Why
Why Hasnt anybody else talked about how wonderful this movie was and how great Spacey was I loved this movie!
Just Because you're paranoid
Don't mean they're not after you!
*RIP Kurt*
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I know! I think this movie is surprisingly underrated too. I think "all" (there's only 3) the actors did a seriously good job. Peter Facinelli is great...especially if you compare his role to the one he has in "Fastlane". Danny DeVito really shines in this one too. And Kevin Spacey is always amazing! What a great actor!! It's a shame this movie is so overlooked, cause it has such a strong message going on. I couldn't get it off my mind after I'd watched it. It really took me by surprise. I thought I was gonna watch a comedy...
sharei completely agree. it is bizzarly underated. i actually had never ever in my life heard of it before i rented it today. i am a huge Spacey fan and have made it a point to watch every movie he has been in so i rented this one day to watch my favorite actor do what he is best at, and thinking the same thing you did, that i was about to watch a comedy and actually ended up seeing something much more. I LOVED IT. it is now on my "favorites" list. the begining was funny, but somewhat slow and i was wondering where it was going then half way through i fianlly realized that this film was something completly different than anything i had ever seen! *applauds everyone involved in making the film*
shareI laughed a lot while watching The Big Kahuna. Didn't you?
It seems like a comedy to me. It's just not vapid and shallow. It's a comedy with intelligence, ideas, and things to say.
In some ways it reminds me of Last Days of Disco, and Metropolitan. All are comedies, but have more depth than just being vehicles for jokes. They are all reasonably intelligent, and they all take place in a relatively small number of locations.
I think the performances were amazing and Kevin Spacey IS my favorite actor. This movie had my respect and attention throughout the whole movie until the end. It seemed the two experienced men in the business were going to learn something from the young guy with integrity. I was sure the man would call and ask about the lubricants, but it doesn't even matter. The movie came so close to hitting the point but misses, and greets the end with a well intended but flawed speech by DeVito. Bob deemed it more important to talk about what was important in his life in an unselfish display of humility. Spacey learned the lesson, but DeVito walks away thinking he's found something. But has he? Bob walks away having affected someones life perminately in a positive way. The lesson was wrong.
RELATIONSHIPS ARE MORE IMPORTANT
This is not to say that the business at some point is not to be dealt with. The story continues after the movie. Spacey or DeVito could have called and talked with the man mentioning Bob as an associate giving them A LOT of leeway. But the movie leaves it as that Bob screwed up the deal. But in reality, personality, honesty, and relationships earn business better than stuffed shirts or smooth talkers. Bob was the true hero.
Donnie: Why do you wear that stupid bunny suit?
Frank: Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
I couldn't agree with you more. Devito found nothing at the end. Here was a man in search of his mission, and when he meets someone who actually HAS a mission, as Bob did, he finds it more important to teach him about the hard knocks of life? Phil is preaching to a man of character about character? Odd, indeed.
We ALL have a dream within us, and there are always those who will try to hijack that dream for their own selfish motives.
Bob was indeed the hero, walking away with his integrity and TRUE character. Phil was on an introspective search, but he didn't seem to learn much through the situation. And Larry was just a loser. He was mean and condescending to Bob from the beginning. I'm surprised Bob put up with it. Were it not for his great strength of character, he probably should have told Larry to stuff it early in the film.
The movie got close to hitting a home run, but was tagged out at third base due to poor story and character resolution. Still, a surprising film with good performances by all.
I disagree with the fact that Bob had character. He, like Larry, was just a salesman selling something. The only one with character in the movie was Phil. I agree completely that hard knocks and tough situations are what bring about true character in people. Bob was a man of integrity and principle, but that's not the same as having character.
Husband....Wait a minute. What was all that one in a million talk.
Sorry to disagree, but one definition for character on dictionary.com states "moral or ethical strength".....Bob qualifies. No one else comes close. And I am guessing that you are not a Christian or you would understand that Christians don't sell Jesus, they share him. People sell things to gain a personal profit, Christians share Jesus to benefit others. If you really care about others you share with them what is most important in your life. Bob is still the hero for not backing down.
Donnie: Why do you wear that stupid bunny suit?
