Is this a true story?


I watched this movie last night, and while I thought it was great, I couldn't help but notice how they made it look like it was a true story. Does anyone know for sure???

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As far as I know, it's a fictional story based on some of the facts.

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This is a true story.
In 1990 multi-party elections were held in the republics of former Yugoslavia. For the first time in the 20th century, a multi-party Parliament of elected representatives, members of the newly founded political parties, was established in Croatia.
Similar events took place in the other republics with the exception of the Serbia, where the Communist party, which had changed its name to the Socialist Party, remained in power.

A propaganda campaign, based on the detailed program of a Greater Serbia according to the ideals originating in the 19th century was started. It was claimed that the Serbs were in danger and that all Serbs should live in the same state. The Serbian population in Croatia, which made up 11 to 12% of the total Croatian population, was persistently intimidated which stories about the alleged threat to the Serbs. At the same time the Yugoslav People`s Army was transformed into a Serbian army. In collusion with the Serbian government, the Army armed the extremist Serbs in Croatia.

The newly established Croatian Parliament voted to abolish communist laws, simultaneously guaranteeing the same civil and ethnic rights to all the inhabitants of Croatia, folowing the example of the best democratic practices elsewhere .

The extremist part of the Serbs in Croatia, openly aided by Serbia, started arming themselves as early as the summer of 1990. The first road blocks were set up around the town of Knin. The Chetniks, as the exponents of the Greater-Serbian idea, presecuted the Croats and the peacable part of the Serbs, who refused to join them. The Government of the Republic of Croatia attemped to defuse the situation, but negotioations at the federal level did not yield any results because the Serbian side would not desist from its plans of conquest.

The Vukovar area also lived trough these dramatic events of enemy propaganda and the organisationing of the arming of the local Serbian population. Not only weapons, but Chetniks from Serbia arrived in villages with a majority Serbian population.
Borovo selo, in the immediate vicinity of Vukovar, became a Serbian stronghold. It was here that first two, and then 12 policeman were ambushed and killed, while many were wounded, in early May 1991. Those who were killed were massacred according to the worst Chetnik tradition.

This was the beginning of the armed war of conquest waged by Serbia against Croatia in the area of Vukovar and eastern Croatia. The enemy strategy was to occupy, by armed force, all the villages that were not defended, i.e. all the villages, to massacre and drive away the non-Serbian population, and to bring heavy weapons there, as well as mobilizing Chetniks and soldiers from Serbia.

Baranja fell in August 1991 and almost all the villages of the Vukovar district were occupied. At the same time Vukovar was bombarded with heavy artillery. Air raids followed, as well as attempts to break in with infantry. The first buildings to be demolished in Vukovar included the hospital, the Workers` Club, the Catholic church and the water tower. At the time there were already 300 wounded in the Vukovar hospital. Vukovar was entirely surrounded by Serbian forces. The enemy plan was to conquer Vukovar and than go on to fresh conquests.

In the area around Vukovar there were over 600 tanks and armoured carriers, as well as several thousand well-armed Chetniks and mobilized reservists. There were large numbers of all kinds of artillery weapons, the enemy had an abundance of ammunition, and there was no way to stop the Serbian warplanes.

On the other side, Vukovar was defended by several hundred Croatian Guardsmen and policemen, as well as about 1000 volunteers with no military experience. The defenders had modest weapons: semi-automatic and automatic guns, several machine guns and artillery guns, and some simple armour-piercing weapons. Weapons, food and medical supplies were brought in for a time through a narrow corridor through the maize fields near the villages of Marinci and Bogdanovci.

The imbalance of military power was such that, according to military theory, Serbia should have overrun Vukovar within a few days. However, the besiged town resisted the overwhelming military force for an almost full 3 months.

The inhabitans and defenders of Vukovar lived in the hell caused by hundreds of thousands of projectils devastating the town. Numerous tragic testimones of survivors, as well as daily reports of the Vukovar Radio, bear witness to incredible heroism and suffering of all those who stayed in Vukovar until the end. Civil life, as well as hospital work, took place in the cellars. The Vukovar hospital was the largest wartime clinic. There was a shortage of food and medical supplies. The dead could not be buried because of the constant shower of shells.

