kenshin vs shishio - Rurôni Kenshin: Meiji kenkaku romantan (2003) Discussion

[–] Aziatik 18 years ago

not at all, if you read the book and analyze it a little. Shishio was superior to kenshin due to the fact that he does not kill anymore. only Battosai would measure up to Shishio otherwise kenshin is doomed.

I am 32 but the gauge is 12.

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[–] swordman1983 18 years ago

hmmmmmmm, interesting, i say the fight would have been over a lot quicker due to the fact kenshin had landed some solid hits on shishio with the reverse blade sword, for e.g. his five-hit combo attack and his ultimate attack. NOW, if kenshin had performed his ultimate attack or even the combo with a proper cutting edge sword than it would've cut right through and killed him, instead the reverse blade sword only dealt a severe blow to his torso from which shishio was able to get back up from during the end of the fight, right before he combusted......to be honest, i havent read the manga.

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[–] Aziatik 18 years ago

I suggest you read the manga because it is detailed and well written. Of course Kenshin performed his divine dragon technique and it would have killed shishio. but this is a story about will and Ken is the hero so he must win one way or the other. If you pay attention closely it was Shishio's plan to have kenshin, Saitou and Aoshi wounded so he can finish them off quickly. no way he would have walked out of a fight against saitou without being in a hearse. When shishio confronted kenshin the first time he defeated kenshin in 9 min 37 sec including dialogues. the author of the story wanted to tell us that kenshin would have lost in reality, but the fact that it is not all about skills but about will shishio had to loose cuz his will to rule the country was inferior to Ken's will, protecting his friends.

I am 32 but the gauge is 12.

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[–] BattousaiX 18 years ago

Kenshin won plain and simple. That's the bottom line. Shishio lost and Kenshin won. Kenshin was the better fighter and there's really no excuses about it.

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[–] kylelamarine 18 years ago

well technically if Shishio didn't combust kenshin woulda probably lost.

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[–] swordman1983 18 years ago

shishio was right though. kenshin was way too soft, after smacking shishi with his ultimate move shishio was temporarily defencless, he was vunerable to attack, but kenshin let his guard down when yumi pleaded to kenshin,and hence shishio was able to injure kenshin.

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[–] jgib5328 18 years ago

Dude, Shishio has a medical condition, fought Saito, fought Aoshi, Sanoske, and Kenshin twice. He even messed with them all a few times. We did not see a real fight. Kenshin was tired from two duels and Shishio wasn't too serious plus he had many opponents.

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[–] swordman1983 18 years ago

true, but aoshi, saito and sanosuke werent in exactly top-notch conditions either, especially poor ol saito, those injured legs mustve reduced the power of his gatotsu thrust attack. although, it was quite funny the way shishio brushed off his zero gatotsu like it was nothing......we call that being a BAD MOFO!

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[–] jgib5328 18 years ago

Yeah they were all in very bad condition. Another cool part of that fight was when Shishio just punched the living crap out of Sano when Sano tried to hit him.

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[–] BattousaiX 18 years ago

theres so many people saying "well if shishio didnt combust then he mighta won the fight againts kenshin" blah blah blah its just a bunch of excuses.

basically shishio lost to kenshin. thats the bottom line. his body couldnt handle the fight. hes only human after all. unlike kenshin, shishio couldnt reach over his limit and thats y he went up in flames. he couldnt kill kenshin before his "time limit". even shishio himself accepted his own defeat. like he said "the strong survive and the weak die," apparently shishio is the weaker one. THE END

U tame a dog with food U tame a man with money But there is nothing that can tame a Miburo

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[–] shall01 18 years ago

However, Kenshin basicly said Shishio's logic ("strong survive, weak die") was wrong. It's one of the few things Shishio did not get right (according to Kenshin).

I think Shishio knew he was done for after Kenshin used the Ultimate Technique (though that wasn't what killed him - nor would it have). And after Yumi died, he wanted to die too - he just wanted to take Kenshin and the others with him!!

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[–] BattousaiX 18 years ago

shishio didnt want to die after yumi died...he used her as a shield to stab kenshin. hes goal was still to rule japan and eventually the world, hes not just gonna waste his life even after yumi died.

he really didnt care about the others well being(sano, saitoh, aoshi). he was was clearly focused on the just the fight with kenshin thats why he didnt care about his impending limit.

both shishio and kenshin have strong philosophies. one thinks of himself as a naturalistic survivor and the other as an idealistic pacifist. both think they are right and the other wrong. honestly, "surrvival of the fittest" is a true fact in real world history.

U tame a dog with food U tame a man with money But there is nothing that can tame a Miburo

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[–] shall01 18 years ago

Well maybe....

I will say this (and even admitted this on another thread), even though Kenshin beat him, Shishio was bigger, stronger and smarter than Kenshin. He wouldn't get psyched-out like Kenshin (and many others). Nothing really effectively fazed him.... Not Yumi's death... Not Sôjirô leaving... Not any of his other setbacks.... Not even pain or his impeding doom. He stayed kind of calm though it all.

