Catherine Breillat is pile of.... - Romance (1999) Discussion

[–] gudpaljoey 17 years ago

Agree totally. The worst piece of anti-erotica I've ever seen. An absolute cure for lusty thoughts, and a pathetic attempt to cloak the film makers mushy mind in pretention. If there ever was a film maker who should have her camera taken away it's this Catherine Breillat. Total waste of everything.

reply

[–] sarahllsjones 17 years ago

yep, she is a total waste. i cant understand how she got a place in Columbia University.

reply

[–] eroticnights 17 years ago

I totally disagree; Catherine is one of the best directors at the moment. She's brave, she's honest, and yes at times, difficult to understand. But few directors attempt to go where she does. Most just want to make a film, or tell a story. Catherine uses her medium to explore sexuality, and does so in a very dry way. Though there is allot of sex in her films, it's not very provocative.

Like how in media, with the whole "sex sells" mentality. They try to make it steamy, seductive, alluring. Catherine takes away the mystique of sex till all you see is a bunch of flawed human beings using sex as a weapon. No erotica, nothing to tease; just people forever tied to desires which even they can’t understand.

reply

[–] sarahllsjones 17 years ago

Nope she is not brave or honest but yes totally impossible to understand (i doubt if she herself understands what she is saying).
I would have called her brave and honest if she had been an American director, but she is French, where nudity and open sexuality in movies is not a oh-my-god phenomena.
I dont have a problem with sex being not erotic or provocative, my problem is that she is not able to project, make it clear what she is trying to explore.
if u are not able to say clearly and in a way that others are able to comprehend then you have failed in whatever you are doing.
for example, you might have some very good ideas on dynamics of husband-wife relationship but instead of stating them clearly you mumble jumble then what good are those ideas. thats my only complaint.

reply

[–] rs-61 17 years ago

Breillart does not take class at Columbia, she teaches there! or at least used to-
"Serves as a master teacher of film at Columbia University and the School of Visual Arts in New York for a program called "On Set With French Cinema" (Fall 2003)." How is this possible? Even though she is admittedly extremely intelligent and an articulate opponent of film censorship she has absolutely no talent whatsoever as a filmaker.

reply

[–] sarahllsjones 17 years ago

when I said she takes a class at Columbia I meant she teachers there, sorry for the confusion. How she got a job there is beyond comprehension.

reply

[–] rs-61 17 years ago

Perhaps she uses Romance as an example of how not to make a film. Actually very instructive in this sense. Film students can learn more from watching bad films than good ones and most film students could do a better job than what Breillart did in this one.

reply

[–] veggie_dave 16 years ago

>Even though she is admittedly extremely intelligent and an articulate opponent
>of film censorship she has absolutely no talent whatsoever as a filmaker.

And that's why she makes a great teacher.

'Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.'

reply

[–] tubman1 16 years ago

"I totally disagree; Catherine is one of the best directors at the moment. She's brave, she's honest, and yes at times, difficult to understand. But few directors attempt to go where she does. Most just want to make a film, or tell a story. Catherine uses her medium to explore sexuality, and does so in a very dry way. Though there is allot of sex in her films, it's not very provocative.

Like how in media, with the whole "sex sells" mentality. They try to make it steamy, seductive, alluring. Catherine takes away the mystique of sex till all you see is a bunch of flawed human beings using sex as a weapon. No erotica, nothing to tease; just people forever tied to desires which even they can’t understand."

Seen it with Neil LaBute's work, and it's as tiresome now as it was then. Yes, Ms. Breillat, you have nothing but contempt for women and you think men are all parasitic dominating pigs. A film maker who's message essentially boils down to nothing more than "I hate everyone" doesn't interest me. I didn't find a single thing about this movie remotely believable or interesting. The men and women in this movie bear no resemblance to any person I've ever met, and they're certainly not the majority.

If Breillat hates the human race with this much passion, she should just go live in a hut in the wilderness and save the rest of us from this tiresome crap that's been covered before, and better, by real directors.