Attempts to break in with tanks and infantry were stopped by the defenders, who had organized themselves into a brigade during the fighting. The enormous motivation and inventiveness of the defenders, who were few in number and poorly equipped, made it possible for them to resist the intimidating military hardware and the far more numerous Serbian army. It was only when defenders were left out without single armourpiercing piece of ammunition, on 18th November 1991., that the agressor`s army entered the devastated town of Vukovar.

Data of military statistical character help to explain the contribution of Vukovar to the defense of Croatia and illustrate why Vukovar was in the focus of media attention from all over the world and why it is beeing studied as a special phenomenon by military therorists.

About a 1800 defenders took part in the defense of Vukovar while it was under siege. About 60% of these were citizens of Vukovar, while the rest were patriots from other parts of Croatia and from Bosnia and Herzegovina. A third of the defenders managed to break out of Vukovar in small groups, about 500-600 were killed, while the rest were imprisoned or wounded. Fascinating results were achieved in battle using the meagre weapons described above: over 300 tanks and armoured carries were destroyd, about 25 warplanes were shot down, while the number of dead Chetniks is estimated at 5000 - 7000, with 20000 - 30000 wounded.

By tying down the enormous Serbian military force in the Vukovar area for several months, the defenders of Vukovar gave Croatia precious time and space to create the army need for the survival of the state, and by destroying enormous amount of Serbian military potential, they weakened the aggressor military, politically and psychologically.

Occupying Vukovar, the Serbian army opened the second act of the Vukovar tragedy. Contrary to all international norms and agreements reached with the International Red Cross and Europian observers, when the Serbian army and the Chetniks entered Vukovar they perpetrated crimes. They tortured and committed atrocities against the civilian population, prisoners of war and the wounded. During the firs few days of occupation of Vukovar, several hunderd civilians and wounded were taken from the hospital and executed. The mass graves were discovered several months later by foreign journalists, and the findings were confirmed by international commissions. The world was shaken by pictures of Ovcara, where mass executions were carried out.

Over 5000 people were taken to numerous prison camps in Serbia, where they suffered extreme ill-treatment. Many never came back. Many of the camps have not been discovered yet, so it is still unknown how many people have disappeared forever.

Several thousand refugees from the Vukovar destrict are now scattered, in organized groups or individually, throughout Croatia and abroad.

Today Vukovar is in ruins. The destruction was disastrous. Homes have been rased to the ground or looted. Schools, hospitals, and valuable monuments of culture have been destroyed: the Eltz manor-house, the town hall, the grammar school, the churches and the monastery. It should be pointed out that all the monuments of culture were clearly marked according to international conventions. The natural environment has also been devastated. The trees lining the streets and growing in the parks have been cut down.

Everything that made Vukovar what it was has been destroyed. Today the town is an image of madness.

International forces took control over the occupied areas of Croatia. However, the expulsion of the non-Serbian population from the Vukovar area and ethnic cleansing continued. Thus the population of the town of Ilok was exiled and prosperous Croatian villages were devastated.

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[deleted]

Just so nobody gets confused, the character and story of the reporters is made up. The military actions shown in the movie did occur, including the atrocities. mario-bonacic's account seems pretty factual but he is obviously very biased.

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-mario-bonacic's account seems pretty factual but he is obviously very biased. -

well i'd like to see you non-biased when your homecountry is attacked, your women AND CHILDREN RAPED and left pregnant with signs around their necks saying "I'm carrying a serbian baby", your men TORTURED in prison camps, and then the whole world saying it's all your fault.
and let me tell you, as a woman, just the thought of the rapes that ocurred, let alone all the other crimes, makes me rethink my strong opinion about the death penalty. and i'm a peaceful person

