Teddy, was 'helping' Lenny. I mean, everybody lies, so we don't exactly know Teddy's motivations, but there is no reason to suspect he is lying about the structure of events. It might still be unclear to some viewers, but Lenny's injury/memory impairment happened after, and is separate from the event of the home invasion/rape of Lenny's wife. I think alot of people miss this bit of information, despite it's never clearly explicated, it's suggested several times.
Teddy was killed because Lenny was off the rails, got angry when Teddy tiredly revealed a crack in his past, and then set Teddy up as John G.
Teddy's claim is that he thought he would help Lenny kill John G. and Lenny would be 'better' or at least somehow calmed. That didn't happen. Lenny had made a ton of notes (Sammy), there was no way to know where all this stuff was, and Teddy was now an accomplice in a murder.
So, Lenny, becoming irrate and distrustful when someone prevents him from chasing John G., Teddy is forced into 'caring' for the matter of finding John G.'s. Otherwise he has to kill Lenny...or Lenny will get caught or something and out everything. Maybe Teddy was just buying time and convincing Lenny to hit the road so he can leave him somewhere and he never finds his way back, giving him ample time to find anything that possibly connect him to John G.'s murder.
Again, I'm definitely inventing this, and this is not in the film, but we can kinda consider Teddy's character, how he treats Lenny, and his confession at the end which is essentially Lenny's confession. He might have had good intentions at one time, but I don't think it's a far leap that he was trying to get rid of Lenny and set him up. Lenny's just way too crazy and stuck in a loop. There is no way to help him. As Teddy ironically discovered, there is a finite number of John G.'s readily available that you can unnoticeably knock off.
Yet...if they don't...Lenny's gonna walk back in the Police Office screaming Teddy's name about an old crime that happened sometime before his head injury...except now he has all the crazy tattoos all over his body and leaves all sorts of 'mementos' everywhere that will implicate Teddy in the murder of John G...and every John G murder thereafter.
Actually, the only thing that doesn't make sense...is why Teddy wouldn't have just revealed the truth earlier in a more controlled situation, and killed Lenny if need-be. So again, it's an obvious question, so we can imagine Teddy thinks Lenny can still be saved, despite how downhill and crazy the situation has become, that he revealed in the intro...
Maybe Teddy can't let go, and his internal logic is really strange and edited...
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nrkist2424
9 years ago
That's an interesting wrinkle though. I kinda sloppily made the point I wanted, but I understand it can be read that I'm suggesting Lenny and Teddy killed John G. prior to the brain injury.
I don't think that's what happened, but it's an interesting and gives more motivation to Teddy's investment in Lenny once he losses his marbles and starts going on a crusade for a John G. they already disposed of. He would be essentially investigating a murder that THEY committed while being very loud and problematic and requiring constant supervision by Teddy.
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mad_weather
9 years ago
To me it seems that after Lenny failed to get "'better' or at least somehow calmed" by killing a real John G, Teddy helped him to arrange a permanent hunt during which Lenny would feel his life meaningful, and Teddy would oversee things with minimal level of personal involvement, to mutual satisfaction. This way didn't even need actually killing anyone - with scarce data Lenny truly had on his hands it was hardly possible to actually *find* someone - but the process was more important here than result. It could last for long time, but one day Jimmy G turned up, a drug dealer that could be persuaded to deal with Teddy, and that - with few adjustments - could be fitted as a scapegoat into Lenny's story. So Teddy had a chance to get Jimmy's carload of money without actually risking his own hide, and using an accomplice that would never remember a thing and wouldn't be able to witness against him.
Oh, and if "Lenny's gonna walk back in the Police Office screaming Teddy's name about an old crime" - well, who's going to believe a memory man? In fact, Lenny himself with his obsessive revenge would be a prime suspect, while Teddy, the actual investigator of his former case, was trying to prevent a new crime, but oh heavens he missed just this little. At that point, it probably looked to Teddy like an ideal crime, a coincidence too perfect, so he couldn't resist.
Only that "no plan survives contact with the enemy," which he learned too late.
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nrkist2424
9 years ago
Well...I don't think you could seriously babysit Lenny with the level of investment that Teddy did, and hold a full time position as a cop/detective.
There was something off there.
The thing about Lenny bringing up his wifes rape and outstanding John G. situation everyday at the precinct was an invention of mine that I explained, but not terribly unreasonable. What I mean to say by that example, is that Lenny was always going to be a problem for Teddy, even though Teddy initially thought he was going to help him in a bit of vigilante justice and guilt allievement.
Lenny didn't remember anything.
