just a thought on us


with all my respect for the history all the balcan's people have made, I'd like to raise a question: do other Europians know our history? and furthermore, do the Americans know it? how do they reflect the knoledge or the lack of it? some people like a portugese lady (ex-UN staff in Bosnia) seems to have a very superficial judge on dramatic halts of history. this sadden us, as it is goes along with the whole policy that Europe has followed in Balcans so far. another question for some other debate funs: does the religion mean nationality?! to finish this comment, I express my regret about the disability and lack of courage we the balcanics have to look insight themselves.

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That's why no one respects us - because we first make some nonsense wars and then argue about good and bad guys.

And we even dare to get mad when rest of the world brands us as barbars.

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That's a very good question.
And the answer is NO.

Bosnia, Hercegovina, Croats, Macedonians,Slovenes (Slovakia maybe?), Montenegro, Kosovo, Yugoslavia, Albanians,Bosniaks,... it's all the same to most people.

Where I went to school, we just learned that Sarajevo is where World War I started, that Yugoslavia was created after World War I, that it became communist and non-aligned under Tito,and that it started falling apart in 1991. That's it.




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And have you been taught in school that it was Serbian terrorist group who first unsuccessfully tried to kill Austrian archduke Ferdinand, and next day they have done it?

Now, no matter if you live in USA, Canada, West Europe or anywhere in more or less democratic country, how would you call a group of people who work for certain country which trains them and sends them to another country to kill its officials, politicians, members of government? Every modern democratic country would condemn that act (just a day ago B.Bhutto has been killed...) and demand strict measures against those who committed it, including measures against the country who has organized it (until it prosecutes those who were responsible). But the Kingdom of Serbia (Yugoslavia) glorified these terrorists as heroes; what's more, Yugoslavia communists after WWII kept the same attitude, and it was a big honor to meet the one still living members of the assassination group.

I think that this fact describes well what kind of politics and relations have been existing in this part of Europe. Maybe it is all too hard to understand and that's why other distant nations don't even try.

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I must say that when I went to school in the USA in the 1970's and early 1980's I was taught in school that a Serb 'anarchist' Princip assassinated Archduke Ferdinand to spark WW1.

However, it must be understood that the 1970's and early 1980's was the height of the Cold War and most of my teachers and state sponsored education was still very anti-communist/socialist in the USA at that time.

Also, I was always interested in history especially when it was concerning the area, which I had grown up listening to stories about from my grandparents.

Interestingly, my wife who attended USA schools up to 1990 never was taught any of what I was as any type of USA or foreign History education was replaced by different type of political or 'activist' education.

1/505 LRSU 82-91

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[deleted]

Murderers are murderers, terrorists are terrorists, and it doesn't matter where they come from. There's no excuse for killing King Alexander, Stjepan Radic, Vladimir Rolovic, Bruno Busic... not to mention assassinations made by police like Djuro Djakovic, Andrija Hebrang etc.

Ustashe were a terrorist group similar to Mlada Bosna or any other old-time terrorist group. The shame of their existence is even bigger because they sold themselves to another country: first for a shelter, then for power, and they have shown their real soul and nature when WWII began in Yugoslavia - they got power without any elections (why is then Croatian nation always considered responsible for their crimes, when there have never been elections to show real feelings of people?) only by mercy - or better by interest - of Nazi and fascist occupants; and then these traitors gave a big part of their homeland (that they declared so much to care for) as a gift for their bosses, or should I better say owners.

But look at the timing... Have you ever heard of terrorist attack or assassination that Croats committed before murder in Sarajevo? You can say that this is an usual "hen - egg" question, but answer again who took whose land - and I don't mean 1991 but much before? Austrian Empire allowed Serbs and Vlachs to settle on Croatian land, but as long as Yugoslavia wasn't created it was no problem. They inhabited low populated areas and had no problems with those rare neighbors. However, when WWI came to end Serbian government started systematically settling their people in other parts of Croatia, giving them best agricultural land in Slavonia, and of course all important positions in police, schools, administration etc. all over Yugoslavia. Now I don't say this is something unusual, weird, specific for Serbs - all occupants do it, just remember how England treated Ireland or their overseas colonies, Russians other Soviet republics, China in Tibet, or what has Ottoman Empire done to conquered countries. Also, assassination in Belgrade when Radic brothers have been killed happened five years prior to murder in Marseille. Yet, I completely agree, no murder can ever be an excuse for another murder (also, I am against capital punishment) but some things must be clear.




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Actually the Serbian Government did not support the black hand organization, the president of serbia at the time tried everything possible to avoid war with Austria-Hungary after the assasination by Princep. Austria gave Serbia an ultimatum that was planned long before the assasination, the assasination was just used as an excuse for war. The Serbian president at the time gave in to every demand made by the Austrian ultimatum except one, that was for Serbia to allow Austrian police to enter Serbia in order to find the members of the organization, which any respectable country would not allow. Also, it should be noted that many Croats and Slovenes supported Serbia her nationalists' goal to unite the south slavs. Remember, once we were all friends or atleast most, and many Hrvati would rather unite with the Serbs and gain autonomy than stay under Hapsburg rule.
People can condemn Princep for what he did but who knows how things would be now if he didn;t assasinate the Archduke Franz Ferdinad. The Archduke was on the verge of becoming Emperor as his uncle Franz Joseph was close to death and his major goal was to grant the south slavs within the Empire, including the Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia, autonomy within the Empire. Many Croats would have taken this with open arms however they still wouldnt have been independant they still would have been under the Austro-Hungarian Empire. If Princep didnt assasinate the Archduke and WW1 never happened Croatia and Slovenia and Bosnia would still be under Austrian rule.

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But too many people, too many countries, too many crowned heads wanted the war, and it was probably inevitable. If it wasn't for Princip, Austria would find another excuse to attack Serbia. Or maybe somebody else, just to make things change. Or some other country would start the war and Austria would simply join. So the guessing what would happen to Slavic nations if there had been no war is just a "what if" theory that was never a real option.

However, that doesn't change the fact that Princip and Young Bosnia committed a terrorist attack.

On the other hand, Archduke was in a way an enemy both for Croats and Serbs (though the act itself probably wasn't something that majority in either of nations wanted or applauded), so analyzing Sarajevo assassination can't be well applied to discussion about relations between these two nations.

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