Frank: Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
You are correct, I am not a Christian. I didn't mean to offend anyone with my comment. I should have been more clear with thoughts on the matter. I don't disagree with people sharing their love of Jesus and Religion in a personal setting. What I thought was inappropriate was that Bob was using a company function to do so. He was paid to go to the conference to aide the others in getting new clients. He completely disregarded his duty as an employee and purposely avoided business in all his conversations with the "star account" rep. I think what Bob did at the conference is exactly the same as someone who tries to conduct business in a social atmosphere. Both are inappropriate behaviors given the situation. How annoying would it be if someone gave you their entire sales pitch for a Timeshare Condo while you where attending church. If I was a Christian, and attended Church, I would be bothered by someone doing that. I guess I shouldn't have said "selling something" in my original post and used the term inappropriate behavior instead.
I don't agree that selling something always involves a personal profit. For some people the interaction with the customer is the reward. When I used to work in an eyeglass retailer I couldn't have cared less about whether they bought the most expensive product. I just loved taking with the people, and finding out what they did for a living and learning things about them. The conversation was always the best part of the sale and I personally didn't profit at all from the exchange (well in a sense I did because I was able to keep my job).
While I don't agree that Bob was the "Hero" for standing his ground. I do think that Larry respected him a lot more in the end for sticking up for himself.
Husband....Wait a minute. What was all that one in a million talk.
I appreciate your considerate attitude towards the issue. It was nice of you to reword your post the way you did. I find that I can agree with your last post a lot more. It's a tough call for me to say whether he should have talked to the man about Christ or the current business at hand. I believe that he did what he thought was right for God at that time. However part of being a Godly husband is to help provide for your family, which would involve not getting fired.But once youve brought up the discussion it's hard to switch over to lubricants without seeming deceitful. Either way, though, I am heavily dissapointed in DeVito's character, had he reached enlightenment, or had he simply discovered retranspositionalation, causing him to realize he wasn't where he wanted to be in life?
Donnie: Why do you wear that stupid bunny suit?
Frank: Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
Yes, Bob should have talked about Christ. Yes, he probably deserved to be fired too, but this does not negate the fact he was right to do what he did. Doing what's right isn't always condusive to business. But Bob knew who he was working for, and he didn't forget it at a crucial moment. I admire that.
I also really appreciate the fact that we didn't find out if the Big Kahuna signed the contract. We don't see Bob being rewarded for his honesty and integrity. Honesty doesn't always pay - in the temporal sense, anyway.
But at the same time, let's be reasonable. The Kahuna wasn't an idiot: he was a CEO. He talked to Bob - and itentionally created additional opportunities to do so - because he wanted to. He Wanted to talk about Christ. Bob wasn't forcing anything on him. Now this means either (1) He was an amateur philosopher who cannot resist long conversations with earnest young men or (2) he really really wanted to talk about life and death and, well, Christ. Most of the clues in the movie point to theory 2, and presuming that, it seems to also be a pretty safe assumption that the Kahuna was in no particular mood to talk about industrial lubricants. Spacey and DeVito would have had absolutely no more luck than Bob - in fact, they probably would have just ticked him off. As a consumate non salesperson, I can state with sincerity that there's nothing more irritating than a salesperson when you don't want to be sold to. If the CEO was at least a little like me, if Bob had suddenly changed the subject and starting talking lubricants, I think he would have taken his business elsewhere. I mean, Bob had the nametag on all night - the CEO knew who he worked for.
Anyway, to me the movie has a happy ending whether or no anyone's darned contract got signed. Spacey's character learned something, Devito's character was at least no worse off, and Bob stayed true to his actual calling, and did good to a human being (not a function). Wish I could say as much 'bout my job most days.
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One of the things Phil talked about was figuring out if what you're saying touches the other person's life (or something like that). Basically, does the person care what you're talking about? You can be talking about some miracle product or you can talk about Christ; you can genuinely believe that either topic is important to the person you're approaching, but if the person isn't interested, it comes off as a sales pitch. You don't have to receive money to sell something, it can be a case of you thinking you have something the other person needs and trying to convince them to invest (money, time, emotion, labor, etc) in what you're saying to them. That was the point being made. Bob's flaw was that he thought because Christ was more important to him than the lubricants (which he was obligated to sell, by the way), that it was more important to everyone else as well. He was the one that initiated the Christ discussions and he thought he had what other people needed. The fact that he couldn't recognize his arrogance/hypocrisy is what Phil was referring to when he was talking about having things to regret but not knowing what they were. As a non-christian, I've had Christian friends with whom I could freely discuss religion and philosophy, but I've also met people who are undeniably trying to sell their faith to me. Bob was one of the latter. I would also say that Bob was NOT principled because he intentionally forsook a commitment he'd made to someone (his employer) because he thought his own agenda was more important. If he wanted to tell people about Christ full-time, he should have become a priest or joined a church that sends groups on missions (of which there are plenty).
shareI agre with Dio, Bob was not a hero.