Here, I'll spoil the movie for anyone who hasn't seen it. Every male character is a sick twisted pervert and women like men to treat them like crap. There you go. Feel enriched?

reply

[–] Wilde_child 8 years ago

No resemblance to real people? Really? You should go out more and open your mind.
Breillat is one of the most brilliant filmmakers of her generation.

reply

[–] CahillSellers 17 years ago

I'm in complete agreement with you. I think the most irritating aspect of her films, no, not films, a bunch of shots pieced together would be more accurate, is the fact that she thinks her close-ups of child birth and sexual penetration are these EXTREME images that will outrage the audience in shock- and-awe. Well guess what? The Europeans aren't in awe, the Americans aren't shocked, and the rest of the world simply doesn't care. Her feminist philosophy is nothing new and has been more fully expressed in much better films.
And the Spielberg comparison is a bullseye, especially when it comes to the fanbase. Just as Breillat's denfenders try to disarm her critics by accusing them of sexism, I see the same thing happen with Spielberg. "Oh, you didn't think Schindler's List was a masterpiece? YOU'RE AN ANTI-SEMITE!" (and yes, I have been on the receiveing end of that accusation because of my thoughts on that film, and ended up being defended by the professor teaching the class, who was a Holocaust survivor who agreed with me.) "You thought Saving Private Ryan was a cliched pile of *beep*? Don't you support our troops?! YOU HATE VETERANS!" Breillat's fanbase does the same thing. In one spirited argument with a female friend who, for some God-awful reason loves her films, claimed I didn't like the film because I couldn't handle the "in-your-face feminism."
Which, of course, I had to reply with, "No, I love feminist chicks, especially when they're in my face."
But seriously, these films are terrible. And the only thing I find shocking about this person is the fact they actually let her teach a class on a subject she's so completely inept at. Does she use Uwe Boll and Michael Bay as guest lecturers? I suppose Columbia will soon let Drew Barrymore and Keanu Reeves teach an acting class as well.
It's kinda sad, really.

"But, hey, that's me, I could be wrong."

reply

[–] sarahllsjones 17 years ago

lol!!! imagine Keanu Reeves teaching students!! I guess just like Spielberg has a massive media machine behind him, Catherine too has big admirers behind her, no pun intended, who praise her to appear intellectual and chic. she is bringing a bad name to excellent French cinema and nothing else. people who are not so familiar with French movies watch hers and assume all French movies are like that... mindless nudity.
by the way, Spielberg has past his prime, if ever he was at his prime, and we should really stop treating him as god. trust me there are tens of directors who are much, much better than him.

reply

[–] CahillSellers 17 years ago

Keanu (in a "Ted" Theodore Logan voice): "Pop quiz, hot shots, you're supposed to show some sort of emotion in a scene... what do you do? WHAT do you do?"
A student throws his hand up: "Uhhhmmm... stare vacantly into the distance and deliver your lines like a child learning to read?"
Five minute pause.
Keanu: "Yes..."

I'm equally worried that she's giving French cinema a bad name, and not only that, I'm also worried she's giving female directors a bad name. Between her, Peneolope Spheeris, and Katherine Bigelow, that's an uphill battle I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy. LILIANA CAVANI AND MARY HERRON, I IMPLORE YOU BOTH, CHANNEL THE SPIRITS OF IDA LUPINO AND DORIS WISHMAN AND BRING ME HER HEAD!!!

And if you think Spielberg's too powerful now with the massive media machine that claims his films are so great that they can be shown on TV uncut, what's going to happen if he gets the Scientologists behind him? I'm forseeing a megalomanical studio system that not only keeps feeding the already overstuffed, but also starves anyone who criticizes the food, or wants a different dish. I'm praying that the (somewhat) affordable technology thats now available will let other cooks whip up something more delicious without even needing the established kitchens. Okay, I officially stop with the food analogies...

