting him in as the Token black man is even more Racist then my making a big fuss over it.

I assume that it took you about 2 months to formulate a response to my previous post, Cause I got a notification that you replied the moment you hit "Post Reply". Si I assume you did also, 2 months ago. SO please if it takes you another 2 months to reply to this post, please, in that time, educate yourself. Cause for someone who claims to be so smart, you sure come off as really, really stupid.

[–] goldenguineapigs 13 years ago

I don't get notifications on new comments - I didn't even know that was an option. It took me two months to reply because it took me two months to notice your comment was here. I checked back to see if anyone had replied for the first week or so, and no-one did, so after a while I started checking less frequently. I'm not a big imdb user so I'm not that familiar with the system here. :P

Also, when I said I'm studying classics, I meant university level, not high school. I can say from experience that high school classes do not go into much depth.

With regards to what you said in your post: if you think variations in classical mythology are only 'minor altercations', you are sorely mistaken. Compare Homer's version of the story of the death of Agamemnon to Aeschylus'. Or Euripides' story of Medea to the older versions of the legend. Regional versions of legends often outright contradicted each other. Check out some Pausanias, he's very informative when it comes to local traditions. There's also some discussion in there about whether or not mythology has any worth to it, interestingly.

I'm not saying the stories are spiritual or that they have nothing to do with religion, but they're not sacred in the sense of being unchangeable.

The exact nature of Greek religion and whether modern religious terminology can be applied to it is actually a matter of some debate.

'Taking this liberty would be like saying "Let get Harrison Ford to play Martin Luther King Jr." '

No, it's not like that at all, for two reasons:

1. Martin Luther King Jr. was a real person. Orpheus was not.

2. Casting a white actor to play a black civil rights activist would be horribly offensive - you can talk all you like about tokenism, but it's still preferable to white-washing, as far as I'm concerned.

That documentary does sound interesting, and I may check it out, but just so you know, documentaries do not count as valid sources. I've seen some serious BS posing as history.

Would the Greeks have been bothered by a black actor playing Orpheus? Probably. I think they'd have been much, /much/ more bothered by the fact that the Argonauts are farmers and stonemasons rather than nobility. As far as they were concerned, heroism was something you were born with.

I don't particularly mind if you want to object to the casting on the grounds of tokenism, that's fair enough - you may have a point - but don't object on the grounds that it's mythologically or historically innaccurate and then ignore much more pressing accuracy issues. After all, if they were going to be really accurate, surely they should have had an all-Greek cast for the Argonauts rather than a mix of Brits and Americans?

And as a final note - jsyk, I'm an atheist, and I believe the Bible is just stories as well. That doesn't mean I think it has no intellectual/spiritual value - I'm also a writer, and I think stories are very important. I just also think people are free to do what they like with them.

[–] tomtkh 12 years ago

Of all the complaints about the BAD things in this film (and there are MANY) this is the one that is the MOST ridiculous. Complaining about the casting of a black man. You might want to check yourself in the mirror to see if there's some RED in your NECK.

[–] largeys 12 years ago

Is no one struck by the irony that one of cinema's great classics is entitled "Black Orpheus" (1959) ? So Orpheus can be black in a movie.

As to a white playing Othello, versions with Laurence Olivier, Anthony Hopkins, and Orson Welles playing Othello are regularly shown with no controversy.

[–] Dream_Demon 11 years ago

Also, it should be pointed out that just because Orpheus' mother is a goddess and his father i white does not mean he'll be born white like his father. After all, the gods in Greek Mythology are shape-shifters and the "human" that we normally see them in aren't even their true forms, which aren't even human in he first place and are fatal for mortals to look upon. Just look what happened to Semele, the demigod mother of Dionysus; she saw Zeus' true form and paid for it with her life.

Since Orpheus' father knocked up an entity whose true form isn't even human, why would Orpheus being black be offensive. His mother is a goddess, not a human.

BTW, the mother of the Minotaur is also a goddess, so calling the Minotaur half-man, half-bull is inaccurate. The Minotaur is actually half-bull (fire-breathing bull, to be exact), half-god.

Welcome to my Nightmare- Freddy Krueger

[–] sekhmet999 8 years ago

The Minotaur's mother was a human queen who was cursed by a god into having an unnatural love for a bull, hence the Minotaur's beastual appearsnce.

Also, not all gods can change their form.

[–] Jes' Sayin' (5953) 4 years ago

Since the character's weapon of choice was a spear that he threw, I assumed it was meant as a humorous reference to Spearchucker in the MASH movie.