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Ok...I'm Portuguese, raised in Ireland. I did 3 tours of duty with UN in Bosnia. Altough that doesn't qualify me as an expert, I think that, at least, it proves that I'm not biased. Since the dawn of ages, war has never been a pretty sight. People don't go to war because it's cute or fair. People go to war because of interests and passion. In this case, people went to war because of hatred. I've been witness to far too many conflicts. The only two where I saw such display of hatred were bosnia and Sierra Leone. There were no innocents in bosnia. Apart from the ones being killed, of course. Every side was doing his fair share of war crimes. Everybody is guilty of what happened. Even ourselves, to tell you the truth. There was a media conspiracy with the purpose of attributing all the blame to the serbs. Of course they were guilty. And so were the Croats. And the Muslims. And the Albanian. As I've said, nobody was innocent there. For years the Devil was free to walk those hills. And we were so feckin' powerless... A raped woman is a sad thing. A hundred of them makes you lose your grip with reality. Does it really matter her nacionality? Her ethnical group? Because, believe me, they were from all the groups. I've had people telling me to my face that the only camps were ran by the Serbs. How can I listen to that when I've seen the other camps? Nobody was innocent. I am not innocent. At the best, I was forced to let things happen which really shouldn't have happened. They shouldn't. Sure we tried to make a difference, at least most of us. I like to think we did. But when people in absolute pain and suffering tell me that I've should have gotten to their village 30 minutes earlier...when they point at the dead bodies and say sram ti bilo...they're right, the shame is on me. I accept part of that shame. I think everybody else should do the same. Accept the facts, the truth, and move on. Don't try to put the blame on any of the sides, for it belongs to all of them. Bring the war criminals to justice. All of them. Accept the collective guilt, for it's the only way to get closure.

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Can you believe that this is a first time ever - and living in Croatia all these long 14 years since the war started I had a chance to listen and read so much about it - that I read something a person from UN forces wrote about his experiences in ex-Yugoslavia. An this has nothing to do with censorship (it isn't so strong here as people can think, and I watch foreign TV, visit different web sites...) This is one the strongest testimonies and most fair things I've ever read about this war. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Just a few remarks.

Hartred isn't a genetical matter. It started at a point, and that's not far in the history. Europe just didnt bother to look for it.

Blaiming the Serbs may be reality when you came to Bosnia. But read most western-Europe articles while the war in Croatia started. Serbs were presented as if they were defending Yugoslavia from wild rebel pro-nazi tribes.

There is guilt for crimes on all sides. But why noone ever says that there is one side that started the war, and in fact it was not in spring 1991. when Yugoslav army attacked Slovenia, let alone few months later when war in Croatia started? It began few years before when legally elected governments (as free and legally as any government in communism could have been) were forced to withdraw because of riots that were organized by only one side.

And something ironic: Croatian soldiers are members of UN forces in Sierra Leone...

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i'm croatian and i couldn't agree more. we have to rebuild and move on.

i grew up in new york and i was about 5 or 6 years old when the war started. none of my relatives lived in the regions where the war actually took place and it's only now when i'm 20 years old that i'm learning more and more about the war.

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I`m from Croatia. And I don`t know if any reporters were killed. But I know that everything you saw was true. Some women were raped and left pregnant with signs around their necks saying "I'm carrying a serbian baby". It happened to some of my mothers friends, friend from Vukovar, but that time`s over. I don`t judge all serbians. They are also normal people, as a matter of fact I have one friend from serbia. But what their army and milosevic have done was reall horror. I`m just saying, don`t judge all people, never. Every man is man for him self and world for him self. He can be good or bad. only thing that i don`t understand why do people follow bad people? Why don`t they stand up and say NO!

A long, long time ago I can still remember how that music used to make me smile...

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I have several friends and relatives that are Serbes and not only didn't go to Serbia but voluntary accessed Croatian army, some were wounded in Vukovar, and survived the hell or Serbian prisoners camps. They understood what was Milosevic doing to his own and other countries. But, I can also understand that many people living in Serbia had no information, and still don't believe what was going on.

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[deleted]

Everyone was killing each other. That is a fact. Do you know ANY war in history that can't be described by this sentence? Maybe Americans didn't kill in their wars? Maybe nazis lost their wars because none of them was killed? Or how did Turks get quarter of Europe, by buying it - and then how did they lose it, by sweet words? How many colonies did their emperors leave without dead people on both sides? Someone did kill them, you know? Every war is a dirty thing, why is everybody trying to prove only war in Yugoslavia was a crime, and all the others were led by saints - at least the winners (those who wrote the history books).

But, when people try to say everyone is equally guilty, I'd like him to answer: how many Serbs have been killed in Serbia? In this or any other wars, by Croats, Bosnians or any other Slavic nation? How many times was Serbia population in air-raid shelters (before Americans came)? Serbs have their country, and noone (except Turks many centuries ago) denied them the right to have it. But Croats have only one homeland, and it is Croatia, Bosnians have only Bosnia, so what were Serbs doing there? How did it happen they were there to get killed? Do you condemn Polish and Czech people for refusing to peacefuly arange their relations with 3rd Reich? How many Germans did Polish kill in Germany?