He was a salesman, who was pitching a product he felt stronger about, and therefore assumed everyone else did too.
I found Phil's speech at the end extremely touching and honest, and it was like, when he was done, you were thinking "Wow, he is right...".
But it's kind of funny to see that it's the Christians of this board, who hail Bob as a hero. As if their religion impaired them from accepting Phil's conclusion in the end.
Someone said that christians don't 'sell' their belief, but share it.
The problem is Bob shared his religion, believing the entire time that the other part had nothing to offer him, insight-wise. He may not have made money from it, but he was pitching Christ, with no intention of actually learning anything about the other guy. He directed the conversation so that the other party would 'realize' the 'truth' Bob was selling.
This movie was so brilliant, with great performances and a strong ending.
You're right actually. I am afraid. Really afraid. But I...I think you're the *beep* anti-christ.
My sentiments exactly!
Does anyone have a copy of the monologue that Kevin Spacey reads over the end credits? It's advice and observations about life like
"Don't be reckless with other people's hearts",
"Don't be hard on yourself because life is 50% choice and 50% chance"...
"Be kind to your siblings as they are a necessary connection to your past and a a likely asset to your future",
"Remember only compliments, and forget criticisms",
"Don't read magazines, they will make you feel ugly" etc.?
If anyone has that actual monologue verbatim I will be forever in your debt!
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Thanks so much! I was moved to tears when I first heard it because I have
come to so many of the same conclusions in my lifetime.
I am going to print and frame it! Thanks again!!
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As a Christian who loves this film, I must say that I could not agree with you less.
If you don't believe that self-professed "Christians" (such as Bob) "sell" Jesus, you've been growing up in different suburbs, attending different youth groups, and raised in a different Protestant America than I have. Of course, it isn't really Jesus Bob's kind are selling; it's conformity, right-wing selfishness, and the facade of social perfection that should have died in the 50s.
Christians are supposed to be recognized by their love, not by their judgmentality and incessant spouting of their beliefs. Bob is relatively timid in this regard with in the company of Larry and Phil, who intimidate him, but I would guess from experience that he is quite vocally and obnoxiously judgmental when in the company of other pretend-to-be-perfect "Christians."
I don't believe Bob has even lived enough to know whether he should call himself "Christian" or not; as Phil points out, he has no character. He has no experience and has never seriously grappled with any issues. He is selling Jesus not to help others, but to internally reinforce his beliefs through verbal repetition, like the sycophant he is.
Why is it that you assume no one else "comes close" to "moral or ethical strength" in this film? Larry is clear about the fact that he has never cheated on his wife (if you count lust, I've got news for you: Bob is guilty as well) and Phil is quite clearly the film's moral center: humble (something Bob is certainly not), a servant, always searching rather than assuming he has already arrived.
What evidence do we have that Bob has "moral or ethical strength?" Lipservice to Jesus doesn't count; I know plenty of weak people who are quite adept at that.
by - Rowi111 on Sun Mar 21 2004 09:33:10 Sorry to disagree, but one definition for character on dictionary.com states "moral or ethical strength".....Bob qualifies. No one else comes close. And I am guessing that you are not a Christian or you would understand that Christians don't sell Jesus, they share him.
Well, of course, you're a Christian, therefore you see the "Christian" character as having the most character. Personally I agree with the other person, that DeVito's speech was right on the money.
P.S. Yes Christians do sell Jesus. (Whether it's for personal profit or not is beside the point) share
The thing is, "one definition for character on dictionary.com" does not define the entire scope of what "character" can be. There are many things that can be considered aspects of "character" and they aren't all moral strengths. They are good and bad, strengths and flaws, deeds and scars, telltale signs of life's joy, ambivalence, and despair.
