MovieChat Forums > Children of Men (2007) Discussion > A little overblown

A little overblown

posted 7 years ago by Tin_ear
16 replies | jump to latest

I always suspected I was missing something about his film, because to me it looked like it was a bunch of random ideas thrown together. For all its allusions, obscure TS Elliot quotes, murdered hippies, civil-servant saviors, Banksy art, Pink Floyd balloons, biblical symbolism, etc., I assumed there had to be more to this film than "racism is bad." (And maybe something about the environment, too.)

Then I read this interview: http://www.vulture.com/2017/01/alfonso-cuaron-children-of-men-transcript.html.

The weird thing is that people keep insisiting that it is prophetic, but it isn't. The director admits as much. Rather it is intentionally vague. It isn't actually about anything. There is no profound message but what you choose to read into it. The pro-immigration theme is the only coherent one.

[–] smoko 7 years ago

@Tin_ear ...it is intentionally vague. It isn't actually about anything.
I thought it was about what happens when a government goes too far in enacting draconian laws in the name of security. There's cruelty in the treatment of others, an underground backlash, people become distant, and so on. At least, that's what I chose to read into it.

[–] Tin_ear 7 years ago

But isn't that pretty much every dystopian-themed movie ever made? ...Oppressive governments, sad people looking for hope? For all the detail and pop culture references there isn't much there intellectually. I'm not saying it has to beat us over the head with a message, but I can't even find a coherent, interesting theme.

[–] smoko 7 years ago

@Tin_ear Dystopian movies aren't always about fascist governments. Sometimes it's a weak government and corporations have taken over, or there's no government and it's a lawless society.

[–] Tin_ear 7 years ago

We've probably digressed a bit. My qualm was that dystopian movies like this (or Brazil or Demolition Man or V For Vendetta or Logan's Run, etc) tend to fixate on a very broad, washed-out retelling of 1984 or Brave New World. They are just adventure stories with interesting scenery and take advantage of a hip genre. The director doesn't think you'll notice, and in this case, I don't even think he noticed; he stripped out the philosophy from the book, so it is kind of a husk. I mean how can there even be a glut of immigrants when the population is plummeting? Wouldn't you need people desperately? Especially young people? I assumed that was a nod to the population decline in Europe or something, but based on what I've read that was thrown in arbitrarily to seem timely.

All you have to do is name-check Orwell or call your film "dystopian" and people already assume it is much cleverer and profound than it probably is...as opposed to Clockwork Orange, or Gattaca, Blade Runner, or Minority Report which are actually trying to express something very complicated or deep through subtle ways and just as easily could take place in the present as the future.

I guess I'm trying to say it didn't take advantage of its genre at all, it used it as a crutch. It didn't explore any ideas, and it didn't even explore the old cliches very well. Considering the world was descending into terrorism and panic, and every other government on earth had collapsed, I can't blame the government for trying to restore order. But we're supposed to hate them, because they are the government, and wear riot gear and have guns.

[–] kmags84 7 years ago

Cuaron is a Philosopher, many themes are at play, whether he decided to go a different route from the Novel. I see the list of films you mentioned and while 'Brazil' is a wonderful film, none are anything like 'Children of Men', not even in the slightest. Especially with the realism. He told the viewers to make up their minds in the Kubrick type of way, which is by no means ignoring questions/answers and the general philosophy behind the film... HOWEVER, he will not answer those questions for the viewer. The best filmmakers raise more questions than they answer. This is no different

[–] Tin_ear 7 years ago

I honestly don't see themes or questions as much as pop culture reference that serve little purpose but to look clever. If there is any deep theme, philosophy, or message other than something about immigration it is muddled. I didn't need him to literally explain it like the judge character does in that movie The Bonfire of the Vanities, I needed him to explore it.

Remember in Blade Runner when the robot tracks down his creator only to find that there is no solution to his problems, that his life is meaningless, and his death is in vain? The director never actually mentions god or existentialism, but they are all implicitly brought to mind. I never had that feeling watching this film. I don't know maybe I missed something, but I can't seem to get anyone to explain it, and another fan below explicitly says there is no deeper meaning or philosophical question.

My general theory is that dystopian movies are over-scrutinized, and this film is a great example.

[–] smoothmove 7 years ago

It is about chance and identity. That is the bigger theme. The scene that really crystallizes this is when Michael Cain's character is telling the characters Kee and Miriam about how Clive Owen's character's baby passed and the effect it had on him. Rewatch that scene and I think you'll see the film through a new lense and have a greater appreciation for it.