And, finally, I don't know who you are, but you say you were there and saw everything. Why didn't you stay and help rebuilding your country, participate in its economic, political, moral recovery?

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Every man is man for him self and world for him self. He can be good or bad. only thing that i don`t understand why do people follow bad people? Why don`t they stand up and say NO!

Im sure many Serbs asked that question when Croats joined forces with nazi germany and killed 2 million of their people. When nationalism takes hold of a country and its combind with militarism it becomes a potent mix. Every country and every people have at one time or another have fallen to this vice. Germany, Serbia, Japan, Rwanda, France

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But, I can also understand that many people living in Serbia had no information, and still don't believe what was going on.

Ever been to Germany very few Germens really know what happen in ww2, I mean they have an idea. Japanese dont know about the horror of prisoner of war camps, Australians know verry little of the *beep* done to aboriginals. Do most americans know what there forien policies have done to the world? No. Very few citzens have little knowlegde of the evil of their own country's. Why would Serbia be an exception

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Everyone was killing each other. That is a fact. Do you know ANY war in history that can't be described by this sentence? Maybe Americans didn't kill in their wars? Maybe nazis lost their wars because none of them was killed? Or how did Turks get quarter of Europe, by buying it - and then how did they lose it, by sweet words? How many colonies did their emperors leave without dead people on both sides? Someone did kill them, you know? Every war is a dirty thing, why is everybody trying to prove only war in Yugoslavia was a crime, and all the others were led by saints - at least the winners (those who wrote the history books).

The only sentence i know which discribes this is all empires fall.


But, when people try to say everyone is equally guilty, I'd like him to answer: how many Serbs have been killed in Serbia? In this or any other wars, by Croats, Bosnians or any other Slavic nation? How many times was Serbia population in air-raid shelters (before Americans came)? Serbs have their country, and noone (except Turks many centuries ago) denied them the right to have it. But Croats have only one homeland, and it is Croatia, Bosnians have only Bosnia, so what were Serbs doing there? How did it happen they were there to get killed? Do you condemn Polish and Czech people for refusing to peacefuly arange their relations with 3rd Reich? How many Germans did Polish kill in Germany?


I think of Croatia and Bosnia as battles not wars. The feud which divides Yugoslavia has been going for hundereds of years and continues to this day. Violence has never ceased, the killing never stopped. From what i understand about Yugoslavia the violence and its perutratiors is cycle. The muslims started killing everybody in the 19th Century followed by the Croats in WW2 and then by the Serbs in the 90's. Now where back at the beginning of cycle with the muslims killing people in Kosovo.

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I'm always glad to read something about this topic written with cold blood and without prejudice. I only have to ask where did you get the information that 2 million Serbs have been killed by Croats? There have never been such a number of dead in this land, all Serbs victims (killed not only by Croats, but Germans and other all together) were far below this number (and I say, one single dead is too many and too tragic); if there were so many dead Serbs in WWII then Serbian population (it's not such a big nation) would be so reduced that they couldn't lead no more wars. But all nations in Yugoslavia during WWII didn't have so many dead, if you count pro-nazi and anti-nazi armies and civillians all together.

And there have never been wars among Slavic nations till 20th century. Moslems didn't kill anyone in 19th century. There have been many battles among Serbs and Croats against Turks from 14th century, but in 19th century they have been mostly over, Turks haven't been strong anymore, and Austria occupied Bosnia. Between 1840 and 1848 a big nationalist movement raised in Croatia trying to win some more independence from Hungary including use of Croatian language. This "nationalist" movement must not be understood in modern terms, it was not only peaceful (led by artists - composers, writers, painters) but also not limited to Croats - many Slovenians participated, and members of other nations in smaller number. Later during 19th century in Croatia grew Yugoslav idea, to make an union of all southern Slavic nations.