"Character" is a rich and flexible word. To cut it down to one of several definitions on a web site, to turn it into a cherry picked, partial image of it's real self is improper, disingenuous, and serves not the language, but an agenda.
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Being in sales for many years myself I found the film extremely interesting and revealing. I think to call young Bob a the "man of character" and "integrity" as opposed to Phil as the "preacher" and "mean character" is unfair. Phil is characterized correctly by Larry as blunt but also honest and I think that is the truth. Remeber, he once lost an account when he revealed his true opinion. So, instead of forging his character, he came to the correct conclusion that as the salesman of the company it is his task to sell as it is the bookeeper's role to keep books and the machine's task to produce. So while in Wichita he is willing to separate the person from the role, not because he likes it but because he knows that it is more effective in most cases. To call this selfish is strange: How will Bob get payed in the future if he is not willing to help the company sell its products? It is always easy to look down on the "selfish" people in sales as long as they provide enough turnover to pay the salaries for the "interger" personalities in the head office.
The last scene shows that both Bob and Phil have learned something important in the hospitality suite in Wichita.
A great film, a must for people in sales.
yet again, another stellar performance by Mr. Spacey.
he to is my favorite actor!
You and I are pretty much on the same page regarding relationships, and Bob perhaps being the hero and not the goat. I posted something along similar lines in another thread here.
But I don't think the movie left things being that Bob screwed up the deal. Showing Bob with Fuller for a 3rd time, when Larry and Phil can't get an appointment with the guy, says to me that the all important relationship is established, and it is most likely that Bob is not the goat, because Fuller genuinely likes the guy.
I think the performances were amazing and Kevin Spacey IS my favorite actor. This movie had my respect and attention throughout the whole movie until the end. It seemed the two experienced men in the business were going to learn something from the young guy with integrity. I was sure the man would call and ask about the lubricants, but it doesn't even matter. The movie came so close to hitting the point but misses, and greets the end with a well intended but flawed speech by DeVito. Bob deemed it more important to talk about what was important in his life in an unselfish display of humility. Spacey learned the lesson, but DeVito walks away thinking he's found something. But has he? Bob walks away having affected someones life perminately in a positive way. The lesson was wrong.
RELATIONSHIPS ARE MORE IMPORTANT
This is not to say that the business at some point is not to be dealt with. The story continues after the movie. Spacey or DeVito could have called and talked with the man mentioning Bob as an associate giving them A LOT of leeway. But the movie leaves it as that Bob screwed up the deal. But in reality, personality, honesty, and relationships earn business better than stuffed shirts or smooth talkers. Bob was the true hero.
Donnie: Why do you wear that stupid bunny suit?
Frank: Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
Oops, sorry didn't mean to post that twice. My server screwed up.
Donnie: Why do you wear that stupid bunny suit?
Frank: Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
You are right, the performance of the actors were great. On the other hand, I do not agree to your making Bob the hero of the film. Of course, he showed a great deal of self-respect and integrity but on the other hand, what could he loose? Not being a senior sales rep, more a rookie for technicalities, the failure of the Wichita mission will not affect his career so much as the ones of his colleagues and maybe even the future of the company. Would he have been so "hereoic", were his job at stake or the financial situation of his family?
So, he learned a lot from Phil and will adjust his behaviour in the future I guess.
Bob was not the hero of this film. Integrity is, in fact, firmness of character, and, as Phil pointed out, Bob did NOT have character for exactly the reasons Phil said.
Phil says, "You preaching Jesus is no different than Larry or I preaching lubricants."
This is true!
Larry had much more character than Bob. Larry reads people, he understands them as individuals. Bob judges them and is not interested in who they are.
Larry is an honest man who demands honesty, which is pretty amazing in a field like marketing. Bob is agenda-oriented. Just because he is sincere in his agenda doesn't make him honest.
Larry says, "But you were insincere, Bob, in a much greater sense."
This is true also.
Is Larry as nice as Bob? No. But as a whole, he was the better man.
-Jodi
Thank you for your post.
I am pretty much of the same opinion. Bob seems so sure of his mission that he forgets about his colleagues and the interests of his company which guarantees his salary. Even though this is a form of integrity it is also a sign of personal weakness and hypocracy.
Somehow it reminds me of the current American administration , which in its believe in a god-like mission forgets about society as a whole and also about a lot of its compatriots with different beliefs.
