MovieChat Forums > The House of Mirth (2000) Discussion > Unrealistic stupidity!

Unrealistic stupidity!

posted 17 years ago by Bladerunner
14 replies | jump to latest

When Lilly goes to see Grace and asks her to loan her the money due to her from her aunt's legacy, Grace tells her she won't help her because she wants to communicate to Lilly the "folly of her course". What in the hell is the folly of Lilly's course? Lilly is no longer gambling and she has NEVER slept with men for money, what is Grace talking about? Why doesn't Lilly tell her the TRUTH!!! Why does she just stand up and say "Thank you, Grace?" It is so STUPID!

I simply do not understand why Lilly won't defend her honor! Why won't she tell Grace that she is moral and pure?

Another thing, why won't Lilly tell the deception that Gus Trenor pulled on her? She invested money with him, legitimately, legally and above board. There was NO agreement beforehand that Lilly would be giving Gus any of her "favors". He told her that her investment was making money, and then when she spurned his nasty little advances he tells her that her investment didn't make money! Well, why doesn't she tell him that she wants him to PROVE that her investment didn't make money? Why doesn't she tell others that he told her that he was investing her money, but instead he was giving her money only to suddenly inform her that it was money given to her by him and she owed him sex? Why doesn't she expose his nasty little plot?! Why doesn't she just tell him "too bad", or that she doesn't believe him that it did it, or she spent the money to pay her debts and she cannot pay him back and that is the just payment for his cruel lies and vulgar, sexual plan.

Why does she give Gus TEN THOUSAND?! She only "owes" him nine, and she gave him a thousand to begin with! She only "owes" him eight, why give him ten?

It makes no sense and it is unrealistic and STUPID!

This whole thing smacks of Bartleby, by Herman Melville. In that it is one person's (seeming) total commitment to their own destruction and the havoc that ensues around them.

What was the point of this story? I don't get it at all. If she was trying to be good, to not simply marry a rich man so she could be perceived as a serious person a good person who is not just out for an easy life, then why would she allow her name to be so egregiously assailed? Why would she allow people to believe such horrid things about her? Why wouldn't she expose the monsters that were trying to exploit her, and allow them to seem innocent and her guilty?

Dumb.

I understand some of the themes and the purpose for events that occur, but the unrealistic actions that Lilly takes confuses and eventually utterly destroys the impact or relevancy of her choices.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

[–] hernan_amado 17 years ago

Yes, I agree with you on all counts, but you must realize that women at that time weren't allowed to complain that much. Men had sheer power over them, and they were jsut allowed to be naive and stupid like Lili was. Grace hated Lily, because she lvoed Lawrence, and that's what made her miserable. Besides that, she was the one who told Aunt Julia she played cards for money.

[–] Bladerunner 17 years ago

Actually women were *made* to be ignorant and naive, or rather they were not given the opportunities that men were to be educated and informed. However, a woman's reputation was all she had, and if someone besmirched her character, she would have to speak up. All you have to do is consider the other women in Lily's life, especially Bertha Dorset and Carry Fisher; both of them speak up and speak loud.

To me the most despicable person in the whole story is Grace, but certainly Bertha runs a close second. Still, I think the story is more about the fact that Lily — more or less — sabotages herself. She says she wants this certain life, but when she has it in the palm of her hand — as she did with Percy Gryce — she blows it by doing something to ruin it. With Percy it was not showing up at church that morning. Also, her honesty gets her into trouble. She probably should have lied to Aunt Julia and denied playing card. Also, she loves Lawrence, but she won't let him know that she doesn't need a "rich" life. She doesn't let him know that she doesn't need all that, that she would be happy with him whatever he makes.

I think Lily is a victim of her own desires, but she lacks the conviction to get what she wants, and she lacks the discipline to live the kind of life that Lawrence (and her better self) thinks she should live.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] hernan_amado 17 years ago

Yes, Lily was very ridiculous at times. I was like saying "Come on, wake up!! don't let them do it". She should've said yes to Rosendale to get the money she needed. Then she could've gotten the money elsewhere, she should've blackmailed Gus. She should've told him that if he complains, she'd tell his wife that he wanted sex with her. That would've ruined their marriage and Gus of course.
she should've accepted Lawrence Seldon when she had the chance to, but she was an idiot. She should've shownh the letter to Bertha, as soon as she got them, or when she was on teh Cruise to the Meditarranean.
Lily was too stupid, but anyway, I felt for her a little. I liked Gillian A. She was great, but the part when she is in tears is a bit overdone.

[–] Bladerunner 17 years ago

I agree, Gillian was very good, but I don't think the tears were overdone, simply because women cried like that back then. Too many times we try to portray people of a bygone era as they are today, and that may be more politically correct or might make the protagonist more palpable to the audience, but it isn't accurate. Whether or not women really meant it when they cried like that, or whether they did it because it was "expected" of them, who knows? It was a nice scene though because it was realistic for that time.

There were a lot of those "why didn't she do this or that" situations though, weren't there?

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

[–] hernan_amado 17 years ago

Yes, But why didn't she just say to Lawarence that she wanted to marry him?? Just that!!!!!!!!!! Where were both so stupid?' There wasn't anything preventing that from happening? just their studidity. Lili Bart says to him"it's stupid of to be disingenious? or something.
They were idiots. If they'd been clever enough to stand up for themself, none of the disaster would've happened.
Gillian cried a bit much when she said "I have tried, I have tried hard, but life is difficult", But I love this film anyway.
The script is so elegant and beautiful, don't you think so? That's what I call "good English"

[–] Bladerunner 17 years ago

Yea, it was good, there is no doubt about that. I think the fact that they both were so smart; or rather they both possessed a great intellect, yet they were utterly stupid when it came to matters of the heart. Perhaps, more than anything else that is what Wharton wanted to comment on... that sometimes a person's ego, pride, whatever can serve to keep them from the very things they want the most. Lily sabotaged herself at every turn, and in the beginning I thought it was because she wanted to so she could have Lawrence, but later it seems to turn into a habit, almost some kind of self-imposed condemnation for crimes or sins unknown.

