Did anyone besides me find this movie very sad and depressing? - American Movie (2000) Discussion

[–] Apogee_ 16 years ago

No. I thought it was very life-affirming.

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"It's near impossible to sympathize wih Mark"

Are you kidding me? How can you NOT sympathize with him? He seems like such a nice guy who is just trying to follow his dreams? There was not one point in the film that he came across as unlikeable, to me at least.

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[–] JaneSchmo 16 years ago

When he rants and blabbers, he's EMBARRASSING. Making a fool of himself the way he does, putting his family (enspecially that poor mother of his) through what he does, the way he neglected his kids...I kept thinking "this guy might be headed for BIG trouble."

He's not a "nice guy"- if I knew him in real life, this is one guy I would NOT want any of my friends to ever, ever, ever meet or even see me with. Like one of his brothers, I'm surprised he didn't become a stalker. And his pals are actually even worse and more pathetic.

It's strange and amazing that this movie somehow manages to build any sympathy for them at all and somehow doesn't become Jerry Springer done by the IFC channel!

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[–] david_and19 16 years ago

Then I hope your life is so much more rewarding and fullfilling. And yeah, of course "normal". Personally, I would love to spend time with both Mark and Mike. They are both very interesting characters. You on the other hand, JaneSchmo, I probably wouldn't want to waste my breath even speaking to you. Take care.

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[–] JaneSchmo 16 years ago

Look at what the man puts his parents, enspecially his poor mother, through.

If he weren't in a movie, if a 30-ish man you knew were doing things like this, you'd have enough of him. Guaranteed.

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[–] tuxedomaskdawg 16 years ago

there are parts in the movie where mark is unlikable but for the most part i do feel for the guy. the only part i really dont like him is when hes drunk during the superbowl cussing about factory workers. it was a sad film but its done in a light that lets you enjoy their way of life. he doesnt want to be some factory worker so hes gonna scrape by to accomplish his dream. i like this movie because it makes me laugh my ass off but really feel for all the guys in the movie.

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[–] ozymandias312 16 years ago

Funny, I think that ("I'll never be like you!") was my favorite part -- or at least the moment when I sympathized with him the most. Well, that, and the part where he was describing how he had to clean up the cemetery bathroom.

Ozy

And I stood where I did be; for there was no more use to run; And again I lookt with my hope gone.

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[–] deniseofarrell-1 15 years ago

Its a shame to have such a response where you cannot take somebody's albeit subjective reaction to this movie and accept it...

I see where JaneSchmo was coming from, this is an interesting movie but the main character is not nice, this is a sad movie, this guy takes advantage of his family, he is a sad sack piece of crap and his friends, family have bought into it. Does not make it right and I really struggle to understand how this arse managed to wipe his so called 'old' friend out of his hard earned savings and people think its ok cos its movie making, WHAT! this is a very sad case of some useless piece of *beep* taking advantage of people that wish for something better. Personally watching this makes me angry

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[–] winnersdontlose 15 years ago

It made me feel very depressed. I had to watch some MTV before I went to bed to avoid having bad dreams from dwelling on the film

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[–] Tab132 14 years ago

deniseofarrell-1 = op.

-Tab132

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[–] th89 15 years ago

Mark Borchardt was not taking advantage of his family and friends. He wanted to follow his dreams and do what he truely believed he could succeed in doing with an inexhaustible fund of self-belief. There are thousands of talented people in the world with no respect or recognition, and thousands with undeserved respect and recognition who just got lucky. It is the people who never gave up who are more likely to get a break in the end.

His brother was joking when he said he thought he would become a stalker.

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[–] Yinky 15 years ago

I think I'm in agreement with the OP & deniseofarrel. I didn't find anything likeable about the guy whatsoever. He seemed like nothing but a selfish, delusional, obnoxious mooch. Don’t get me wrong, I am all for following your dreams, but only to the point where you’re not taking advantage of others or neglecting your children. There are folks that feel that he took advantage of no one, which really shocks me. The exploitation of the vulnerable old man literally made me nauseous. It was disgusting. I see nothing humorous in his treatment of the man, and the bathtub scene in particular had me averting my eyes because it seemed so exploitive, cruel and abusive.

