Does birth need assistance of a doctor? - Dr. T & the Women (2000) Discussion

[–] FuzzyWzhe 19 years ago

WHY do you care? Is this the worst attempt at trolling or are you serious?

People made do without modern medicine for millions of years too. Dogs don't need vets when they have puppies. Humanity has survived for millions of years without brushing their teeth and using deoderant. Toilet paper is a relatively new invention. For most of human history, people were illiterate mostly because there was not such thing as writing. Films have only existed for 100 years or so, and we really don't need clothing or vaccuum cleaners either.

If you want to pop one out without a doctor, go for it, I don't really care. In this unlikely event something goes wrong - I also don't care. There's already 7 billion people on the planet, and we really don't need anymore anyhow.

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[–] Kolith 19 years ago

Humans have been around for millions of years? O_o

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[–] otto67at 19 years ago

You don't think so? How long do you think humans exist?

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[–] Bjeatles 19 years ago

Filthy humans, I shall abort you all.

Some smart, some don't.

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[–] Kolith 19 years ago

In all my classes and in all the works I've read, I've never seen any estimates that date beyond 500,000 years. Last I read, the earliest skeletons of "modern" humans found were about 160,000 years old or so. If you were referring to pseudo-humans, then I guess...they've been around for at least about 3 million years or so, if I remember correctly. But I really don't consider findings such as the Australopithecus afarensis to be comparable enough to humans to not make a distinction. But that's just me. I know plenty of people who would debate that issue.

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[–] Skaphele777 19 years ago

No, giving birth does not require a doctor, but I think that a professional is helpful in case of emergency... well necessary.

Doctors and midwives are the reason that the mortality rate of women and newborns has been dramatically reduced in the past 50 some years.

Even midwives aren't equipped with the knowledge and the equipment that doctors and hosptals have access to.

Many babies are born in cars, trains, bathroom, homes, etc. without the supervision of a professional every year. Some people opt to have their babies on deserted islands in a tidal pool... stupid in my opinion. Nonetheless, newborns find their own way out and the new mothers manage as well, by chewing the umbilical cord off like we did in the old days or something.... as nature intended, right?

I for one had my son in a hospital, after 13 visits to my OB, 4 sonograms, pitocin, an epidural, 26 hours of labor, 2 hours of pushing and an emergency c-section. The latter, to me, is the number 1 reason why it is not only smart but safer for the health of mom and baby to have a professional assist in delivering a child in a prepared hospital.

Humans have not been around for millions of years, at most 200,000.

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[–] otto67at 18 years ago

sorry, I thought on something like this:
Hominidaä:
Boringo/Kenia: 6 million
Ardipithecus ramidus 4,4
Australopithecus afarensis 3,2
Homo rudolfensis 2,4 - 1,6 east africa
Homo habilis 1,9 - 1,6 east africa
Homo antecessor 0,9 spain
Homo erectus 1,7 - 0,3 algeriea, china, java
Homo ergaster 1,8 - 1,4 east africa south africa georgia
Homo heidelbergensis 600.000 - 100.000 Germany england france ...
Homo neanderthalensis 200.000 - 30.000 europe
Homo floresiensis 100.000 - 12.000

The homo sapiens (modern human) is about 200.000 years old but the homo rudolfensis is shurely a human but not still alive :-)

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[–] aphrodisiaciix 11 years ago

Update Oct 17, 2013: 1.8 million year old human cranium (skull) and mandible (jaw) found.
http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/09012013/article/skull-find-key-to-understanding-early-human-ancestor-species

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[–] krivak2 16 years ago

About 4000 years.

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[–] lancer165 7 years ago

Kolith----

Very late as a response and you may never view this. What we know to be facts in the world of the sciences unlike the world of RELIGIONS and hand over the money faith is that science is big enough to update facts. Not interpretation in self interest by those faith guys. Discoveries are made regularly. Fossil rocks are disclosing bipedal prints form yes millions of years ago or so it is deduced. The little human like called LUCY is hailed as an originator of our species. Now these are only working thoughts and if indeed 5000 years is the age of the earth so much is really wrong.

Science is looking for that CROSSOVER. Was it a manipulation by [angels]? Was that a sin for them. The good book used by the faithful even alludes to something of that ilk. Something orally handed down over generations.

Has man's actual development been accelerated since those days of civilisation. We see the last hundred years developments almost sprinting compared to discovery ages of stone-bronze-iron.

So the progression of the standy up human may well be millions of years.