It's possible that the only cop in a film, indebted to a memory stricken man, concealing his identity, was the detective that failed Lenny on his wife's rape case, right? Why else would Teddy have such an investment in this character. There are no grounds for this within the film. He admits to giving Lenny the files and being intimately involved with his wife's case. He was the detective, right? I don't think we can know that, but it's a reasonable connection between these men based on the ONLY things we know about their pasts.
But, you are mostly more precise than my considerations.
I would still insist that Teddy was abandoning Lenny and was actually trapped in this situation after the execution of John G. Lenny, might not have a good memory, but he can still detect BS a mile away.
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mad_weather
9 years ago
Well...I don't think you could seriously babysit Lenny with the level of investment that Teddy did, and hold a full time position as a cop/detective.
Yup, that's why I said the involvement was "minimal".
The thing about Lenny bringing up his wifes rape and outstanding John G. situation everyday at the precinct was an invention of mine that I explained, but not terribly unreasonable. What I mean to say by that example, is that Lenny was always going to be a problem for Teddy, even though Teddy initially thought he was going to help him in a bit of vigilante justice and guilt allievement.
Not really. All Lenny says, does and paints on himself points that he *wants* to kill someone, but not that he already *did* that once. As I said, the joyride Teddy settled for Lenny didn't involve actually killing anyone, just being in constant eager preparation for it. The only (circumstantial) evidence that a crime was committed is the "happy picture" and it's safe in Teddy's hands.
I would still insist that Teddy was abandoning Lenny and was actually trapped in this situation after the execution of John G.
We know, though, that the execution of John G happened over a year ago. That's more than enough to decide whether Lenny's crusade poses some danger for Teddy or not.
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nrkist2424
9 years ago
I feel we are getting argumentative again :)
How can Teddy's level of investment be 'minimal' when he's a cop/detective that has to spend every waking moment driving all over town, tracking down Lenny, and creating looping logic problems for a man that it's impossible to crawl inside his head...with the expectation that even after being away for a short period of time, pretty much anything Teddy put in play is all haywire.
Lenny doesn't 'want' to kill somebody. He DID it. He forgot. He did it again. He is always going to kill 'John G.' There's no way around it.
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mad_weather
9 years ago
Again: both times Lenny killed a man other than in self-defense were under Teddy's guidance. If not for Teddy, Lenny wouldn't be able to *find* the real John G or someone else fitting the profile. The data Lenny had on his hands (pun intended) was - intentionally - muddled enough that it'd never point at anyone definitive, and Lenny wasn't a crazy murderer willing to kill every one in the country as long as they're called "John G". He wanted to be sure that it's the right man, and the whole setup was made so that he's never get sure enough. The very fact that Lenny was looking for someone "clever" rather than "junkie too strung out" the real John G was, shows us that Lenny was on a wrong track chasing shadows.
Teddy didn't have to babysit Lenny on every step. Maybe at first, when they were actually looking for a real John G (and in the end, of course, when there was a no less real Jimmy G), but not anymore. Checking once in a while to make sure Lenny doesn't get too serious on some new candidate would be enough.
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nrkist2424
9 years ago
Well...again, Teddy is indeed a liar about some things, but we also know Lenny killed at least 2 other John G.'s than 'the actual' John G.
I mean, the idea that Teddy's leading him on a 'permanent/murderous hunt' is kinda unmanageable at this point. It's clearly not working, and Lenny is always going to kill a John G, sooner rather than later, or find some thread back to Teddy. I don't think Teddy was greatly exaggerating about how many John G.'s they had killed, he was just trying to control a thing that had spiraled out of control. He had already gotten his relief of the case when they killed the actual John G, and Lenny was no longer a resolution of the guilt in failing to get the other culprit in this crime, but a chore...that's gonna send him to prison...unless he just watches it all day...and leads it around on a leash.
Teddy was getting real tired, lazy, and lax in this. Again, he doesn't 'owe' Lenny anything anymore, but Lenny doesn't remember that. Teddy remembers everything though. He's enabling all this. He's done. He's tired. It's terrible chasing this guy around and trying to think like him, and set his life for him. A man he MURDERED for, he would rid himself of anyway possible and has nothing but mildly withheld contempt.
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mad_weather
9 years ago
Well, the first man Lenny killed was during the rape night (not a John G, technically), which he can't be blamed for. The second was under direct supervision by Teddy. Pretty much manageable, I would say.
I don't think Teddy was greatly exaggerating about how many John G.'s they had killed
To be precise, he never said there *were* any other victims than two mentioned above (plus the one that, for fairness' sake, was also killed following Teddy's instructions), only that there could be if Lenny chose that path.
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