At first I thought ok, it’s a movie about this rather unstable space cadet and his creepy stoner friend who will stop at nothing to make his movie. Ok, it might be humorous, or interesting. I do enjoy colloquial films, the slice-of-life thing. Then I saw how he leeched off his mother. How he doesn’t even bother with a day-job. He weasels money out of his sort of Alzheimer-y uncle. When they got around to the three small children who seemed to matter about as much as a gob of spit to him, I was pretty much past revulsion and into hard core loathing.

And I’m sorry, the guy just IS NOT INTERESTING. The movie bored the hell out of me. I would like to know why anyone would be interested in watching a movie about someone so ridiculously mundane. I even toyed with the idea that this was a parody of some kind—surely nobody would want to make a film about someone so egomaniacal, yet so unremarkable. People on this board are calling him “aspiring.” Really? How? Sitting around drinking, conning an old man and ignoring his kids is something to aspire to? What a world, what a world.

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[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Yinky 15 years ago

Yes, we all have our faults, but my particular faults don't go as far as conning relatives out of money or neglecting my kids because I think I'm some kind of visionary.

As I remember it (it's been a while since I saw this movie), his wife (or whatever she was to him) pretty much said he didn't pay any attention to his kids, or support them in any way.

In this case I can't buy the "it's just a movie" defense because it's a documentary. If what we're shown really isn't the truth, then what's the point of all this? I can't see why the guy wouldn't have protested if it portrayed him in a way that wasn't respresentative of his personality.

Unless somehow it was scripted to get the guy publicity....which I wouldn't put past him. Who knows. I just thought the movie was boring and the guy was extremely uninteresting.

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[–] vincent-27 15 years ago

I think I'm in agreement with the OP & deniseofarrel. I didn't find anything likeable about the guy whatsoever. He seemed like nothing but a selfish, delusional, obnoxious mooch. Don’t get me wrong, I am all for following your dreams, but only to the point where you’re not taking advantage of others or neglecting your children. There are folks that feel that he took advantage of no one, which really shocks me. The exploitation of the vulnerable old man literally made me nauseous. It was disgusting. I see nothing humorous in his treatment of the man, and the bathtub scene in particular had me averting my eyes because it seemed so exploitive, cruel and abusive.

I don't he exploited his uncle at all. He had to sign off on any money Mark used, which was under the name of his production company, not his personal money. Mark actually took care of the man, washing his clothes and even his backside, would you do that? I wouldn't. Besides, his uncle was sitting on $250,000 with no family, what else is he going to do with it? And in the end he got his money back just like Mark promised, so that shows Mark has a lot of character. ANother sign of his character is shown when he shows his appreciation for Mike who lifted his spirits when he was feeling depressed.

Mark is a real guy with some foibles but I would rather meet him then Bernie Madoff or George Bush any day.

--
"Surrender Dorothy!"

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[–] Yinky 15 years ago

Well, sure, compared to Madoff or Bush, so would I. But really, I see Mark as the same as these two, just on a smaller scale. It could be argued (or not) that he is even worse, in that he conned an old man whose physical and mental faculties were obviously compromised. That seems worse to me that exploiting someone's greed.

"...washing his clothes, and even his backside, would you do that?"

Well, if I did, I wouldn't do it with a camera rolling.

"Besides, his uncle was sitting on 250K with no family, what else is he going to do with it?"

Well, I don't know, give some to Mark's children, for food, housing and clothing, maybe preschool? Donate some to charity? Pay for a person to wipe his "backside" without a camera present? Your statement is a little harsh, in that the money is his uncle's and not Mark's for the taking....I don't think that Mark is entitled to the money just because he is related to the uncle, or even if he takes physical (not emotional--he ridicules & belittles him) care of the uncle. Nor is he entitled to it just because the uncle doesn't have anything to spend it on. It BELONGS to the uncle, not Mark. It didn't seem to me that the uncle was all fired-up to hand it over, it seemed more like Mark nagged it out of him...but that might be my perception--I really didn't respect Mark or the way he conducted himself/his business.