I don't know why either. I love this movie too. If you really like Kevin Spacey www.drivingmrspacey.com is a good place to go and there is a chat room there too where you can discuss his movies or whatever-we did a chat on "The Big Kahuna" the other day.
shareI think the point to this movie is that Bob was as flawed as Larry when it was all said and done. Bob even used sales terms in discussing his talk with "the Big Kahuna" the first time. He said, "the lead in". He implied that he meant to talk to the client about life, death, and religion. This is as much of an nonpersonal issue as buying lubricants. Like Phil said, if you want to be personal, ask them about their family.
To Rowill, Bob isn't going to get any more business out of him than Larry by invoking the word of God. In fact, that may turn him off more than having a drink and talking about nothing. The fact that Bob can't see this is his lack of character. Also, the rule in sales is don't talk about religion, politics, or sex. You are likely to have a disagreement with those three issues(obviously true by this message board) and disagreements aren't good when trying to negotiate a business deal.
"Put the bunny in the box!"
I'm pretty sure that the point about Bob is this (or how I took it):
Since Bob is a Christian, he feels he should lead my example by demonstrating love, compassion, and a caring persona to everyone instead of being harshly judgmental, which almost every person on this planet is. I don't leave myself out there. Note that each time Phil & Larry used profanity or spoke of something that would make a Christian uncomfortable, Bob didn't say, "Stop that" or "I'm better than that". In fact, it was pretty much Larry pointing the whole time the differences between himself and Bob.
Bob's mistake was not that he believed he should share Jesus with others. Also note that Larry wasn't criticizing him for that. It was just that Bob neglected to see that you can't use a job as a pitch to share religion. You can't ignore a job to prove a point like that. I firmly believe Bob could have done both if he had so desired, but he didn't even care about the future of the careers of Phil and Larry.
That was his problem.
I think.
There is a time and a place for everything, and Bob did not see that. I am christian, and I could not stand Bob. He believed in the Chritian myth that every time and place is the right time and place to spread the word of the Lord. It is not. He is a man who seemed to me to have a very hollow life (and marriage from what it sounds like) and latched on to the idea of christianity to give himself meaning. His self-righteous preaching was almost pathetic. I think that Peter Facinelli did a great job in conveying that Bob could take a subject as important as God and faith and make it come across as a completely transparent and self serving sales pitch.
I was actually thinking about this character while I was listening to that lunatic Tome Cruise, rant about his farcical Religion. He is beginning to remind me of Bob's character, two guys who love to hear themselves talk and feel like what they have to say is so much more important than anything else that is going on.
WOW! i completely agree with you. i am also a christian and could not stand bob but loved how Peter Facinelli portrayed him. gag, i was getting so sick of bob and loved it everytime larry came in with a sarcastic remark about him, eventhough it was mostly rude. "did you happen to mention what line of industrial lubricants Jesus would have endorsed?"......LOL...good stuff!
anyway, i also totally agreed when larry was talking to bob and said that some people who are both very "principled" get married and then one day they realize that it was just their principles that got married and they just came along for the ride. very very good stuff. and also the little speech that phil gave bob towards the end of the movie...i would quote it but i dont remember the bulk of it.....all in all...it was very well done and i think that all three characters had something they could learn from each other.
I disagree with the idea that Bob's main flaw is that he shirked on his duties as marketing rep. This neglect is reprehensible because he forsakes his associates, his fellow men (as opposed to the company, or professional ethics). His flaw is his lack of character, as Phil points out so well. Bob seems to reflect a righteous facade but in fact he is mislead and contradicts what he presents as his values (because of his youth/stupidity).
Indeed, he steers a conversation about dogs to "pitch" Jesus. He does not try to "love" people as he says Jesus does. In fact, he judges them based on very narrow criteria: belonging to a religious congregation (and not faith) or even professionnal success as he so clearly states when describing a certain employee that he respects above all else (his name escapes me).
As someone said in this thread, he does not try to learn from other (Larry, Dick Fuller or Phil, whom he ignores after his speech, asking him if he could leave). This belief that he (as a christian... or a buddhist or a communist or whatever ideological identity) has nothing to learn from others, has sole possession of the Truth, is the reason why he does not "regret" anything, why he has no character. As such, he is totally unable of connecting with anyone, like Phil and Larry so clearly and deeply do.
very good point
i agree totally