NOW!

(raises his glass)
Here's to the future, because at this point, there's nowhere to go but up.
(throws it at the head of the table, Barry Lyndon-style.)

DAMN IT, I was just one sentence away from finishing and I made another food reference...

"But, hey, that's me, I could be wrong."

reply

[–] bluezorrs 17 years ago

oh for heavens sake -sarahlljones- is there no end to your inane, barely literate drivel.to deal with your last post bit by bit; why shouldn't keanu reeves make at least an adequate teacher of students? we both recognise him because he's an actor but neither of us actually know the guy. i'm not a great fan of spielberg but he's been making entertaining and extremely popular movies for four decades. it is absurd to suggest that a "media machine" no matter how large is even partly respobnsible for this. remember,you just can't fool the public all the time.i suppose by now you've guessed that i'm a big fan of catherine breillat.too right i am.now that ingmar bergman(how do you get on with him by the way;specifically "persona"?)is no longer with us i can think of no other director who deals with the subjects sex/sexual politics as honestly and as intelligently and with as much integrity as miss breillat.does what i say sound intellectual and chic? and,finally,couldn't we at least agree that people who after viewing a number of breillat movies go on to conclude that "all french movies are like that" are just a little bit stupid.

reply

[–] CahillSellers 17 years ago

Wow, I can't believe someone made a "inane, barely literare drivel" accusation while defending Breillat in the same post. Granted, its not like it was towards me or anything, but jeez... never thought I'd ever see that.
And just when I thought it couldn't get any worse, you actually asked the question "Why shouldn't Keanu Reeves make at least an adequate teacher of students?" It might have something to do with the plain and simple fact that HE CAN'T ACT. In case you didn't get the unpleasant experience of sitting through the torturously horrible Johnny Mneumonic, he pretty much proved that he was too wooden and emotionally blank to play a friggin' ROBOT!
And yes, Spielberg entertains a lot of people and his movies are extremely popular, but none of those factors prove that any of his recent movies are any good. Duel and Jaws were made a looooong time ago. But then on the other hand, Spielberg did bring us "On The Lot," and we should all be grateful for that. I mean, without that show, unfunny viral video clips would only be on the internet, but now they're also on TV and coming soon to a theater near you!

But as for other directors who have given us much more compelling and intriguing views into the world of sexual politics...
Abel Ferrara's "Mary" and "Ms. 45," Takashi Miike's "Audition," David Lynch's "Inland Empire," the Urotsukidoji series, Mary Herron's "I Shot Andy Warhol" (which explores the equally compelling relationship between extremist feminist lesbians and misogynistic gay men, a minefield if I ever saw one) and "The Notorious Bettie Page," Steven Shainberg's "Secretary," Akihiko Shiota's "Moonlight Whispers," the eternally underrated "Baise-Moi," Meir Zarchi's "I Spit on Your Grave/Day of the Woman," Luis Bunuel's "Belle du Jour" and "El (This Strange Passion)," Truffaut's "Jules and Jim," Stanley Kubrick's "Lolita" and "Eyes Wide Shut" and many, many others, but there's a few that fall into the post-Bergman,(hopefully soon to be post-) Breillant time period.
But Catherine Breillant's career proves one thing, the only thing worse than a one-trick pony is a one-trick pony who's not even good at her one trick.

Oh, and if my plea to Cavani and Herron was heard, please take out Jane Campion too... thanks, babes.