First act of violence was killing of Austrian archduke Franz Ferdinand, commited in Sarajevo by Serbian terrorists. As Austria lost the war nobody considered these assassins as terrorists, in fact they were given honors as Serbian heros. But the real problem appeared when Yougoslavia had been established, and Serbian monarchs understood they can rule it not as federation of equal nation who all voluntarily joined the union, but as an absolutist land with one nation domination. As second greatest nation Croats tried to change the situation, but their major politicians have been executed in Belgrade parliament. After that a terrorist groups were formed among Croatian emigrants and they killed Serbian king, and later this criminals, who were trained by Mussolini from the start, formed a Croatian government after Germany and Italy occupied Yugoslavia. This never elected and never confirmed government implemented a too overdune and outrageous response to Serbian dominacy what led to four years of terror where everyone fought against everyone (like Lebanon in late 70's), but it must be realised that Serbs had the biggest share of tragedy (though the number of killed was multiplied to make things look even worse). Immidiately after WWII the revenge started, and countless non-Serbian people were killed or "disappeared". After that a peace maintained till the end of 90's, but every nation kept in memory their bad experiences with other nations. A big deal of guilt lays on communists who never let post-war crimes and victims be mentioned (that's understood because they commited it), but also never scientificaly analysed and counted victims of concentration camps (noone understands why). Anyway, these peace was false, and it was kept by strong army and police. Therefore there was no chance to return thrust among nations, and first quarrels reopened old wounds. Unlike in WWII when the strongest army (German) took Croat side, this time Yugoslav army took Serbian side, and now they were in position to comit most of the crimes.

Reading all your posts I can see you have more than average knowledge, information and understanding about this tragic events; I've tried to give you some more explanations. Hope you had time enough. If you have any questions, feel free to ask; if you don't agree or believe in something I've written, we can discuss it. (It's very late and I'm too tired to check possible typing and spelling mistakes, sorry if you find them.)

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Im not an expert on yugoslavia and only have an idea of its history. But I know the croats did kill a hell of alot of serbs during ww2. I know the Serbs and croats have had difficulties in getting along since the dark ages and the Turks ruled the balkans at a barrel of a gun for centuries with many bloody wars in between.

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Croats indeed killed those people and noone ever (except some radical nationalists that aren't taken seriously by anybody) denied it. Just, the real number is far below the one that communist Yugoslav government usually presented, but concerning that any number bigger than zero is a too big number, I won't take part in the bidding. But here's one number, just as an example: through decades it was official (but, as I've said yesterday, never really tried to be counted and confirmed) that there were about 700000 killed in the biggest campus, Jasenovac. Since the end of 90's war, as all sides changed the rhetorics, noone mentioned more than 200000 victims, and recently there was a TV program made by bosnian Serbs, where even they said that the most presumable number was about 100000. Today some people in Croatia speculate that some of the bodies found there happen to be Croatian victims of after-war revenge. Though it might be quite possible, noone ever tried to prove this either, and it's most likaly they never will, because Croats can diminish their WWII crimes and in the same time Serbs can pretend to be completely innocent denying any killings after the WWII.

But there were never real conflicts between these two nations before the 20th century. In fact, during Turkish conquests many Serbian refugees found their new homes in Croatia, and Austrian empire used them to form a military zone on a boundary once Turks strength decreased.

You can't use Turks and all those wars and battles Slavic people led against them to say that Croats and Serbs "had difficulties in getting along"; their only enemy were Turks, as they were Hungarian, Austrian, Romanian, Bulgarian and many other nations' enemy too. Those well known Balcanic wars took part in the southeast od Peninsula, and never included Croats (or, certainly, Slovenians), but Serbs, Turks, Bulgarians, Greek and other nations living there.

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I got my info from this site. I believe it to be relativly correct. It says the reason why the serbs had hated croats was due to many bloody wars with catholic nations such Huangary, AUstria ect thus the reason why they had such diffiuclty living been on country with croats. Turkey ruled the balkans for centuries this would have created alot of ethnic conflict when the ottman empire collasped and left many turkish colonisers who would have been seen as occupiers in the balkans not to mention all the slavs they converted to islam would have been seen as traitors by christian populance.

My friend whoes a serb said the explained the reason for war to me like this. When a serb looks at a muslim he thinks of his loved ones killed, his wife and daughters raped, when a muslim looks at a croat he thinks the same thing, and when a croat looks at a serb he thinks the same thing

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Very good explanation. And I must add too quick changes of country leaderships and political systems - after Austro-Hungarian empire it was a SHS kingdom (Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians), then autocratic Kingdom of Yugoslavia (both with Serbian monarchs), followed by quisling states during WWII, then SFRJ - socialist republic, a one (communist) party state dominated by Serbs, but led by Croatian president (more or less a kind of dictator). The trust these nations had in the beginning simply had no chance to be kept alive.

