Movie is true story
I'm from Croatia and is true. The movie is just telling a 1/4 of realy story. War was end in 1994-1995. It was terble.
share[deleted]
You should be ashame of yourself spreading chetnik propaganda on this site especially on the day Vukovar was occupied 13 years ago.
There´s only one true story...Serbs attacking Croats in Vukovar,Croatia in the late summer and during the whole autumn of 1991.
Serbs destroyed the city killing over 3000 civilians. They also butchered wounded POWs from the Vukovar hospital. Three serbian war officials from the period have been indicted for those crimes at the International Tribunal at the Hague. At the moment a trial is also underway in Belgrade, Serbia for the killings in the Vukovar hospital meaning serbian public has finally realised what happend there 13 years ago. Furthermore, there are many Serbs who were killed in Vukovar by their own people just because they didn´t want to desert the town were they peacefully lived among Croatians for centuries..
Death came from Belgrade and you know it boris!
[deleted]
Serbs didn't let us have our own country, THEY attacked US because of the sick great serbia idea!!!! if you don't believe that, then how come the war ended when the serbs withdrew? how come the croats didn't continue their "cleansing"? it's because we didn't want a war! we wanted to seperate peacefully, like the chech and slovaks. don't go lying now boris, admit it. as much as i am ashamed of ustashas, you should be ashamed of chetniks, who weren't that different from hitler as well. we should all do what they couldn't, move on peacefully.
shareSerbs didn't let us have our own country, THEY attacked US because of the sick great serbia idea"
If Serbs wanted great Serbia, then why they continued to call their country Yugoslavia, even after war? Shouldn't they call it great Serbia (including: Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo and Vojvodina) instead of Yugoslavia? Answer is NO. Serbs didn't want great Serbia. Serbs wanted Yugoslavia. It's big difference.
"if you don't believe that, then how come the war ended when the serbs withdrew? how come the croats didn't continue their "cleansing"?"
It's because Croats cleaned everything (remember Flash and Storm). After these two military operations Serbs were banished from Croatia, and they are still in exile.
"we didn't want a war! we wanted to seperate peacefully"
Then why you excluded Serbs from Statute, after proclaiming Croatian State, and took nazi symbols from WW2 as national symbols?
Then why you excluded Serbs from Statute, after proclaiming Croatian State, and took nazi symbols from WW2 as national symbols?
what nazi symbols? wtf are you talking about!? there are national symbols, and then there are nationalist symbols, and ustashas' symbols are not national. and not all croats are serb-hating criminals, but you srpsko sarajevo, just can't get over that, and your nickname says it the best. can't stop living in the past, can you?
"nazi symbols from WW2 as national symbols?"- what nazi simbols, there are none.
We didn`t want war. Read our history. We were always fighting for existance, since 7th century. From the time we existed everyone wanted our land and sea, and rule us. Austrians, Germans, Talians(mletci, long time ago) and Serbians.
Serbians attacked, we defrfended our selfs. It`s always been that way. And then in the end we end up as a bad guys. I don`t know the details,I`m jung, and i`m not judging anyone, but i can`t say that some croatian soldiers didn`t do same things as serbian soldiers. But I also know that there were some serbian people who didn`t want that war. There was a war, now it`s over. And we are glad. And now we`re all in good relations.
A long, long time ago I can still remember how that music used to make me smile...
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
As a Macedonian you should know history better than that. More than 150 years ago Jelacic had to decide which ocupators were more threatening Croatia, he tried to chose between two evils, Austrian empire and Hungarian supremacy in Croatia that lasted eight centuries. Did he chose well? Noone knows. Today both Austria and Hungary are great friends with each other and with Croatia and I hope this part of history won't be reopened, unless someone has really bad plans trying to destroy peace in this Mid-European region. (One would expect someone from Macedonia, surrounded by at least five countries that ruled or try to conquer your country, to understand this better than anyone. You must know that Hungarians didn't plan to let Croatia free if they won!)
In WW1 Croatia was part of Austro-Hungarian enmpire, so Croatian people were mobilised, noone asked them who they want to fight for (or do they at all). Remember, or learn if you still don't know, that in XIX century Croats didn't use their name for nationalist movements, they called themselves Ilirs, to avoid suspicion and fear among neighbours, mostly Serbs, finding them potentially best friends. Also in XIX century Yugoslavian Academy of Science and Art was founded in Zagreb, not Croatian, and still in both Yugoslavias (1918-1991) there was no Croatian Academy, while Serbs had their Serbian, Slovenians their Slovenian academy etc. So who wanted to build and keep Yugoslavia most? But when it became unbearable (due to Milosevic politics) this idea was broken.