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[–] otto67at 18 years ago

Oh, come on, that's nonsense. Severage and water pipes have saved a lot more lifes than anything else. The accident surgery indisputably achives good results too, but not the obstetrics, that didn't improve until Semmelweis and has been getting worse again since then, because of sloppy hygiene, instruments, amniotic fluid puncture and perineum incision.
Ultrasonic scans are also suspected to cause premature birth. There has never been so much prematurity in history.
That is not my criticism on the film. Dr. T. pretends as if it is impossible to get a child without medical help.

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[–] !!!deleted!!! (4524359) 18 years ago

I agree with otto at everything he says except the not needing clothes stuff. Here in sweden we would freeze to death during winters without clothes no doubt about that. Now to the original poster, what's your problem? Is there some problem with your brain? Of course it is not a "MUST" but well both the baby and mother risk ALOT higher risk of dying while giving birth. I would be dead if it was not for doctors helping me out while being born. You would be surprised of how many that dies while giving birth when they don't have a doctor present.
"What's the point of living if you don't have a dick?"

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[–] anne-freaks 18 years ago

Jesus christ, you can't be serious!
Have you ever given birth to a baby, Otto?
If no, you should try and we'll see how much you can do without a help,
how much pain can you endure alone, or how you can keep yourself and your kid alive. Well yes, child-bearing was possible in the old times too but don't forget that many mother, and child died in it... it's true that i hate hospitals, and i'm afraid of doctors, but it's still better than risking everything. Your life, your baby's life, the health of you two, and the future of your family.

As for me, no matter how i hate the world in we are living, i'm happy that i have a good chance not to die in the moment in which i'm supposed to be proud, and happy that i am actually a woman.

But i agree in one thing. This movie sucks.
And the scene in the end was indeed stupid.
Oh, nevermind...
men and women will never understand each-other, and maybe this is the best for everyone.

Sorry for this hostile message, Otto,
but i had a terrible day, and i always get myself angry when a man is talking about something he can never know. Like i've said forget it.

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[–] Kolith 18 years ago

Interesting that you assume Otto is a man, given this is just a message board. hehe

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[–] JaneBingley 18 years ago

And what are the rate of survial for mother and child the last 50 years compared to 200 years ago..?

Idiot!

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[–] exploding 18 years ago

Mother's don't need doctors to give birth. This is true. But just like Fuzzy said, we live with millions of things that we don't *need*, in the hunter gatherer sense of the term.
To propose that we should all just lose doctors and give birth alone, with your main argument point being your 7 million/50 years speech, is hideously objective. Why not lose clothes? Cars? Buildings? Books? Computers? (Bet that one got to you)
We don't NEED doctors to do that stuff, just like we don't NEED all that other crud. It's not NECCESSITY. It's convinience and it's safety.
It's safer and it's easier for a doctor to assist birth. It's not needed but nor was the microwave chicken you had for lunch. Go catch your own damn chicken. Your argument almost goes against what it means to be civilised being.

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[–] JoJoSeahorse 18 years ago

Hi Otto!

Great thread - I just came upon it by accident while searching for something else. I totally agree with you - pregnancy and childbirth are not illnesses and I do not PERSONALLY believe that doctors and hospitals have any place in them. Of course I would never push my opinions onto someone else - I realise that some women like to have the reassurance. What ever works for the individual! I have four kids, and I had a midwife present for three of them, but she did not actually do anything - just stayed in the room while I did all the work! My second one was born before the midwife had time to get here; I was alone in the room and it was a totally excellent experience - wouldn't have missed it for the world! Thanks for the memories!

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[–] anne-freaks 18 years ago

It's pretty funny that you tell everyone off because of the fact that we're living in the 21th century. Well let me tell you something. You're sitting in front of your bloody computer right now, jerk.
Geez, then why don't you just leave and go back to a cave?

I would never try to give birth to a kid alone. You can never know if you are able to deliver him/her safely, or not. Why would i risk our life if i had better chances in a hospital? What if the baby is too big, or if he/she has the umbilical cord coiled on his/her neck, or if the haemorrhage can't be stopped? I should let us die, like in the old times, because labour is a natural thing? I don't say that it's better to have a big *beep* dazzle lamp between your legs, and i don't adore doctors that much, but don't forget about the alternative labour rooms.

If labour was an easy thing there wouldn't be obstetrists. It's not their hobby, you know.