"But, hey, that's me, I could be wrong."

reply

[–] bluezorrs 17 years ago

so,non-actors/bad actors can't teach acting? why ever not! i,m not so sure that there is any factor that could "prove" a recent spielberg movie or any movie for that matter to be any good or bad as the case may be. but let us move on to the divine catherine. "brief crossing" has a personal resonance for me because i,too,as a young lad was seduced by an older woman on a cross-channel ferry.the movie brought it all back.i have not seen a movie that deals with misogyny in such an intelligent and compelling way as does "perfect love" and when it comes to the things that guys will say to girls in order to get their legover then the first half of "fat girl" is a master class. thankyou for your list of "sexual politics" movies. i haven't seen them all but "jules et jim" is truffaut's masterpiece; "baise-moi",on the other hand,should be knocked back down into the hole from which it emerged; "lolita" is one of those novels that are unfilmable simply because humbert's sexual predilection was for "nymphets" (7-11yr old girls) and would have been sexually repulsed by the widening hips and budding breasts of a sexually precocious 14yr old.i took this prejudice to the movie,possibly a mistake. i loved "secretary" and enjoyed "belle de jour" as well as "eyes wide shut" and "i shot andy warhol" my own recommendation for a seriously sexy french movie would be "ennui" can't remember the directors name.

reply

[–] CahillSellers 17 years ago

well, I suppose in a sense of "What not to do" he could teach a class.
as for explorations on misogyny, I'd check out "In The Company of Men,"
good, but a little slow moving. Not pace wise, but its one of those films where when the scene should be over, the shot lingers for a few beats too long, not for a sense of pace or anything, but just because, well, I don't know, just because.
I have the feeling I really stand alone when it comes to "Baise Moi," (the critics dismiss it as exploitative violent porn and the fans praise it for being exploitative violent porn, I think its an extremist, grotesque caricature of sexual relations, a high speed "I Spit On Your Grave."). But that's fine, I went through the same thing with "Bad Lieutenant." I've heard of "Ennui" but dont know much about it, I'll check it out...
But with Briellant, I stand by my original statement, she doesn't make movies, she glues a bunch of shots together and calls it a film. She's pretty much Kevin Smith with subtitles.
But to each their own...
and thanks for having a difference of opinion with me without it resorting to namecalling and personal insults, thats rare on the imdb.

"But, hey, that's me, I could be wrong."

reply

[–] uurtamo 16 years ago

I agree enough with what you're saying to take those movies that I haven't seen in your list and add it to the list of movies I should see. However, I was really very disappointed with Baise-Moi -- I wouldn't call it exploitative, just plain bad.

I didn't believe the motivations, I had no sympathy or even empathy for the main characters, and I thought that it was a mess overall. It really resembled a movie overly impressed with its own ideas, without fairly executing them for the viewer. Most everything intended to have been done well has been done much better elsewhere.

For what it's worth, I'm glad that Baise-Moi was made, simply because it allows people to have arguments about it -- in that sense it was a success. It also placed the "what I can get away with" bar at about the right height, which is a good thing.

s.

reply

[–] CahillSellers 16 years ago

Oh, believe me, I'm not saying Baise Moi was some sort of milestone in cinema, and I'm not even saying it was particularly well made but I felt it had enough going for it (beyond penetration shots) to at least be discussed and argued over, as you said. It was sloppy on even the most BASIC of technical levels, making Bad Lieutenant look like 2001. But I thought that actually helped the movie, giving it an effective, sleazy exploitation porn feel to it. But I fully understand why a person wouldn't like it without resorting to any sort of ridiculous dismissals like "oh you just didn't get it" or "you just couldn't HANDLE it," which is more than a lot of Breillat fanatics* are willing to give to her critics.

*Please note I'm talking about the fanatics, which are different from the fans. Fans are people who enjoy, appreciate and recommend an artist's work. Fanatics believe that anyone who doesn't agree with them must either be ignorant and/or stupid. Fans discuss and argue, fanatics fight and insult. For some good examples of the difference between the two, check out the Donnie Darko discussion boards.

But back to the discussion at hand...
I've always had a soft spot for anyone with the audacity to pick up a camera and just make a film, whether they realy know what they're doing or not, or even if they haven't completely figured out what the hell they're even making. Budget and preplanning be damned, FULL SPEED AHEAD!. I'll take a flawed little crapper with energy and spunk (no pun intended) over that Breillat's dull, self-indulgent bull*beep* any day of the week and twice on the Sabbath.