And one remark about WW2. Those terrorist group called ustashe were trained by Mussolini for one reason, the same as any terrorists throughout history exist. And when Nazis occupied Croatia, no real Croatian politican participated the government, it was proclaimed by German and Italian servants. They killed people as all terrorists do, yes, killed more Serbs than Croats, but they were nothing more than quisling agents of nazis.
And I'm sorry for anybody killed in this or any war. Criminals ar criminals everywhere, in Sweden or in Rwanda, just war gives them better opportunites. No country, your or mine, is criminalfree.
1. Jelacic was a 19th century NOBLEMAN, which means he was fighting for his own cause. Hungary and Croatia were NOT in war because none of these countries existed then, they were both a part of Habsburg Empire, and didn't have their own armies. Jelacic led his own troops, against Hungarian rebels against the Habsburg Emperor, and not Croatians.
2. We didn't join up in Germans in any of the two World Wars cause, again, we didn't exist as an independent country.
Before WW1 we were a part of Habsburg Empire, alongside many other now independent countries, and the ONLY person who was deciding about any alliances was the Emperor. Austrian Emperor.
Before WW2 we were a part of Yugoslavia, which was overran by the Nazis. When the country was under German and Italians, the ocupators decided to create a fascist puppet-state of Croatia, and put the Ustashe on "power", Croatian fascist stationed in Mussollini's Italy until then.
(BTW, since you're a Macedonian, I'll mention that Ustashe cooperated with VMRO, so, by calling all Croatians fascists because of the Ustashe, you're in a way calling yourself a fascisct too.)
3. About the military compounds - you said it yourself:
YUGOSLAVIAN military compounds in CROATIA.
What would you think about Albanians having military camps in Skopje?
Maybe, in some cases. the war still hadn't started before first conflicts began, but later army broke out of these compounds and attacked the cities.
If had no intentions of doing that they would just leave.
The problems was that JNA didn't recognize Croatian independency.
4. It doesn't take two sides to start a war.
5. "...and don't start telling me that you wanted peace, when you clearly never wanted it."
We always wanted peace, so did the Croatia Serbs.
It's only those who don't have to go to war themselves, or see there children go, WANT war.
And if you meant Croatian politicians...well, you can never really tell what goes on in someone's mind, and what would happen if Milosevic didn't grab the chance.
But I really doubt that the serbs would be ethnically cleansed, although it happende at some degree durignthe war (AT SOME DEGREE! I saw someone saying that Croatia is clean of Serbs - croatian leading party is in COALITION with a serbian one, so they are officially a part of croatian government).
Why I don't believe it would happen?
Cause there would be no war to "hide" or "legitimize" it (by "legitimize" I mean closing an eye for a grater cause, as a way to peace).
This last reply was realy systematic. But that made me read again the post our Macedonian friend had sent, and I found some details that I've missed before.
I didn't notice that soldier was killed BEFORE the war started. There were NO attacks on Yugoslav soldiers before the war (well, off course, it depends what does someone consider about the real date the war began).
Do you know how many young people died in the army during 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's? Why would year 1990 be any different? Or maybe it happened only to Croats, and Macedonians didn't have strange "accidents"? Those young people were sent home in metal, sealed coffins so noone could ever see how they looked like, and check if they really "fell from the train while traveling home" or some other usual official explanation. From time to time, however, some witnesses dared to whisper that the soldiers had been either shot or hanged themselves. But these thing were a taboo as well as partisan crimes.
The war is a dirty thing. I don't know any nation that doesn't want peace. As Mor_Oghma wrote, both Croats and Croatia Serbs wanted peace. But you underestimate the power of leaders and media. When people repeatedly hear in how great danger they are, they start behaving irrationaly. If today, while all that mass hysteria about avian flu spreads worldwide, someone suggested a war against (e.g.) Thailand because they endanger the world by doing nothing to prevent it so we might all die if (due to their indolence) a pandemia occurs - don't you think he would have followers? Then if they find enough less educated people in isolated areas who would form an army, or at least "paramilitar forces"...?
And if someone is so eloquent and convincing leader and a demagogue as Milosevic... The rest is (a tragic) history.
First SARAJEVO is capital City of Bosnia and your name said everything.
"Serbian Sarajevo" Ha, ha, ha it is not and never will be .
Secondly, Why are you playing realy strange game?
We all know why you caling your self Yugoslavia insted of Srbija.
Yugoslavija was thanks to CROAT TITO respectful country in the world.