I don't think Mark is a psychopath or without character; I just don't think much of his practices. His selfishness seems smothering; I felt he used his convictions in a way to bully those close to him into supporting him.

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[–] vincent-27 15 years ago

It's easy to judge, but I didn't see Mark playing up for the camera, it's possible he didn't even know the camera was rolling. I honestly believed that he cared for uncle Bill, now whether he was buttering him up to lend him some money is another story. As for his kids, there was much his ex-girlfriends as his, and they certainly didn't look like they were starving.

In any case, he got his money back, what's the big deal? And I don't know how you could compare Bush or Madoff to Mark at all, Mark seemed very genuine, whereas guys like Bush are the fakest human beings on the planet, completely devoid of any real personality, just an empty vessel to pour in your crazy thoughts.

--
"Surrender Dorothy!"

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[–] Yinky 15 years ago

Interesting observations. But first, regarding Mark, well--to each his own. I respect your opinions and you certainly are entitled to them. Do you actually know him? Just curious; you sound as if you do.

I see Madoff and Bush as loaded with personality, no where near empty vessels. They are the personification of evil, the personification of greed. Maybe the ultimate expression (or culmination) of both. I would love to see an objective documentary on either one--I bet it would be fascinating. (But then, I am also fascinated by serial killers, so evil just might be my "thing.") I am intriqued by your statement "just an empty vessel to pour your crazy thoughts." What do you mean? Are you saying that we made Bush and Madoff the dispicable vultures that they have become, and they are merely a reflection of society, and possibly therefore not to blame for their deeds? If you are, that's a very compelling idea.

Maybe one of the reasons I wasn't so enamored with Mark is because I saw nothing really evil in the guy, just self-indulgence and immaturity (and again, I'm not trying to attack or condemn Mark--as harsh as I'm being--I am trying to make a point and not a personal judgement). I do think Mark has a conscience and that he cares for others in his own way. I really just don't find him very interesting.

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[–] vincent-27 15 years ago

Self indulgence and immaturity is what America is all about, so how appropriate the movie title. Mark is genuine with flaws and I respect him for pursuing his passions even among soul crushing poverty. Like it or not, that's how most successful artist make it, because being an artist is not in any way lucrative until you really master your craft and is inherantly an anti-social activity. It takes the kind of dedication Mark had, albeit he had some other baggage that was preventing him from truly excelling.

--
"Surrender Dorothy!"

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[–] jbhutt0 15 years ago

Yinky, you say Mark is uninteresting yet you've posted about him several times over the course of the year.

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[–] Yinky 13 years ago

Yep, but I only commented on this thread, as I recall. I commented on this movie (though I couldn't remember the name or the name of it's oh-so-fascinating star) on another board for another documentary about "eccentric" characters (who I also found pretty boring). I didn't start the thread, just commented & tried to inspire interesting discussion. Got any?

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[–] hiimryan66 12 years ago

>Bush
>Madof
>Personification of *beep* evil.

Yeah, I mean *beep* Stalin or Uday Hussein! A retard and a fat jew truly are the most evil men on earth!

---

Fokin Prawns.

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[–] Yinky 12 years ago

Okay......

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[–] hiimryan66 12 years ago

No retort, how appropriate

---

Fokin Prawns.

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[–] Yinky 12 years ago

Retort to what? Your bizarre post? Maybe if you made a point about something I would, but just calling someone a retard and whatever the other one was...huh? What does that have to do with...anything?

Also, look up the word "punctuation." It's fun.

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[–] hiimryan66 12 years ago

You said that an idiot and a fat Jew are the personification of evil. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life.