[–] i-hate-carl 7 years ago

Why does there have to be a theme or overarching message, neatly wrapped up in a bow? i've seen this criticism a few times. Why can't it just be a chilling depiction of how fragile human society is and how it can fall apart. There's an inherent message in that.

[–] Tin_ear 7 years ago

Why does there have to be a theme or overarching message, neatly wrapped up in a bow?

There doesn't have to be. But this film made a dozen critics' top ten lists and have been endlessly analyzed and dissected as if it is really deep. It isn't. I agree with you on that, but I think we are in the minority. Slavoj Zizek--probably one of the most influential film scholars alive--devoted an entire segment of his film to this film's philosophy (I still don't get his point) while you pretty simply summed up it up as a standard dystopian flick. I think as a pop corn movie it works. It is entertaining and has great acting. But that isn't the way it seems to be remembered. People seem to recall this as prophetic or incredibly nuanced or philosophical like Dostoevsky or something, especially after Trump got elected. I dug up this quote from the director:

Children of Men is not a prophetic piece. It's just a compound of studies and essays of other people around the time [when it was made].

A film shouldn't explain itself like the Dark Knight does; that definitely is not what I was saying. I hate movies that do that. The irony here is that otherwise intelligent people seem to have read meanings that the director himself admits are not there (I point back to the interview I linked to in the original post). I was watching this film brainstorming more interesting interpretations, but the writers went with the least interesting ones possible. There is a lot of stuff to do with the genre but this film does nothing with it. To be considered one of the best movies of the century it should actually contain some profound ideas. That's why I think it is horribly overrated.

[–] Naughty-God 7 years ago

Seems to me that your beef isn't with the film but other people's reactions to it. People always infer their own interpretations from movies and whether they relate it to a current political climate or world-wide event is nothing new. I can honestly say that I know a few people who didn't like this movie for political reasons (they're on the Right side of the spectrum) and they felt this film was nothing more than Leftist Propaganda which I found strange because I didn't see anything Right or Left but rather regressive as the world these people live in is quite apocalyptic and fatalistic.

Overrated you say? It didn't even get much attention here in the States and the Academy Awards pretty much shunned it while lauding over another film I thought offered NOTHING but was highly regarded and praised, "Pan's Labyrinth".

[–] Tin_ear 7 years ago

Kind of glad I could end the IMDb message boards with one last decent discussion before they blow it up. But I digress...

Yeah, it's the insanely philosophical reactions I was referring to. The film is what it is. It is fun in the same way Logan's Run or Running Man is entertaining. But, at least according to Wikipedia, this film got a lot of critical love even if average people ignored it like the plague. The number of thinkpieces on this movie are legion. I've literally heard it this is one of the best films of the last twenty years. And the Oscars...well, they gave Crash a Best Picture Award, so I wouldn't worry too much about them.

Maybe it's a Citizen Kane situation where the hype is guaranteed to let you down. I was expecting something like Bergman or Kubrick and instead got James Cameron.

And I completely agree about Pan's Labyrinth. Unwatchable.

[–] TreeShaman (806) 4 years ago

If by "pro-immigration" you mean pro-illegal immigration, then yes, that's really the only coherent theme in this film.

[–] degree7 (821) 4 years ago

I don’t think it was pro or anti anything other than human well being.

[–] BourbonKing (5612) 4 years ago

"The weird thing is that people keep insisiting that it is prophetic, but it isn't. The director admits as much. Rather it is intentionally vague. It isn't actually about anything. There is no profound message but what you choose to read into it. The pro-immigration theme is the only coherent one."

Eh, you weren't watching the movie or paying attention to the story but rather extrapolating what you thought was a hidden "leftist" agenda", especially when your take away was "racism is bad". WTF does that even mean and where did the movie press this issue?

There is no pro-immigration theme as the story is about a country in complete lockdown as the rest of the world's super powers and neighboring Europe are in complete chaos. The refugee camps are a reflection of the conditions in the story, not some message saying that they should be set free into the general populace.

As for being prophetic, one can look at today's hysteria with regards to the reaction to COVID19 with certain factions playing the blame game on "outside forces".

[–] Ace_Spade (9334) 2 years ago

Yeah, I think part of the genius of Children of Men is in how it depicts a world going to hell in such an accurate way. It feels like we're there. Should Britain open its borders? Maybe not, as that would flood the country with too many people. But should it maybe let in some more people and treat refugees better? Yeah, probably.

I think the biggest takeaways from the movie are about staying connected to humanity. Theo starts the film detached and depressed, but slowly reawakens to the warmth of friends and family. The world needs hope and finds it in a baby. Take away all the mess we're in - any mess - and we're all human, and that core humanity and connection is what brings us forward.

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

The movie was not a fat man