You are hiding behind her name because when you say SRBIJA every one
remember Srebrenica, Sarajevo,Manjaca, Vukovar,Dubrovnik, Kosovo... And every one know that word Serbia is simbol for DEVIL, Brutality and Crime. Serb are hiding behind Yugoslavia, something that does not exist any more.
I am realy mad that Serbs even spoiled our memories because Yugoslavija
was a great country to live in. My Yugoslavija is in me. You are Beogradski
Pasaluk,you do not have even Kosovo nor Crnu Goru.
Just a side note... Why is your nickname "Sarajevo is Serbian?". This kind of behavioral pattern is what brought to these wars in the first place. It is sad you haven't learned anything from this movie.
sharewell said, dri9!! i'm croatian and i'm ashamed of the ustasha myself. just a few months ago i was verbally attacked by a serb online who called me an ustasha because i posted the croatian flag up on my space profile. he apologized eventually and i told him the exacty same thing you posted. i'm happy that croatia is now independent, but both sides are to blame for the atrocities.
share[deleted]
Boris t: If you can't speak my language properly, don't post on these MBs, your post is a load of nonsense - the fact is that all sides were equally to blame during that period, all did equally horrible things to the others, and all deserved exactly what they got which is the contempt of the rest of the world.
George... don't do that!
the fact is that all sides were equally to blame during that period
Can you please define "that period"? I don't want to waste my time or forum's space and find out that we don't talk about same thing. I promise to reply after your answer.
BTW I like beliefs in your personal page. share
Hahahaha.... Chetnik propaganda? Is that something President Truman overlooked in 1948. when he awarded a star to Chetnik General D. Mihailovic for saving 500 lifes of American pilots in the WWII?
How about recent developments in Croatia: a Serb, 81 years old, slaugthered like a lamb in his house? Or an old Serbian woman, strangled with a wire - by her own Croatian neighbor?
People, if you'd like to get more info on bloodshed in the former Yugoslavia read books, e.g. read what General Michael Rose wrote in his book " Fighting for Peace"! Croatians were the "untouchables" from 1991 until recently, they sang Danke Deutchland (literally) and got all the help from Germans (AGAIN) - oh, how history repeats itself...
For a time being, movies like H. Flowers will be made, but - independent movies will never portray Croats as victims - they have always faught on the agressor's side, they killed king of Yugoslavia because he was a Serb, they built concentration camps (Jasenovac and Gradiska) for Jews and Serbs, destroyed over 40 thousand Serbian children in WWII, committed genocide against 300 thousand Serbs in 1995, and now would like to be victims of so called "agression"? And how do you become an agressor in your own house?
To see Croatian Army in their full power and "glory", visit a few web sites:
http://www.pavelicpapers.com/
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t081/t08100.html
http://www.arhivrs.org/e_jasenovac2.asp
The movie itself, eh... I rather watch Van Helsing - accurate and real as Harrison's Flowers, but with better special effects...
Croats indeed sang that odious "Danke Deutschland", but yes, in 1991., when Germany appeared to be among rare nations that tried to do something to stop slaughters, and we all know who was slaughtering then, but you very carefully avoid crimes in that year. In 1991. it was not Germany that occupied one third of Croatian land after unsuccesful attempt to conquer Slovenia, following occupation of Bosnia...
Imagine Swedish minority in Finland suddenly deciding to separate, blocking main roads and railway, killing most of their neighbours after torturing them the way our readers don't want to know (unless horror fans), imprisoning some in concentration camps and leting some of the lucky ones as refugees leave their homes. Imagine than this minority asking help from their main nation, Sweden, and imagine Swedish army attack Finland, join these rebels and continue killing civilians, concealing the massacres by throwing bodies in wells, rivers, or big, hidden unmarked graves. Can you imagine it in Finland? Of course not, neither can I. But it happened in Croatia in 1990 and 1991.
Yes, Croatia has her share of mistakes and crimes. Jasenovac is a tragic black spot in it's history - though formed and led by government that was never elected or confirmed by Croatian nation, it was set by nazi occupants. And this self-proclaimed government was a bunch of terrorists trained by Mussolini's fascists, and they were responsible for murdering Serbian king as any other terrorist would do (like Serbian terrorist Gavrilo Princip killed Austrian archduke Franz Ferdinand in organisation of Serbian kingdom, and therefore still gloryfied by Serbs).
But even not completely responsible for WWII crimes, Croats can't avoid the fact they were organized and commited in Croatia while some kind of Croation government ruled the country. Yet, it's a twisted logic when someone says that it means a nation that once made crimes always does the same. If Jews were victims in WWII it doesn't mean they were always victims - look their relation to neighbours, let alone Palestinians. Or what about Vietnam concerning their war against Americans and later their adventure in Cambodia?