If Bush was the worst humanity had to offer then we'd be a *beep* utopia.

---

Fokin Prawns.

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[–] Yinky 12 years ago

Ok. First of all, I didn't use the words "idiot" or "fat Jew."

Now, even if I did use those oh-so-intellectual terms...THAT'S "the stupidest thing you've ever heard in your life"? Wow, where do you live? I'm clearly in the wrong area code.

I never said "Bush was the worst humanity had to offer." Those are YOUR words. But I do believe his LIES led to millions of deaths. The fact that's he's been practically in hiding actually says more for his character than we would want to believe. But he still deserves to burn in *beep* hell.

AND! Your comment "then we'd be in a *beep* utopia." So you believe that Bush's actions, putting us into a pointless costly (and I don't mean mere dollars here, Einstein) war was NOT an evil act? It was like, oh, I dunno, just like leaving up the toilet seat?

Of course there were/are worse folks than Bush, but that doesn't negate what he's done.

So, whadja think of the movie? Or are you just a troll?

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[–] xfx54 14 years ago

"These idiots are a step away from being homeless, alcocholics, drug addicted, in jail or dead. I don't want to judge but..."

you dont WANT to judge but like an idiot, you just did.

hypocrite

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[–] pbertovich05 14 years ago

It was sad at some points but only when Mark was discussing what his life could be without movies. But when you see Mark and all his friends throughout the movie you feel supporting and laugh with them.

Atleast thats how I saw it. I loved the different characters in the movie and I found Mark very inspiring.

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[–] Withard 14 years ago

Wow there are some truely nasty individuals on here. The original poster clearly has nothing better to do by the looks of things and also seems to like to make things out to be far bigger issues than they are.

Alcoholic? My god do you even know anyone who drinks alcohol? If you came to Europe you would probably have a heart attack at the social drinking. Anyone who takes the time to be so unpleasant about someone isn't worth anyones time. Sorry jane but I wouldn't want to hang with you nor would I ever want any of my friends to meet you.... In fact i think I'll cross over the road.

Get down off the soapbox, stfu and open your eyes to things outside your small "coven" ;)

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[–] JaneSchmo 14 years ago

If I came to Europe? I'm from a country in Europe. And I've been to many nations in Europe besides the one I'm from.

And as such, trust me, this guy was either an alcoholic or on the path to eventually becoming one. There's no way of getting around it. In Europe, America or the Moon, that level of drinking is alarming or at least soon approaching alarming.

stopjohnofgod.blogspot.com

stopsylvia.com

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[–] Withard 14 years ago

Oh well that makes my point even stronger then. You see in America Drinking is not seen as social hence why there are no windows in nearly all bar's. You say your from Europe and you call a guy having drinks on THANKSGIVING and Mike saying "Yeah we used to drink before" as a major problem.

The DSM-IV (the dominant diagnostic manual in psychiatry and psychology) defines alcohol abuse as repeated use despite recurrent adverse consequences. It further defines alcohol dependence as alcohol abuse combined with tolerance, withdrawal, and an uncontrollable drive to drink.

As far as I could tell he displayed NONE of the above.

Its one thing saying "I didn't like the film because" or "Didn't like the character" because they are written and created but you really must have problems if you feel the need to come here and be downright nasty about someone trying to do what he loves in a lifeless environment.

Again you NEED to step back and look at the environment they are from and stop judging from your soapbox.

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[–] JaneSchmo 14 years ago

I saw this movie a long time ago so my memory of it isn't fresh but his past and present drinking seems to have been a lot more than casual social drinking.

A good deal of his buddies are in AA or gambling and drug equivalents...Mike certainly discusses his past and present addictions. So even that indicates what kind of things Mark probably once did or still did.

Several reviews of the film mention Mark's drinking as being alarming so I know it's not just me.