When you think of it, in some ways he was smarter than all the other villians before and after him (in BOTH the animes and the manga).

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[–] BattousaiX 18 years ago

Shishio was stronger than Kenshin but thats about it. He was physically stronger and had more endurance... but there is a difference between strength and power. Shishio uses sheer strength while Kenshin uses leverage and speed. Most people forget this but because of his burns, his body produces constant adrenalin thats why he is stronger and can take a beating. In a way his burns are his strength and weakness. While his body produces constant adrenalin.... his body can only maintain it at a limited amount of time.

Shishio was most definitely NOT smarter than Kenshin. If he was smarter he should have killed Kenshin as quickly as he can, but he didnt cus he couldnt. He knocked out Kenshin temporarily wit the Guren Kaina (glove explosion) but that was it... it was like throwing a grenade at someone. Technique....no, more like an effective cheap surprise attack. In the end it was Shishio's arrogance that blinded him from the truth. The truth being that Kenshin is just a better fighter... he only admittingly realized this after his death. But for some reason other people try to argue against the truth.

If Shishio was smart he shoulda told Houji to shoot Kenshin while he was knocked out wit his gun, thats the only way he would have beaten Kenshin.

Nothing really effectively fazed him

Is he supposed to be shocked at Yumi's death when hes the one who deliberately stabbed through her? (btw that scene was meant to be ironic on Kenshin and Tomoe) The Juppon Gattana was just his tool to capturing Japan. So it would be uncharacteristic for him to show sympathy or anything about Soujiro or anyone.

The only one who is a better fighter than Kenshin is Hiko Seijuro, no one else. Hiko is the strongest, the fastest, and the wisest of all. Its too bad we didnt get to see him display more of his skills. Just imagine Hiko fighting WITHOUT his mantle.

U tame a dog with food U tame a man with money But there is nothing that can tame a Miburo

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[–] shall01 18 years ago

If Shishio was smart he shoulda told Houji to shoot Kenshin while he was knocked out wit his gun, thats the only way he would have beaten Kenshin.

Well maybe, but he was still smarter than most of (if not all of) the villians in both the anime and the manga.......

*****SPOILER (MANGA WISE)*********

Enishi Yukishiro was the only one to do SOME things smarter than Shishio (ONLY 2 THINGS). 1.) Manipulate Shishio, the master manipulator himself. 2.) Psyche-out Kenshin by putting him in a "living hell." But the reason he did this was not so smart, and after doing those 2 things he did things that were really IDIOTIC. (Sad concidering he was really smart.)

*****END OF SPOILER*********

Just imagine Hiko fighting WITHOUT his mantle.

Yes I can. Can anyone say "Samurai Superman?" Hiko would have went though all of "Kenshin & Friends" enemies/opponents in just under 10 SECONDS. And I mean all from the manga, anime, movie, and both OVA's. Shishio, Enishi, Jinei, Tatsumi, Shogo, Raijûta, all of them! (And since they each fought Kenshin, Saitô, Aoshi, Sanosuke, and a few others be real glad they never fought HIM!!)

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[–] BattousaiX 18 years ago

Samurai Superman

excatly!!! thats the reason why watsuki had problems putting him againts anyone.

imma go to japan and have a talk wit watsuki personally, and tell him to:
- animate jinchu arc
- animate rurouni kenshin short stories(kenshin kaden, yahiko no sakabatou,etc)
- animate Cresent Moon in the Warring States
- do a spin off involving the origin of the Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu and the title of Hiko Seijuro, & young Kenshin's training with Master Hiko.

the kenshin series still has a lot of potential and wit enough incentive theres a strong chance of more things to come.

U tame a dog with food U tame a man with money But there is nothing that can tame a Miburo

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] BattousaiX 18 years ago

ummm where'd u get 32 people from??? can u count???
- kenshin was exhausted from fighting aoshi and soujiro.
- saito legs had been stabbed... being stabbed is not the same as having little scratches. it neutralized his basic gatotsu moves and had to resort to his zero gatotsu to defeat usui.
- sano is not even in their league... so he doesn't count.
- aoshi could barely fight anymore because of the amakakeru ryu no hiramike he recieved.

stop wasting ur time making excuses on how shishio could have won. shishio lost because kenshin was the better fighter. if shishio was the better fighter, he would have finished kenshin off when kenshin was knocked out. he wasnt smart enough to take the opportunity. stop denying the truth. if u wanna complain... go to watsuki and complain to him.

U tame a dog with food U buy a man with money But theres nothing that can change the Miburo

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] BattousaiX 18 years ago

it was no longer a one on one battle when shishio sent senkaku, cho, aoshi, and soujiro againts kenshin. shishio fought an exhausted and battle wounded kenshin, while shishio himself was still fresh. is that fair... NO.

saito, sanosuke, and aoshi just made the battlefield even... by the way shishio also fought injured opponents throughout that whole fight.

shishio missed his opportunity to finish off kenshin when he was temporarily knocked out. he was too arrogant to see this.

the only way for shishio to be beaten was to kill him. that's why he kept saying to kenshin that his pacifist philisophy wont work in the fight. so how would kenshin, and his vow of not to kill, beat shishio??? >>> he just had to keep beating the crap outta shishio, until he went down, which he finally did.

like hiko seijuro said, "no matter how strong you become, you are still human." shishio failed to his limit. thats why he died. he couldnt beat kenshin when he had the chance.

to put it bluntly... kenshin is the better fighter than shishio.