And better don't mention Draza Mihailovic. I've always believed Truman was a great and honest man. So, either he was wrong informed, or this medail was a defiance against communist regime in Yugoslavia. Personaly, if I were Serb, I would hide a fact that this star has been awarded by a nation that still leads some kind of war in Afghanistan, occupies and bombs Iraq, threatens Iran and some other countries, decides which nations can get freedom and which must stay occupied (Palestinians, Kurds...), and after all, nation that bombed your own country only few years ago, and enabled separation of your nation's cradle Kosovo...
(Editing was just correcting mistakes in typing)
[deleted]
And all the Serbs were not chetniks as they are not today either. But there is a strange manner that people - and that includes even politicians, who are supposed to understand things better - simplify things in history. Nations have symbols attached and can't get rid of it. All Russians are Reds, all Iranians moslem terrorists, all Italians members of maffia, all German nazis, all Jews crooks... So, in this world order all Croats are ustashas and all Serbs are chetniks. This is absurd, but this is what people believe. Most Croats didn't want and didn't even know the reality about Jasenovac till 1945. Most Serbs didn't participate and didn't even know about Srebrenica in 1995. But the world doesn't care since Croats and Serbs have their seals on their foreheads.
share[deleted]
From reading all the post on this bord i can see why there can never be peace in yugoslavia. u people cant even be on the same website without fighting.
shareThat is why Yugoslavia ceased to exist. It was impossible to be saved, and if the world realized that in time (and not do everything to prevent its breakup instead) most of the tragic events could have been avoided.
But now, living in their own countries, these nations, though not liking each other very much, and still not trusting each other either, have no more excuses to keep on fighting or threading their neighbours.
The killing hasnt stopped. Bosnia which was once peaceful multicultural country has become a place of hate since serber's attempts of ethinic cleansing. In kosovo before the war the albainians were willing to live in peace with the serb minority but since the war are doing what the serbs did to them raping and killing all the unfavourable ethnic minorities
shareBosnia and Kosovo are two very different problems.
Bosnia was considered to be a "little Yugoslavia" because of it mixed population and language that is something between Croatian and Serbian. But unlike Serbia and Montenegro that were independent countries before WWI and unlike Croatia who had a certain level of authonomy in Austro-Hungarian Empire Bosnia had no tradition of statehood; also, unlike Slovenians and Macedonians that didn't have countries, but were nations with its history, language, traditions, Bosnia was a political creation made in 1870's when Austria won it from Turks. The Moslem or Bosnian nation didn't exist at all, population was composed of catholic Croats, orthodox Serbs, and Croats and Serbes that accepted Islam during many centuries of Turkish occupation. Only after WWII communists officialy recognized new nation called Moslems, and the main reason was to diminish both Croats and Serbs as two leading nations in Yugoslavia, and the goal was to wipe away all nations and form a new one, Yugoslav, the way USSR was trying to form a Soviet nation. Bosnia was left in administrative boundaries that had no historical reasons or tradition, and that is the main reason it can't operate as a normal country. For example, in SW part there are regions with bigger percentage of Croatian population than anywhere in Croatia (and this is not an outcome of war and ethnic cleaning, these are numbers from years before war). But Europe was too afraid of changing any borders, so they are still the same way Austrian empire had made them for their purposes, and not the way any of its nations wanted or decided. And being a "little Yugoslavia" it can be expected to have a Yugoslavian destiny in the end.
Kosovo was the most undeveloped and poor region in Yugoslavia. The main reason was the extreme growth of Moslem Albanian population, that became the majority in a region that was always Serbian, it was a craddle of their nation, state and religion. This Albanian population was so poor that all other federal units had to send money month after month, year after year, and this money was never invested in something that could help Kosovo develop, instead it was used only to make better life for its population and enable them to have even more children. Western federal units, mostly Slovenia which was rather rich industrialized state, became unsatisfied, but firm hand of Communist party forced them to give away a great deal of money they earned. Serbs were also unhappy becoming a minority. First conflicts (raping, murders, burned houses) began 10 years before war in Slovenia and Croatia, and after a few years of military made peace again appeared in late 80's. That's when Milosevic got his chance due to Serbian frustrations on Kosovo, and the crash of Yugoslavia became obvious and inevitable.
Though Albanians on Kosovo had been exposed to Serbian terror, they are far from being innocent (as you can understand from above), and what can be understood even better when you consider problems they caused in Macedonia.