And if you like movies that set the "what I can get away with" bar at new levels, I strongly recommend the Urotsukidoji saga, which was not only unprecedented with what could be depicted onscreen, but completely tore apart the limits of what a movie could be. You're either going to love these movies, or want the creators, cast and crew shot, not to mention going after me for recommending it. Enjoy!

"But, hey, that's me, I could be wrong."

reply

[–] sarahllsjones 17 years ago

okay, my posts here could be inane, barely literate drivel, but they make sense to me so I will continue to posts messages here as long as I want.

Coming back to Keanu Reeves, I dont have anything against him, he can do whatever he wants, and i wish him all the best.
You say that Spielberg is making entertaining and popular movies so obviously he must be doing something right. I beg to differ with you. After saving private ryan, which itself wasnt a great movie, he has directed these films and I would be really surprised if you called even one of them a good film: War of the Worlds (2005); The Terminal (2004); Catch Me If You Can (2002); Minority Report (2002); Artificial Intelligence: AI (2001); The Unfinished Journey (1999)
He was good, no doubt about that, but, as i said in my previous post, he is past his prime, and when we write anything about him we should keep in mind that he hasnt directed a decent work in about eight years.
What i want people, and especially critics, is to stop treating him like some maestro, that is all.
we can be a fan of anybody or appreciate anybody's work, no harm in that, but i do not think catherine treats any subject with honesty, intelligently or with integrity (But, hey, that's me, I could be wrong).
no, you do not 'sound' intellectual and chic because you really like her works and are not pretending like some people do.
when i said that some people might draw wrong conclusions about french cinema after watching her films, I meant people who are not that much familiar with french films, remember there are not many people who watch foreign films.

reply

[–] Wilde_child 8 years ago

Well said. I regret reading the boards on her films here. So much narrow mindedness. Cinema is to make you uncomfortable, make you think. Catherine accomplishes that wonderfully.

reply

[–] reverb_88 16 years ago

"she is, just like steven speilberg, a highly overated director."

Hahahahhaahahaahaa.

reply

[–] sarahllsjones 16 years ago

lol, i am right, eh?

reply

[–] lubin-freddy 16 years ago

... watch French cinema, or know much about it. While American films are generally plot driven, French films more often are character driven, or deal in nuances of atmosphere. I wonder how many of the negative posters would have seen a French film if it didn't promise SEX (just as most Americans knew Bergman in the '50s through "Summer With Monika", which was marketed as European nudity).

This film, as Breillat's other works, is challenging, and doesn't always work. But it's fascinating to see an honest film dealing with sexuality, from a perspective different that the male / heterosexual one we're used to. AS a male heterosexual, I'm interested in seeing a female perspective (even though it would be wrong to view Breillat as speaking FOR any other women than herself), beyond the usual cultural dichotomy: Men want Sex, Women want Romance.

Film culture is certainly richer with Breillat's films.

"Sometimes you have to take the bull by the tail, and face the truth." G. Marx

reply

[–] sarahllsjones 16 years ago

I am no expert on french cinema, or any cinema for that matter, but i have seen some french movies and i love their movies, but i just cannot stand Breillat's movies. I do not think there is anything challenging or honest about somebody (in this case Breillat) rambling on and on about some stupid theory she thinks she needs to share with the world. i have theories on each and every possible topic but i do not go around boring others with my
supposedly brilliant analyis. if she thinks the world needs a different take on a subject than put it in a way that doesnt bore others to death or at the very least doesnt turn them off. and finally i think directors like Breillat give a bad name to the world-class and well-respected french cinema.

reply

[–] davidcs45 14 years ago

Finally, someone standing up for the poor director. She's entitled to express herself and I only wish I understood enough frech to watch it without subtitles. I found the movie interesting and thought provoking. I agree that the film represents Breillat's thoughts and beliefs.

reply

[–] Meven_Stoffat 14 years ago

I want to smack whoever made the claim on the front cover that says "The sexiest movie ever" upside the head.