Watsuki was explained this in his trancripts and interviews. but you still fail to comprehend this. its not that hard to understand. i think the only way for brain to understand all this is for Watsuki to say it in your face. go to japan, interview him, and he'll tell u the same thing.

this topic is a dead argument. watsuki has already clarified all this at the end of the series in 1999. its been seven years... let it go.

U tame a dog with food U buy a man with money But theres nothing that can change the Miburo

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] shall01 18 years ago

Sorry to jump in this arguement, but neither of them can be determined to be the better fighter. I won't take sides, but here's a few points.....

1. Shishio did fight his battle all by himself. This is true. HOWEVER, first he had Kenshin, his allies and friends, and Shshio's own followers fight each other; Shishio hoped that (with the exception of Sojiro) they all kill other, and the ones that survive he'd kill.

2. I wouldn't say everyone was in top health, but Shishio was in way better than Kenshin, Saito, Sano, and Aoshi. This is because they all just been fighting except Shishio.

3. Yes, Kenshin had help fighting with Shishio. But you must remember, Sano, Saito, and Aoshi where each in huge battles and, even though Sano and Saito won, all three already got the crap beaten out of them. They were cut-up, busted open, bloodied up, bruised, etc. All before fighting Shishio (and it didn't help Sano that he WAS out of his league trying to fight Shishio anyway). Because of this, they hardly laid a finger on him. Plus, Kenshin was in TWO BATTLES and was in the worst shape of them all. Once again, this was Shishio's intention; they all would be too weak to battle him and win.

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[–] lynnfisi 18 years ago

I really think Shishio was the stronger one, but Kenshin won because of his will to live. It makes the characters seem more real and that is comforting. They both had strengths and faults and as everyone knows, just because you are better at something doesn't mean you win every time.

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[–] schismm 18 years ago

"I really think Shishio was the stronger one, but Kenshin won because of his will to live. It makes the characters seem more real and that is comforting. They both had strengths and faults and as everyone knows, just because you are better at something doesn't mean you win every time."

I totally agree! Kenshin with his vow to not kill wasn't as strong as Shishio, but his will to live was far stronger than Shishios ambitions. But this doesn't mean that Shishio was stronger than Battousai, but it gets weird 'cause battousai lacks the will to live which was the reason kenshin won. But Battousai himself is probably so much better than Shishio that his will to live perhaps wasn't needed? Hmmppf, it's like a paradox.

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[–] alj005 18 years ago

I totally agree with you shall 01...! that's the whole truth. kenshin had fought some huge battles with soujiro and aoshi, aoshi had taken kenshin's ultimate attack, saito's legs were all crappy cause of his fight with the blind guy and sano altough is not in their league he had a dificult time too... shishio was fresh. he had his 15 min time limit but he was fresh when he fought all the injured warriors...

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[–] BattousaiX 18 years ago

3 great warriors... who were all exhausted and wounded from previous fights. by the way, saito and aoshi are great warriors, sano on the other hand is only average.

also, shishio's burns are not a disadvantage as it seems because the side effects of the burns make his body produce constant adrenaline. that's why he has a far superior brute strength.

you can argue all you want...which is pointless.

Nobuhiro Watsuki, the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, has stated this in the past... that Kenshin is the better fighter. The only one better than Kenshin is his master, Hiko Seijuro. His words are FINAL. why cant you understand this??? its not that hard to comprehend.

there was no argument to begin with. all this should have, could have, would have are elementary crap.

I'm gonna make this easy for you to understand... Nobuhiro Watsuki is RIGHT and you are WRONG!!!

U tame a dog with food U buy a man with money But theres nothing that can change the Miburo

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[–] er_mano 18 years ago

Kenshin won with that sword,if he had used a real 1 shishio would have died in a min lol

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[–] OmegaWolf747 18 years ago

Shishio was nothing but a coward and a cheater. What kind of swordsman plans to fight someone who's already injured and uses gunpowder in their glove? If Shishio were an honorable swordsman, he should've met Kenshin out in a field somewhere, both in top condition and used only his sword and sheath, no gunpowder.

Of course, I do agree that Kenshin's too soft. He shouldn't have let Yumi disuade him from finishing Shishio off. But if he hadn't, he wouldn't be Kenshin, would he?

--
http://anarchy4eva.blogspot.com

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[–] Dante83 18 years ago

Shishio didn't shake off the Gatotsu Zero-san. He blocked and countered it.

I really don't think Sanosuke is average or weak like most are implying, because no average man could have defeated Anji the Destroyer. Plus, he survived several Futae no Kawames (sp?), which is a one shot attack.

However, I will agree that Shishio was out of his league, but his reason to fight him was for Kenshin's sake. (And as a side note, even Shishio himself said that Sanosuke was no average man.)

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