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[–] JoJoSeahorse 18 years ago

Yeah, the alternative labour rooms. The hospitals I checked with all said you have to find out if you are "allowed" to use them, provided you meet certain criteria! Gee, aren't we adults?! At least in my own home I don't have to ask someone's permission to do things! And BTW, one of mine was almost 9 lbs, and another was more than 9 lbs. Do you think that was "too big"? They came out just fine, and I was able to get right up and go on with my normal acitivities because no-one had cut me. Do you know how many people have said to me "You would have never been "allowed" to have them naturally in the hospital if they were that size!" I just think its kinda sad that some women are so willing to give up control of their bodies. But like I said, each to their own. I did what worked for me :)

Drunk with the blood of baby dolls

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[–] anne-freaks 18 years ago

Don't misunderstood me, i didn't want to say that you were irresponsible, or something like that, but not everyone is so lucky than you are. You are very fortunate that you could have your baby in such a peaceful environment, as you wished, it must have been a wonderful experience.
The only thing i wished to express was the fact that unlike you, there are many mothers who wouldn't be able to give birth without medical help.
Family disasters can happen in these days too, but it doesn't happen so often like in the old times, and i think this is just fine.
(From the matter there are plenty of *beep* doctors, one of them almost killed me and my mother when i was born, but i still think that if you have a reliable doc, you have a good chance to avoid bigger problems during labour.)

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[–] anne-freaks 18 years ago

Oh, i wanted to say, don't misunderstand me.
*beep* i will never learn using english properly.

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[–] JoJoSeahorse 18 years ago

I think your English is just fine! And thanks for your reply - most people don't mind being really nasty to me about my way of doing things. I never judge other people; some of the ones who condemn me for giving birth at home think nothing of smoking, drinking and using drugs while pregnant. Sometimes I think some of the best prenatal "care" is what you can give yourself, if you know what I mean :)

Drunk with the blood of baby dolls

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] anne-freaks 18 years ago

Oh, thanks. Well i'm trying very hard. Actually my english teacher sucks that's why i chose personal training instead and that's why i'm so chatty. :)

As for smoking and drinking during pregnancy i hate those mothers who don't give a *beep* about the individual life depending on them and growing in their body. Perhaps they just forgot condom while having sex but it doesn't change the fact that the baby is already alive and if a woman decided to give birth to a child she is responsible for it's health. What's the sense in having a baby who
can't have a healthy body and a normal life? Don't condemn me but i wouldn't have a baby if i knew that he/she was ill. Even if it's not my fault. There are such terrible diseases that i would rather live my life without children than having a kid who isn't able to grow as others grow and who needs all day care. It could ruin a whole family and that child wouldn't be happy neither. It's a hard task but if i'll have a family because of my own decisions i want it to be perfect for everyone no matter how much work it needs. Am i right?

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[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] anne-freaks 18 years ago

As for abortion i don't think that anyone has the right to condemn those women who decide to break their pregnancy. I just hate to see people demonstrating histerically against abortion. There are mostly crappy old women and old men who didn't have the chance when they were young. I don't want to say that abortion is the right thing to do moreover it's terrible just to think about it but there are times when you can't decide on having a baby. For example when the family has no money, when the mother is underaged, when the mother/child is ill or of course when the mother was raped. Every women has her own excuse. And even if they chose the wrong way it's unnecesarry to punish them because they suffer just enough during the whole procedure. It's painful both emotionally and phisically no matter if they were at fault or not.

Anyway ... i'm glad that nowadays contraceptives are quite effective.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] IridescentTranquility 18 years ago

Good on you, Mommy Seahorse! When I was little I was fascinated by birth and I watched all the programmes I could about it, but now I've come to see it completely differently. I also (due to a bad experience I witnessed - it didn't happen to me personally) have almost a phobia of hospitals. I know it's irrational, but it's never left me. If I had a baby right now (assuming everything was OK), I'm that scared of hospitals, it's the last place I'd want to be.

I'm only twenty-two and still single but I feel very strongly that we shouldn't treat normal birth as dangerous and I think that we should have more confidence in ourselves as humans that (broadly speaking) the human body can deliver a baby. It seems that doctors are more involved in the States with birth, whereas in the UK it seems to be midwife led for normal births, with doctors to be referred to when things go wrong. I've no wish to slate doctors, but I heard a theory that midwives watch and wait for things to happen, whereas doctors are trained to "treat" the patient and feel the need to be seen to do things.

My dad (and his six older brothers and sisters were all born at home between 1938 and 1951 and now I really wish my gran was still here so I could ask if she was "allowed" to give birth at home.

I sense, though, that there is a movement away from "standard" hospital-type births, although I won't deny that there will always be a place for them (a friend of the family was induced at 34 weeks earlier this year and ended up with a caesarian because - obviously - her little boy wasn't quite ready to come out, but he's still absolutely gorgeous) because women are thinking outside the traditional procedures.