This film was NOT sexy. It was totally depressing and completely stupid. The most erotic thing about it was it's cover.

I love the French. I love French cinema. French is a very beautiful language and I used to be a very fluent speaker back in elementary (I plan on re-learning it in the future since it's one of my country's two official languages). SOme of my favorite films are French. Also, female directors are something to be beheld too- there's not very many of them around, and most of them are excellent. Mary Harron made one of the most stylish and smartest movies ever (American Psycho), Lexi Alexander made a movie that's one of my total guilty pleasure movies (Punisher: War Zone). It's great to see a variety out there.

Catherine Breillat, both female and French, gives French cinema, the French, female directors, females, and feminists, a bad name. I've seen a good deal of her work- it's ALL THE SAME. All of them have a totally sickening "Men are disgusting and vile creatures" and "sex is BAD!!!!!!!" message. THere's NOTHING wrong with being feminist- But she takes EVERYTHING too far. To call her movies "brave", "honest", "smart" is an insult to French cinema. Yeah, she does not simulate the sex in her movies. Yeah, she has lots of nudity in her movies. Yeah, her movies rant on and on about how us men are evil creatures. Does that make her movies "artistic", "honest", smart", or even "brave" for that matter??? NO!!!!!!!!! To be honest, her movies remind me of this art gallery I saw at the Edmonton Museum where a guy just had a toilet seat on a white canvas, calling it "art". Some hilarious quotes from her:

"The problem is that censors create the concept of obscenity. By supposedly trying to protect us they form an absurd concept of what is obscene."

LOL, and here's me thinking what she does goes way overboard!!!!!! Seriously, masturbating while menustrating, raping people with stone dildos, etc. is obscenity. I have no problems with nudity in films, but for chrissakes, everything she does is way over the top.

"If you want to preserve your virginity, it's about not wanting to belong to the human species. To make love is not just to have the pleasure of flesh, but to have the pleasure of flesh escaping flesh. The sexual act involves a mental transfiguration, too."

Oh SHUT THE F--K UP!!!!! Or better yet, someone please hand me a gun so I can color the walls with my brains? She's being a hypocrite- she is complaining about sex yet she shows onscreen sex in her movies. Wow, awesome logic from her, she should keep it up, she may go very far.

"I am the pariah of French cinema. That can make things complicated for me: it is never easy to drum up a budget or to find a distributor for my films in France. Some people refuse even to read my scripts. But it also makes me very happy because hatred is invigorating. All true artists are hated. Only conformists are ever adored."

Trust me. Your enjoyment will wear off after being locked behind a door with me.

Simply put, what a hack hag wannabe pretentious bitch. Worst thing to happen to France since Hitler.

"That's a mistake you can make just one time." - Bruce Dickinson, Dracula

reply

[–] sarahllsjones 14 years ago

so she thinks she is a true artist? talk about delusion.

reply

[–] Wilde_child 8 years ago

So you're saying you'd like to beat her up? Misogynist.

reply

[–] skay_baltimore 11 years ago

crap. she is, just like steven speilberg, a highly overated director. I have seen her's se x is comedy, anatomy of hell and now this one and all three of them make no sense at all. She just uses all her films to ramble on and on about her own disoriented thoughts.
Okay, all directors put their views across through their works but at least those thoughts should make some sense.
Maybe somebody at Columbia University, where she takes class, should tell her that nobody wants to hear her philosophy.

I've seen the same films you mentioned, as well as Fat Girl (BIG mistake), and I've come to the exact same conclusion. This woman is messed up in the head when it comes to sexuality and relationships. It's just that simple. And I could not care less to see her pathology plastered across the screen for even one more minute. She really ought to invest some of her earnings in some serious therapy.

"Love isn't what you say or how you feel, it's what you DO". (The Last Kiss)

reply

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]