Really, according to Lawrence and herself her sin is *wanting* the "easy" life, yet she never achieves that, but she still atones for the desire of wanting it. It's like paying off a debt you haven't even accrued, which is exactly what she does in paying that money to Gus Trenor, a thousand more than she even OWES. She is constantly paying for sins and debts she doesn't really owe. It's frustrating, but I'm sure it did mirror many of the values and mores of that time. It simply doesn't ring true; it is a morality tale with no morality vis-à-vis the reality of the character's actions.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

[–] hernan_amado 17 years ago

I agree with you. If someone really checked this script, they should've known that Lily was way too stupid. It didn't make any sense for her to do all she did. She gives Gus more than she owes, but I guess she did it because she knows she's going to kill herself by taking those pills, or by increasing that the lady's medication.

[–] Bladerunner 17 years ago

The problem I had was we are never given enough information as to WHY Lily is doing what she is doing. Why does she kill herself? I can guess, I can conjecture, but that is all we can do.

The money thing is simply stupid, IMHO. Her problem, the bane of her existence is the fact that her reputation is soiled in society, why not try to rectify that, rather that actually FEEDING the trolls who are doing it?

The author has admitted that it wasn't her best book, or the best denouement that might have been, so maybe it is simply stupid afterall...

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

[–] hernan_amado 17 years ago

Yes, but why does lily refuse to be helped by Rosendale? I know that she didn't want to be compromised again, but that's ridiculous. Why did she tell Aunt Julia the truth? she clearly said to Gus, and she dares not tell her aunt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that's too bad. It was too bad for her to be honest.

[–] theninthgate 17 years ago

Do you remember what the price would be for accepting the help from Rosedale, though?

[–] starsleaveheaven 16 years ago

Point one: Grace loved Selden, and hated Lily because Selden wanted her, not Grace. Also, Grace blames Lily for Aunt Julia's death, and by not giving her the money, she is communicating that she finds Lily's behavior deplorable.
- She says "Thank you, Grace" because she is trying to preserve decorum, as was custom back in that era. It would have been exceedingly hard for her to go to Grace in the first place, so she's basically trying to save face.

Point two: Why she won't tell Grace she's moral and pure. (although that fact is up for debate). Because it wouldn't matter to Grace, just like she tells Rosedale... the same reason her aunt basically disinherited her, because it DOESN'T MATTER what the truth is, it only matters what people SAY. And especially by the time she went to Grace, it was much too late.

Point three: Gus Trenor. Again, back then it was about propriety. Gus Trenor is a wealthy, reputable, married man. She was a woman who had a REPUTATION for looking for a husband--she was a single woman. Not only that, Judy and Gus Trenor were the creme de la creme of society, and nobody would have believed Lily over Gus. Things were wayyyy different back then. And back then it wasn't a woman's place to say 'prove it to me.' Especially one who knows little to nothing about business as Lily herself admits.

Point four: money. I don't recall her giving him a thousand dollars (unless you're speaking of what he invested, which she says she 'thought' was her money but wasn't). Either that or 'what's another thousand on top of that.' Plus, she STILL had gambling debts. She tells Selden at Mrs. Hatch's that she owes the whole ten thousand and more. (in the book she's a much bigger gambler.. she loses nine thousand her first night at Bellomont).

Point five: why would she allow it. Basically, it comes back to propriety. She was the person she was because she loved Selden and because he loved her. She wouldn't out Bertha Dorset because Selden's name was attached to the letters. And the damage was done by then, anyhow. The upper crust of society was very choosy and women like Bertha Dorset and Judy Trenor controlled it. In the book Lily thinks of Judy as the one person who would never turn her back on Lily... quite the opposite is the case. And they say from the very beginning that Bertha Dorset is 'dangerous.' That's why.

"but the unrealistic actions that Lilly takes confuses and eventually utterly destroys the impact or relevancy of her choices."

I completely, completely disagree. For all the reasons previously stated, and more.

[thank goodness] it's unrealistic today. But not back then.

If you haven't done so already, read the novel. I think it would give you more answers.

[–] fsf1922 16 years ago

Why does she give Gus TEN THOUSAND?! She only "owes" him nine, and she gave him a thousand to begin with! She only "owes" him eight, why give him ten?

She owes him $9,000 but in the book it says that she has other bills to pay which amount to $1,000. I guess they just wanted to simplify things in the film.

[–] randommovies2002 10 years ago

There have already been several excellent reponses to your questions, but I don't think anyone has addressed the fact that if Lily had actually tried to defend herself, she couldn't have "won"; Bertha's social power was too strong for Lily (without using the letters).

As for defending herself to her aunt, and to Grace, that wouldn't have helped either because ultimately Lily was still guilty of gambling (and losing a LOT of money), which was sort of at the root of this whole mess anyhow. Her aunt strongly disapproved the gambling, so regardless of the gossip not being true, the gambling was true, and the debts put Lily into the vulnerable position that caused her to become compromised with Gus.

What was the point of this story? I don't get it at all.

The point is that women like Lily who who weren't financially independent, who didn't play by society's rules, were entirely at the mercy of social pressures, vindictive women, unscrupulous and predatory men, etc.