But your information about last centuries were wrong again. Serbs were never in war with Hungary, and Austria was far, far away till the occupation of Bosnia near the end of 19th century (you can read more on another board we share). In fact, it was AustroHungarian empire that invited Serbs to Vojvodina, a south-Hungarian province with mixed Hungarian, Romanian and Croatian population, and a certain not small amount of Czechs, Slovaks, Ukrainians... Vojvodina, a plain with fantastic possibilities for agriculture, now is included in Serbia, although in some parts there is still a big majority of Hungarian population (up to 90 percent).

Serbs didn't fight against Romania either, most of their wars were led against Turks and Bulgarians. And Croats never had enemies on the east border except Ottoman empire; they had a very complex relation with Austria and Hungary, and often tried to get more authonomy by leaning either on Vienna or Budapest. Croatian aristocrat-soldier Nikola Subic Zrinski is also one of most honored Hungarian heros (almost every city in Hungary has a street or square named after Miklos Zrinyi, what's Hungarian name for him) because he died in one of most important battles against Turks, bravely defending Hungarian town Szigetvar. But another Croat, Josip Jelacic helped Austrians to overcome Hungarian rebellion against Austrian absolutism (Bach's regime), and due to his merits Strauss named one song after him. Consistency was not a characteristic of Croatian politics.

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[deleted]

Dear Gunner ( We all know that Serbs likes guns )

I would like to know how to hell you came with that idea that MUSLIMS KILING PEOPLE IN KOSOVO... Why not to say that "MUSLIMS" are Kosovar-Albanians and
"PEOPLE" are Serbs. Administrator should not let you on site with this last
coments. You are just Prikriveni cetnik Srboljub Zlo.
Shame on You, ask Bosnian Muslims, Bosnian Srbs or Bosnian Croats why they left Bosnia? It was just minor BATLLE not a war. They should stay and wait for
end of battle.

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[deleted]

what the hell do you think, of course it's a true story and it's just a little piece of the whole cake. It's just what these guys (and girl) have seen, there's lots of more *beep* that has happend. So everybody: stop asking this kind of questions, because it's true, and the whole truth is even worse.

My parents now for sure and all my relatives, the pictures in the media are evidence. The stories told by soldiers is evidence quite as well. The pictures and the footage made during the war are evidence. I hope I conivinced you....

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The setting in wich this story takes place, fictional storyline I might ad, is very in your face real. Especially the part of the Arkan Tigers killing frenzy is very truely depicted. Just the part where these journalists taking pictures wander and stumble/fall through it all while it's taking place is fictional.
Before the Balkan conflict exploded this Arkan was very well known as a psychopath criminal/drugrunner in the Netherlands and Germany. He liked killing people. This war was a way to return to yugoslavia(where he was a wanted criminal)and become a war hero(!!!!) to the Serbs. This guy surrounded himself with likewise former criminals and hardened thugs and extremists nationalists willing to kill/rape/torture/mame and so on where the regular serb army did not lend it self to(not for lack of trying). Arkan's group has never faced prosecution for acts committed throughout the balkan conflicts during wich they trived on the spoils of war, black market, smuggling weapons contraband. I mean these guys were loaded with dollars after the conflicts ended. Arkan himself escaped any prosecution on this earth. He was shot dead in a hotel in belgrade.
He now rots in hell.
So well there are two stories here; the Balkan tragedy upon wich they pasted with mixed result, a story about a woman looking for her man. An american woman -wink-. The first; grim reality, the latter a soapy lovestory. It does make a good movie though. *beep* Some stories need to be put on the screen, if only as a background.
As of yet Mladic and Karadzic are still not behind bars. The Bosnian chapter in the Balkan conflicts remains a stinking rotting wound. There's reality for ya. This story true enough for ya?

signed; Dutchman who wishes Dutchbat had a full strength Armour division with infantry and close air support in the Srebreniça enclave. We wouldn't have any xcuses in that case.

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"Dutchman who wishes Dutchbat had a full strength Armour division with infantry and close air support in the Srebreniça enclave. We wouldn't have any xcuses in that case."


Sorry mate but I don't buy that. The Dutch army is hardly at the cutting edge of the military. Your army simply doesn't have the personnel, the attitude, the equipment or the "cajones" to have dealt with a well equiped and more importantly, battle hardened opponent such as the Serbian army. Even if u were well equiped and had the necessary air support, ask any nation who they'd want coming to their defense, the Dutch Army or the British Army (without UN beurocracy)....so spare me the bravado.