"Though Albanians on Kosovo had been exposed to Serbian terror, they are far from being innocent (as you can understand from above), and what can be understood even better when you consider problems they caused in Macedonia."
przgzr, you should quit dealing with politics and history and stick to movies. Same goes for most of you that posted on this thread. As a Kosovar Albanian, I personally resent your comment on being 'far from innocent!' I also hate when people say 'oh well, there was a war and everyone was to blame.' This was a nasty war with a lot of parties involved, even more then ethnicities. Some are 'far from innocent' others even 'further' but based on the results, i.e. the number of killed, raped, tortured and expelled one can quite easily see that some were more 'successful' then others! Or maybe they were just better prepared and more keen on solving the problems by violent, primitive, inhumane means!?
To go back to the movie, I watched it last night on HTV2 and I was pleasantly surprised. The story was good and one could see that the production crew went that 'extra mile' to bring this movie as close to reality as possible. I had heard about Harrison's Flowers before, but I am quite disappointed with some previous movies and TV shows on the war in ex-YU where they don't care about the 'details' like flags, languages, locations etc. I agree with that one comment that casting Andie MacDowell was probably not the best idea (she was SO out of there) but the movie was worth watching.
Greetings from soon-to-be-independent Kosovo!
I wish you good luck, As a Croat I know what is it like to be in your position. However, I never (read all my posts if you want) put a single hint of doubt who is responsible for the war. Just ask yourself about differences between your and our war. You must admit these are two separate wars, because when we were bleeding and it could help a lot if any disturbances or riots occured in Serbia (which included Kosovo those days) while most of their army was in Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovar people suddenly became calm (unexpectedly, after '81, '88...) and waited what will happen to us. When war finally started in Kosovo, the USA army almost immidiately appeared to help you. And what help did we get? Even when we had a chance to help Vukovar or make some other actions to save our people, we were stopped be European watchers in white suits. And since Croatia had finally succeeded to gain freedom, our people have been prosecuted in Hague because they dared to ignore threads of all those negotiators and peacemakers who let Vukovar, Srebrenica, Skabrnja, Dubrovnik, Gorazde, Erdut etc. to happen. We were paying for years during occupation and war, and we are paying again.
And your Macedonian episode is no more laudable than Croatian adventure in Middle Bosnia. We can't be proud of doing that to another country who was in position not much or any better than our own.
Of course it all truely happend.
Bad & over-romantic beginning (why is Sarah wearing shabby clothes (in the tv-room scene)?), good film after-all. 7,5/10
"Chetnik propaganda? Is that something President Truman overlooked in 1948. when he awarded a star to Chetnik General D. Mihailovic for saving 500 lifes of American pilots in the WWII?"
I don't think american pilots had anything to do with that medal. It was a pure political move. Think about it. Awarding a star 3 years after the war and two years after Mihailovic was executed by the communists.
"they have always faught on the agressor's side"
except from 1990-1995...haha...no, really, this got me laughing. Most of the partisans in WWII were Croats or Slovenians and that's because they couldn't stand a marionette country like "NDH" which was entirely submitted to the Italians. However, there were absolutely no partisans in Serbia until 1944 when the outcome of the war became obvious. Until then there were only Chetniks who, by the way, didn't hesitate to collaborate with the Germans and Ustashas (especially in Bosnia)
"they killed king of Yugoslavia because he was a Serb"
He was killed because he was a tyrant, and tyrants occasionally end up like that. Nationality was a factor, but it wasn't of greater significance.
"they built concentration camps (Jasenovac and Gradiska) for Jews and Serbs"
Did any Croat here state otherwise? No. Thats because it actually happened, and that's one part of history we're ashamed of.
"committed genocide against 300 thousand Serbs in 1995"
now this is friggin funny...either you people are making it up or our army is more powerful than American. I doubt it's the second option. It's true, war crimes did occur and they should be severely punished, but even a lunatic like Hitler with all his gas chambers couldn't kill so many people in a few days.
"To see Croatian Army in their full power and "glory", visit a few web sites"
Like I stated earlier, that's a part of our past that we regret, as should you regret what you did in Croatia and Bosnia.
Oh and by the way, I saw the Milosevic trial...I don't understand how could you let that clown lead your country? I quote: "We didn't bomb Dubrovnik, the Croats burned tires in the city to make it appear as if they were bombed."
And to reffer to robynouse's post, which is true, you didn't spend your childhood in a bomb-shelter like I did. You never feared of foreign army 3kms away from your house. It's easy to write nonsense, but it's hard to accept the truth: Your army destroyed a part of my and countless other lives.