Part of it is someone trying to do what he loves in a lifeless environment, yes, and the environment they are from is to blame and I have sympathy for that- but I also found his single minded obsession with movies more than a little selfish and self serving. Just look at what he does to his parents and especially to his mother. He involves all his friends, his girlfriend, ex wife, children, relatives, etc. in something that HE wants. I also found it really distasteful how he bilks and cons that uncle of his. So the man is stingy. So what? It's still his money. That Mark is *wasting*.

He'd probably have done better for himself and everyone around him if he had found a real job years ago and stuck to it.

stopjohnofgod.blogspot.com

stopsylvia.com

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[–] Withard 14 years ago

"I saw this movie a long time ago so my memory of it isn't fresh"

So then that explains your comments on what he does. He got Bill all his money back just like he said he would. His mother was proud of his determination. His father didnt agree with the "STYLE" of film he was shooting but helped him out. All his friends ENJOYED helping him out and his close friend Mike even says in the film that he is with Mark all the way to help him.

Your basically saying he FORCES people into helping him and is basically a horrible person and yet looking at him as a human being he has done absolutely NOTHING wrong. In fact we have all done MUCH worse.

"Mark Borchardt is the embodiment of a lonely, rejected, dedicated artist. No poet in a Paris garret has ever been more determined to succeed. To find privacy while writing his screenplays, he drives his old beater to the parking lot of the local commuter airport and composes on a yellow legal pad. To support himself, he delivers the Wall Street Journal before dawn and vacuums the carpets in a mausoleum. He has inspired the loyalty of his friends and crew members, and his girlfriend observes that if he accomplishes 25 percent of what he hopes to do, "that'll be more than most people do."

If I wanted to make a film and because of problems, upsets and disasters in the making of it hinder my progress and my friends get supportive and join in to help me that makes me a loser by the sounds. No...its friendship and family.

Well at least one thing is clear and thats that he is doing okay for himself, he realised his dream and his family and friends are all happy with him. Oh apart from Haters on "The Internet".*Golf clap*

P.S Guy has ALOT of talent and his cinematography is much better than alot of the stuff we see today. Juggling producing, directing, writing, sound editing, cutting and preparing amongst other things show he is MORE THAN competent. His Radio plays even won him an award so to say "HUR HUR GUY HAS NO TALENT JUST AMBITION" is the most retarded thing I have heard.

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[–] AcidGlazier 14 years ago

as a mockumentary, this movie is hilarious. as a documentary, its a case study to be discussed in an abnormal psych lecture.

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[–] xfx54 14 years ago

" when i was growin up and drinking, the people that i was around, they were the americans that were still fightin the west with a bottle of vodka in their hand. there was still territory out there....

there was no such thing about college or religion or anything. there was drinkin. drinkin drinkin drinkin drinkin "

:-)

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[–] WolfManNards 14 years ago

Hey guys,

I just saw this movie for the first time the other day, and I've got to say I was entertained as hell.

Mark was clearly an incredibly driven person, however I feel that the way he behaved at a few points in the film were very un-becoming. The thing that really struck me as unlikable was just how he would so clearly look down his nose at hard working people such as factory workers or whomever.

I honestly found it almost poetic how when he first discusse taking the job at the cemetary he seems so convinced that this kind of work is below him, and that it was an entirely temporary situation, and yet he seemed to have been working there for quite some time by the time the movie is over.

As far as the drinking goes, I don't know if he is technically an alcoholic, but it seems pretty clear that the guy has a problem. One scene in particular that I remember has him telling the camera that it was like 11:00am (not sure of the exact time, but definitely before noon) and that he needed to go get started filming for the day. Immediately afterward he pounds down a beer like a frat boy.
That, combined with the scene when Mike says he has $20, and tells Mark he'll spend it, but doesn't want to buy beer with it. Mike responds with something along the lines of "I don't want to BUY beer either.. but if you're buying it, I'll drink it." And that was after he had drank nearly a 12 pack of Pabst seemingly to himself.

Like I said though, I admire the guy's dedication and his drive, I just think that he could probably stand to be less judgmental of the kinds of people who work damned hard for a living.