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British, French and US troops in Bosnia HAD armour and air support. Yet they did nothing.

And the YPA (Yugoslav Peoples Army) or later Serbian paramilitary organization was not a "battle hardened" juggernaut, but a collective of weekend soldiers, criminals and ex-YPA soldiers. It took them 3 months to enter Vukovar for crying out loud! With 10:1 overwhelming force.

YPA had the hardware and the personell, yet they lacked "cojones". It is easy to shell a big city from the surrounding mountains, but it is quite a different story driving an ovesized steel coffin against a determined and organized defense.
The Vukovar siege was a siege because the Serbian mofos didn't know *beep* about combined arms warfare, since their superiors still thought in WW2 partisan terms.
Soviets used AK from late 40's but YPA only got around to introduce its version of AK, called M70, in the 70's, the firepower and rate of fire quadroupled, but the YPA still used the WW2 era platoon organization.
In 2001 we had a 3 months training with Bosnian, Croat and Serbian unexploded ordnance disposal teams at Ig Training Centre, near Ljubljana, Slovenia. We talked about the war and they all agreed, that the things done in that war earned them, at LEAST a long stay in purgatory, or a straight path too hell. That's why everyone of them volunteered for the mine disposal unit. One of them summed their motives in a sentence "I think that God let me live so I can use my talent to save lives I helped destroy."

It is easy to be a bravado filled jackass when you know that the air support is a call away and you sit in your 75t tank while the opponent has an AK. The real curage comes when you have to sell your body (or worse) so your child has something to eat and drink. That's why parents are Gods in childs eyes.

LP
osti

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The Serbian/Bosnian Serb army was battle hardened by the time war broke out in Bosnia (that was when UNPROFOR was deployed and it was also the point during the war that I was referring to in my original post)as the offensive that began in Vukovar had already finished and the attention was now on the Muslim forces in Bosnia. The majority of the troops used in the seige of Vukovar were Chetniks (Serbian nationalist guerrillas) and it was at their hands that the majority of attrocities were committed. I believe that Arkan's unit, The Tigers, was also present in Vukovar. The Tigers where mainly hooligans from Red Star Belgrade FC and ex-convicts who were turned into armed units that had a free reign to do basically anything that they wanted to do e.g rape, torture etc.....

Another result of the war is something that I heard first hand while in Mostar this year and that is the looming shadow of Islamic fundamentalism in Sth Eastern Europe. Mostar was the scene of savage fighting between Bosnian Croats (Hercegovs) and Muslims. The Muslims were known to have Mujahadeen from Saudi Arabia, Syria, Chechnya etc fighting alongside them and their involvement has left the prospect of major problems involving terrorist units/sympathisers on Europe's own door step.

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Being in a battle doesn't mean you are battle hardened veteran. Vukovar was a specific case, almost a uniqe combat operation, that led to re-evaluation of Arkan's tactics. In Vukovar his unit was on the battlefront, whereas in later years, his unit was behind the front, making sure the 'volunteers' didn't escape from the slaughter on the front. And Vukovar fell because not enough support was given to its defenders by the Croat government. Some theories suggest that Tudžman and Milošević agreed to leave Vukovar and Slavonija to Serbs, while other area in Croatia and BiH was to become Croatian zone of interest. Vukovar's defenders led a valiant fight, but you can't really stop a coordinated and well planned assault with tanks SUPPORTING the infantry. Previous attacks were carried out by tanks LEADING the infantry, at a time when the defenders STILL had anti-tank weapons.

War in Bosnia and Herzegovina broke out in 1992 and lasted till 1995. The troops used in attack on Vukovar were paramilitary (Arkan's Tigers), TO (teritorial defense) and YPA units (tank and artillery). Most of the troops used there were reserve units, that were called up for "weekend exercises" or other type of one time duty (most males of military age in Serbia hid from the MPs, and a lot of them went to other "friendly countries" on prolonged vacations).
UNPROFOR got extended mandate in 1993 (to protect civilian areas). Before that, its main mission was centered on Sarajevo airport and distribution of food. I don't know which gennious approved LIGHTly armed troops to protect civilians (who HAD to turn over their weapons in order to be eligable for protection!!!) from heavily armed agressors, but there is NO chance that ANY battalion size unit (armed with only personal weapons - assault rifles and sidearms, 12,7 mm cannon on a APC being the biggest weapon) could counter a surprise, armor backed assault on an area as big as Srebrenica. That's why they requested an airstrike. Which never came, or not in the right time.