"If we go on like this, you're going to turn into an Alsatian again."

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[–] JoJoSeahorse 17 years ago

Thanks for your input - you sound really smart. I'm sure that when you are ready to have a baby you will know what is best for you :)

Drunk with the blood of baby dolls

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[–] anne-freaks 17 years ago

I envy you for your confidence.
I also have a few years until i could decide on having a baby but i'm really afraid of delivery already. My mother told me a few things about the whole thing and about the mistakes the doctor did so now i'm like "no way, i can't do that!".
Not just because of the pain but because of the risks.
Am i a coward?

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[–] JoJoSeahorse 17 years ago

Not at all! I'm not sure where you live, but its a good idea to check out all of your options before you do decide to actually have a baby. Are there home births or alternative birthing centres where you live? You can discuss your concerns with potential caregivers beforehand. Just remember its YOUR body and you are in control! And its best not to listen to someone else - everyone's experiences are different, just as everyone's needs and preferences for their care are different. A good practitioner will know that what is good for one person will not necessarily be good for another. And if I had listened to my own mother, I'm sure I would never have had my four darlings!

Drunk with the blood of baby dolls

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[–] anne-freaks 17 years ago

I live in Budapest and unfortunatly the health care here, in Hungary is like some kind of disaster. No money therefore no developement, no good doctors etc...
Alternative birthing is not completely accepted here either. I know only one guy who was born at home but that was because the ambulance didn't get there in time.
So i have no idea but who knows... maybe the situation will be better when my turn comes.

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[–] ijhuhuy 17 years ago

A LOT can go wrong in birth. It's not uncommon that either the mother of the child dies so yes having a doctor is sickenly wise. I also think women had some assistance by expirienced women in the past.

"Who died and made you president Nixon?"
- Peter Griffin

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[–] elcanadiana 16 years ago

in most traditions and cultures, women in labor had assistance with delivery from the "elder" women. We call these midwives and doulas now.

www.vhemt.com - this is MY opinion on birth.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] Movester 16 years ago

These things depend largely on where on the planet you live. Sadly, at the spots where doctors are needed most, fewest are provided.
In the Western world these days, roughly 80% of births can safely be done without doctors, providing well-qualified personell have followed pregnancy and providing that medical personell is not further away than roughly half an hour. I'll refrain from delving into the details.

Your comparing 7 million years with 50 years sounds quite uninformed. Maybe you're trolling? At any rate, birth related deaths have been reduced dramatically these 50 years. Doctors?

OK, "I have to bring..." is one of these silly ways of putting things, but hardly an active choice made by the filmmakers to upgrade the doctor's role. I think it just reflects the silliness in prevailing attitudes.

Though the villagers don't need Gere with this birth, how were they to know this _before_ the birth? Are you going to criticize these children for taking the doctor with them? Isn't that a bit stern?

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] otto67at 14 years ago

"Up until the 20th century, one in every four mothers died at child birth."

Who told you such tales? Most mothers had more than 4 children, not like today, only one or two. If they had died after every fourth child, then there would have been no more grandmothers, and the remaining children were born of the fathers alone :) My parents both had more than four siblings who were not born in a hospital, which was simply not common, and both my grandmothers have become older then 90. And if you would try to think for yourself, you would realize that your numbers are purely nonsense.
A look at the Wikipedia will do:
"In developed countries, the maternal mortality decreased since the beginning of the 20th century from 300 to about 8-12 per 100,000 because of improved medical care."
300 per 100,000 is not 'every fourth' but every 400th! So much for arithmetic.
It's a good thing to have a doctor in near, if there is a problem, but far the most births are without any problems. I think, that every mother should be free to decide.
The movie suggest/implies (I don't know the right word) that women need help because they are so dependent, and this statement I did not like, but this discussion shows that the movie may not be as wrong as I thought :)
Still, the movie is terribly boring :)

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[–] cableaddict 11 years ago

Interesting statistic:

The USA has the highest percentage of doctor-assisted (not mid-wives) births of any country in the world.

It also has one of the highest infant-mortality rates. - literally almost the worst of any "western" nation.

This is a fact.

------------

Midwives are a very good idea. Doctors & all their high-cost baggage? Not so much.

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[–] xanxei 10 years ago

Throughout all of history, until some time in the 1800s, childbirth was the leading cause of death in women of childbearing age. Some 300.000 women still die each year, 99% of them in developing countries. So while, sure, childbirth is natural, it's also really fncking dangerous. There are about a million things that can go wrong.

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