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[–] bureau203 14 years ago

The thing is, he doesn't have "dedication and drive". He has a dream, and no work ethic. He blames his failure to make the film on everyone else, but he's the one that is supposed to be doing it, and for years before the film he wasn't. He had some ambition and a very small amount of talent, but this is not the story of a filmmaker working hard and achieving something. It's the story of a dreamer who doesn't have the drive to accomplish what he wants, and blames others for his failures.

"I've seen things that would make you want to write a book on how to puke."

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[–] goavs 14 years ago

I think this movie was depressing, but the characters were not which made it inspiring. Mark lived in poverty with his mom. He's divorced and alone. But he still followed his dream and he never stopped. Although the movie shouldn't have taken him that long, he never gave up. He is very inspiring.

I N C E P T I O N
3D is destroying movies

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[–] Yinky 13 years ago

I bet his kids don't find him all that inspiring.

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[–] mvassa71 13 years ago

The people in this film didn't walk off a Hollywood set. They are real people, from lower-middle class, small town, Midwestern backgrounds. I found the film fascinating. There were a million reasons for Mark to give up. How many people do you know that have given up on one thing or another? But this guy was determined. "Close to homeless"? Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, but he didn't let the specter of creeping poverty, dysfunctional relationships and substance abuse derail his dream, and that to me is UPLIFTING, not depressing.

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[–] meccamega 12 years ago

I agree Mark had a lot of obstacles and could've given up easily. I wanted to know how he actually didn't. I unfortunately missed the start of this movie. I think making the film gave him a sense of purpose. E.g when he asked his uncle if he still has any dreams left. He wanted to do more with his life. I can relate to that a lot as well. Although it really annoyed me when he complained about the factory workers. I mean factory work isn't a glamorous job and it's pretty menial. I'm sure a lot of those workers would rather do something better too. I kind of didn't really see anything bad about him getting the uncle's money. The uncle wasn't going to use it anyway. How many people would actually put this amount of effort into doing the same thing? And didn't he want to see his kids more, but he said his ex took the kids interstate or something?

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[–] Errington_92 10 years ago

It was obvious Mark was dedicated towards film-making to escape from his life's harsh realities. Mark felt he was above those in factory jobs due to pursuing his film-making ambitions, however he was similar to them in his lifestyle. Mark's film-making certainly seemed unsuccessful, therefore not achieving the distinguished status he felt set him against the 'common' people. This fact certainly made American Movie a somewhat depressing documentary.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not.

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[–] activista 10 years ago

Saw this film years ago, and honestly, I felt that Borchardt clearly wanted to do something with his life, instead of winding up stuck in the same old track that everybody else he knows is on. He also had the drive to see that whole thing through, and actually accomplished making a movie--I don't understand how the hell anyone could call someone like that a loser. He was funny as hell at times, and I think should have just pursued an acting career full time, since it seems like his dream of being a full-time director didn't pan out.

I also felt that the main reason he really wanted to make that film, not only because he was a film buff, but to prove once and for all to his family and friends that he wasn't just some drunk-a**,crazy weed-smoking loser who was going nowhere in life. I thought is was sweet how his uncle left him enough money to finish the film--obviously he felt it was a decent investment (plus he's seem part of the film anyway, so he knew where the money was going,at lesst.) Liked the film,though, and the fact that it showed just how difficult making a film with limited resources is, for anybody anywhere. (I also thought the part where he was speaking quietly so as not to wake up one of his kids sleeping in his lap was really funny and cute.) I didn't find the film depressing at all, just realistic,that's all.

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[–] wwinter86 9 years ago

Yes very. I guess this wasn't a good choice of viewing when I'd just stopped taking my anti-depressants, as yes I found it very depressing.

I was planning on making my own short horror film (finished first draft) soon, now that I've finished university. Something I've wanted to do pretty much all my life. But this was a BIG wake-up call.
I am a big enough loser with out turning into the guy from this documentary.

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