When did rock start to suck?

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after motley crue and def leppard were essentially done, rock was done

I don't really like Nirvana's In Utero. Overall though I'd say the mid 90s.

The thing to understand with 80s rock, is that beyond the flash and glam, there was a lot of great technical skill. Guitarists like Steve Vai, singers like Miljenko Matijevic, etc.

So rock died with the advent of auto-tune and that crap thrash distortion ( not to be confused with thrash metal ).


The last really good rock album has to be Winger's Karma. Go listen to it.



Those foolish enough to move from canada to america increase the average I.Q. of both countries

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People always say you have to seek it out but I've searched and I have only found one band. Where do you look?

It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.

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Rock never began to suck in the first. It only disappeared from the mainstream. In the 60s-70s rock n roll, or at least rock oriented music, was commercial so everyone just ignorantly assumes that since it was no longer commercially successful or recognizable it must suck. But yea you can blame punk, heavy metal, disco culture, Mtv, shallow-easy-listen pop etc etc for it's downfall as a mainstream form of music.
I'm quiet surprised at most of the people here pretending to know and understand rock or metal. It's actually quiet pathetic. Seems to me that most have a knowledge limited only to mainstream success of the genre. There's lot more and better metal out there than there ever was. Get over it people....most of rock evolved into metal...it's a natural progression of music. Every form of music has evolved into something else. If bands like Deep Purple, The Doors, The Who, Led Zeppelin etc etc had been formed in this era they would be highly likely playing metal.

hair metal was amazing. Kurt Cobain was a hack.

"Charming company you keep."

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This is an interesting thread. Rock isn't dead, it's just on life support. I was going to reply to the original poster with a post similar to yours but since you beat me to it, I'll just reply to you. I agree about the first three cycles. Those were great eras of Rock and Roll.

I have a few quibbles about the origins of rock. You list "Rocket 88" (by Jackie Brenston & His Delta Cats?) as the first rock song. It's listed as "Blues" on iTunes. I listened to it and it sounded like it belonged in the Jump Blues category. Louis Prima did that style. Little Richard was actually doing Jump Blues. The movie "D.O.A." (1947) has a scene in a nightclub where the band is playing a Jump Blues song, so you could almost claim that Rock started in the 40's. I don't buy it. For me, Rock started with Chuck Berry, who mixed Chicago Blues with Country guitar. I realize that New York disk jockeys coined the phrase "Rock 'n Roll", referring to sex in Rhythm and Blues songs, but Rock and Roll, as I understand it, was a new kind of music that started in 1955. The "All Music Guide to Rock" has some interesting articles in the "Rock Styles" section showing the evolution of Rock. Jack Black had some similar diagrams in the movie "School of Rock" (2003).

There was some good Rock (Surf, Instrumental, Motown, Brill Building) between cycles 1 and 2 but not enough to call it a great era. I also liked some of the Folk between Cycles 1 and 2. Rock evolved over the years, incorporating elements of Folk (between Cycles 1 and 2) and both Punk and Disco (between Cycles 2 and 3). Some Beatles songs had Folk chords and Blondie's "Heart of Glass" had some Disco.

I disagree about the forth cycle. Although I bought Nirvana's Nevermind, I only liked a few songs on that CD. Grunge was a good descriptive term- the start of an unfortunate trend of a young man yelling into the microphone while others thrashed on guitar and drums. Where was the melody? I could hardly hear the chords. If you strip away the noise, "Smells Like Teen Spirit" is a good song. I like the Tori Amos cover. I also like the "Smells Like Nirvana" cover by "Weird Al" Yankovic. The video is hilarious.

I think the best rock CD of the 90's was "Tragic Kingdom" (1995) by No Doubt. Some of my co-workers saw the band in 1995 at The Greek Theatre in LA and I wish I had gone. I blind bought the "Return of Saturn" sequel and was disappointed. That same year, I also bought the "Jagged Little Pill" CD by Alanis Morissette and the "Garbage" CD by Garbage (I only liked 3 songs, especially "Only Happy When It Rains"). Jewel had a few interesting songs but they were more pop than rock. I almost thought the fourth cycle was about to begin but it didn't.