YPA was no more than a paper tiger. I saw how that tiger tried to occupy my country, but faild at the attempt after 10 days. And we didn't even use all our forces.
All the YPA hardware and bases in BiH went into Serb hands, AND THEY STILL needed 3 years (!) to conquer 15% more teritory than they ORIGINALY had under their controll. Against poorly armed civilians. Most of the attacks against Sarajevo were reppelled, other enclaves were occupied only AFTER the Serbs massed 5x more troops and hardware than the opposing side had.
That's why there were so many atrocities commited in BiH, so that people would flee, rather than fight them.

The 7th Muslim Brigade was created for volunteers coming from Muslim countries, and other as well, who wanted to fight for the Bosniak side in the Bosnian war. Radical Islamists were present in Europe long before that. But back then, they stayed in CIA safehouses and training facilities, where they were tought how to counter the Soviets.

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Ostil,

I was unaware u were from the Balkans, none of my comments are in anyway meant to offend you, I'm sure u know more about your country's history than I do. My girlfriend is a Croat from Dubrovnik and I've had conversations with her father about this topic and because of my family history (Polish) I have a great deal of respect and admiration for the defenders of Vukovar & Sarajevo as this has similiarities with the Warsaw Uprising in August 1944 in that a bullying agressor that is better armed and equipped than the defenders and yet still encounters huge difficulties in overcoming their resistance. The only difference between Warsaw and Sarajavo is that atleast the international community came to Sarajevo's aide whereas the Poles where left to die......alone.

I would urge u to read the article below regarding Islamic extremists in

http://www.balkanpeace.org/index.php?index=/content/analysis/a15.incl

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I wasn't offended, I just wanted to shed some light in the whole mess. It is hard to understand what actually happened in Yugoslavia, even before the war.
Yes, YPA was the 4th largest army in Europe (after UK, France and Germany), but the cadre and the doctrine of fighting were obsolete. Much of this ment that the units inherited from YPA were large and well equipped, yet poorly led. Sure, they were able to shell cities, but it was hard for a low-morale troops to actually charge fortified positions. That's why Arkan and his lackays were used in the rear.

The Warsaw and Sarajevo/Vukovar cases are a lot more simmilar than that. When Poles rose up in 1944, the Soviet army stopped it's advance. Some say because they encountered heavy resistance, like that ever stopped the Red Army. I'm more inclined to think they just wanted the Nazis to 'pacify' the uprising, and then the Red army would enter as a saviour. This case shares similarities with S/V to the point that the International community always had means to stop the shelling and attacks on Sarajevo and Vukovar, yet it chose to do nothing. Even Tudjman could have sent some support to the defenders, yet he didn't.

I read the article You providede (the link), it has some disturbing arguments, but I knew that (since the incident at Maribor Airfield I watched the developements around arms dealing in Balkans more closelly), yet some statements are hard to swallow.

LP
osti

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This movie is 99% true. The only thing that is not true was that journalist-his-american-wife-loves-him-a-lot thing.

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The story is about "that journalist-his-american-wife-loves-him-a-lot thing" and the world watches the plot, everything else is just the background and it could be war in Rwanda, Titanic disaster or eruption of Vesuv. So, you can't say it is 99 percent true. Circumstances, events, crimes, places, that is true, but when you answer question about movie, the main plot is what people ask about. Therefore you gave them wrong information. And people who find this background being the most important are those people who know what was going on. But people from Vukovar or Skabrnja, Kijevo or Kostajnica won't ask you anything. They'd rather forget it if they ever could. Most likely they never will.

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I've never been able to understand what the war in Yugoslavia was all about. So confusing but thanks Mario and others for clearing up a lot of things. It was an incredible film.

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It's true form one point of view, yours.

The biggest BS is how they presented Serbs in the movie.
COme on, it's like Dawn of the Serbs-pure anti-serb propaganda.

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The biggest BS is how they presented Serbs in the movie.
COme on, it's like Dawn of the Serbs-pure anti-serb propaganda.

you're right, in reality the serbs entered the town in order to distribute chocolate bunnies among the population, but the blood thirsty croats exploited their good intentions and started a war. damn western propaganda, propaganda from the east is far more romantic :)

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This movie did portray the serbian war crimes in a realistic way. Serbs are known worldwide for their hostile ways.

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