Here are some examples of other interesting Rock/Alternative songs I found past the New Wave era:

"Go with the Flow" and "Little Sister" by Queens of the Stone Age.
"Shut Your Eyes" by Snow Patrol
"Dani California" by Red Hot Chili Peppers
"All Night Long" and "A Strange Kind of Love" by Peter Murphy
"Jerk It Out" by Caesars
"Velouria" by Pixies
"Soul Meets Body" by Death Cab for Cutie
"An Honest Mistake" and "Believe" by The Bravery
"If You Could Only See" by Tonic
"No Myth" and "Try" by Michael Penn
"Smile Like You Mean It" by The Killers
"Venus Man Trap" and "Awesome" by Veruca Salt
"Linger" by The Cranberries
"Clocks" by Coldplay
"Live to Win" by Paul Stanley (OK, I bought it because I saw "Make Love, Not Warcraft" on South Park! I'm a gamer)
"Nearly Lost You" by Screaming Trees
"Do You Realize?" by The Flaming Lips
"Crazy" and "Going On" by Gnarls Barkley
"Save Me" by Remy Zero (yes, the Smallville theme song)
"Can't Change Me" and "You Know My Name" by Chris Cornell

I won't list all the newer songs I found from the 90's and 00's but some good rock music (or Alternative as it's called on iTunes) is still there if you look for it. When I think of all the good music from the other eras, this list from the past two decades sounds weak. I haven't given up on rock. Although I rarely hear new music I like on the radio these days, I have discovered music on iTunes. Unfortunately the short 30 second samples may make me ignore songs I'd like or buy songs I shouldn't have. I sometimes go on YouTube to hear the full songs. I found "Behave" by Charlotte Hatherley there. I bought the first two Franz Ferdinand CDs, although some of their songs have a bit too much Disco.

So, what killed good music? I can think of two causes- MTV and the end of the single. MTV focused attention on a band's visual appearance and "attitude". Female singers and girl groups started to wear less and less clothing. That may be nice to look at but it really was a distraction from what was important- the quality of the music. The death of the 45 single meant that the music industry and bands had less feedback about what people wanted. Add to that the idiot bean counters in the music industry who knew nothing about music. Listen to "Radio, Radio" by Elvis Costello & The Attractions.

By the way, I think "Almost Famous" is a great movie and I wish it would come out on Blu-ray soon. Do you think it would make a good double bill with "This is Spinal Tap"?

Monsters from the Id

Johnston-Scott: Your post on page 3 is absolutely spot on. The 5th Cycle never happened.
I would like to also note that perhaps if some of the 4th cycle bands might have taken note from such great bands and the Stones & Zeppelin and rocked up the old blues music that so gave them their start perhaps we might have had some better rock bands now. But the kids growing up in the 80's & 90's really didn't have exposure to some of the really talented people out there unless they were wise enough to dig up some of the old songs and really listen. But being that most kids want to fit in and listen to what is popular they lost out (and continue to lose out). That is why I am so appreciative of some radio stations for at least having some specialty shows playing the older stuff. Like WXRT in Chicago for example (which you can now listen to online.)

And some of magic of just waiting for a record to come out has gone away too with technology. Anyone can put their music online now with Myspace and other sites. Seems like there's a new hot band every single day now. And I use the term "hot" loosely because alot of these new bands cannot even play their own instruments.
I once read where something like 98% of all the songs have already been sampled.

Read the bios on most of the old rock bands. Most of them same they read this book or that book. Or they would spend hours listening to some old blues player. Wonder how the bios of all these DJs will read in 20-30 years.
Just my thoughts.

Peter Doherty, my friend, Peter Doherty is the fifth cycle.

you forget to mention: punk, postpunk, trashmetal of the 80s, which was completely different from hair metal. In the 00s there were the white stripes, strokes, boris, and lately: ty segall, king gizzard and swans got back...