Does Henry really love Fanny - Mansfield Park (1999) Discussion

[–] jenifefa 19 years ago

I think he just wanted to make a conquest. He thought it would be easy, and when she resists it hurts his ego. He has to work so hard at convincing her that he loves her that he kind of convinces himself. (Just like she said he would.) Actually he is really convincing in the scene when she accepts his proposal.

But it's not real love, and after she rejects him, he quickly turns to Mariah for comfort. It seems to me that if he really loved her, he would have waited and tried again rather than rebounding so quickly. The pain he feels over the rejection is just his bruised ego.

I don't find Edmund at all appealing either. He sees Fanny mistreated and scorned and what does he do? Nothing. Sure, he's nice to her. Big freakin deal. He's not in the same league as other Austen good guys. Colonel Brandon or Darcy would never have acted that way.

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[–] jennifer-milligan 11 years ago

In the Book and superior BBC 1980's adaptation Edmund is shown helping Fanny adapt to life at Mansfield Park, he often defends Fanny from Mrs. Norris' bullying comments and he makes sure that Fanny gets a horse for exercise. He also tries to defend her from having to participate in the play. The film also cuts the plot about Edmund and Mary both giving Fanny necklaces for the ball- this storyline shows that Edmund truly understands and respects Fanny

One thing that did annoy me about this film was that Edmund was portrayed as being in love with Fanny all along with Mary Crawford imposes her attentions on Edmund. In the book Edmund believes he loves Mary until she shows her true nature over Henry and Maria's elopement. This helps him realise that it is Fanny, whom he had previously seen as a sister, as his true love

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[–] alfa-16 19 years ago

No. Henry does not love Fanny. Many people believe that Fanny could have changed Henry and created a successful marriage, but this is wrong.

Henry and Mary are modern, amoral, inward looking, selfish, only intersted in money, pleasure and themselves. They see the world as a playground in which they are lawful predators on the rich and foolish.

Fanny, Sir Thomas, Edmund are conservative, caring, traditional, outward looking, moral and principled (though Edmund wavers, especially during the play).

Uniquely, Mansfield Park also shows us the world outside, in detail when Fanny goes to Portsmouth, and implicitly through Sir Thomas' business in Antigua.

The novel brings into conflict the worlds of principle and lack of principle, which is what makes it a great novel.

The film ignores every important theme to create, instead, a silly sex comedy, which is what makes it trivial.

Henry could never have married Fanny. It would have been six months before he was off after Maria, Julia or any one of a thousand others. Since Fanny realised this, there was never the smallest chance of her accepting him, even if she didn't love Edmund.

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[–] jerinsalmon 19 years ago

Though I agree with you for the most part (IE he probably would have stapped out on Fanny should she have accepted him) I think Henry LOVED THE WAY HE FELT WHEN HE WAS WITH FANNY. I think that because Fanny was good, and he had been around false people like Mary (with no propriety) for so long, it felt good to be with someone as pure and good as Fanny. SO -- He convinced himself that he loved her. (while not knowing it was just the feeling when he was with her!)

So, my answer is, Henry probably didn't love Fanny the way he should, and yes, he wanted the conquest, but it was more about the feeling.

Cheers!

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[–] everpure_17 19 years ago

Henry did not want to make a conquest and if he did it would be his last, what most modern readers do not realize is that in that time period an engagement was almost as final as marriage, just as divorce was so poisonous to ones social standing so was breaking up an engagement. To call it of meant certain social ruin--the only one who could call it off and still hold some social standing was the woman-- and in this case if Henry meant to make a conquest it would mean Fanny being the clingy one in the relationship not the one to wish to break off first.
with some movies, you merely watching people get paid to read lines

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[–] 19 years ago

[deleted]

[–] starryeyedgirl1618 19 years ago

Well said. My thoughts exactly.

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[–] jack-bard 19 years ago

Nothing more, nothing less. Fanny had him pegged from the start, as any reader of 18th century novels should have. Austen used the archtype as a contrast for the other characters. Most notably his sister Mary Crawford. She was a rake as well, which was a somewhat unusual role for a woman, but Austen used the contrast to highlight how much less attractive "rakish" qualities are in a woman. Austen also used Henry as a contrast for Edmund. Henry, although amoral is predictable to the point of reliability. Edmund on the other hand is wishy-washy and infinitely more dangerous. He (perhaps unknowingly) toys with Fanny's emotions. He is himself somewhat of an archtype (the conniving second-son as in King Lear). He's also probably the most villianous character in the story. As a previous poster noted, he didn't do anything to defend Fanny until the end. As far as Fanny turning Henry, it's possible and even likely that what Mary said is true, that Fanny could have "turned him" as perhaps Mr. B was turned by the title character in Richardson's Pamela.

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[–] dolcedolore17 17 years ago

I don't quite agree about Edmund's character. You're correct in saying that he doesn't necessarily stand up for Fanny, but when Mrs. Norris insults her in front of everyone, Edmund is described as being too angry. He was in company after all, and probably would have embarrassed himself had he not kept self-control. I was angry with him for so blindly liking Mary, but this is also not to be blamed completely. Austen states something about how Mary's harp playing, the good weather, the good atmosphere cannot be blamed on Edmund's part, that this would have happened to anyone. To him, Fanny was afterall, like a sister to him, and younger. He did insist on giving Fanny a horse, the chain, etc.

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[–] nubka 17 years ago

ITA with your comments about Edmund. There's so much in the book that this adaptation does not show. Edmund also went out of his way to make sure that Fanny was included in the outing to Sotherton, and defended her against Aunt Norris when she was berating Fanny for not taking a part in the play (Lover's Vow) as her cousin Tom was urging her to do.

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[–] peanuts044 16 years ago

Agreed. I remember the part about the play in the book, it makes more sense when you see Sir Thomas' change in opinion about Fanny in the movie when he returns - its partly because she had the sense not to participate in the play.

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[–] catscratchpost 15 years ago

Edmund is also the first to tell their father, immediately, that Fanny was blameless as per the play. That she was against it from the beginning. In the book, he really does defend her more often. He butts heads with Aunt Norris on several occasions.

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[–] card_stock138 17 years ago

in the final pages of the book, it states explicitly that henry loved fanny and would have been happy with her. furthermore it states that Mary really loved Edmund and regreted her own actions and became a better person,

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[–] cd_boy_33 17 years ago

can you tell me about the brief violent images
is there any nudity?

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[–] sammyletsgotothemalldavi 17 years ago

I think that Henry loves Fanny at the end of it because it says in the book that he loved her at the end. At first he probably just wanted to show that he could make anyone fall in love with her but then he came to realize that instead of making her fall in love with him, he's falling in love with her.

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[–] alfa-16 17 years ago

That's the key point.

After he's screwed up his life and a few others, he realises he had real feelings for Fanny. But he's still kidding himself about being faithful to her.

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[–] wall_e91 17 years ago

I think he loved the thought of being in love with her, rather than actually explicitly loving her.

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[–] jelloinmybelly 17 years ago

I would have to agree. I think it went along the lines of wanting the unattainable as well, just like when he was chasing Maria.

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[–] aerrich 17 years ago

Everyone seems to be missing the fact that Henry was only wooing Fanny to make it easier for his sister to bag Edmund. They were both worldly enough to notice how Edmund really felt about Fanny even when he didn't realize it himself.

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[–] gemtsoi 17 years ago

In the book, it was stated towards the end that Henry did really love Fanny "rationally and passionately". The problem with him was his vanity, which made him go off with Maria Bertram, but even so, without the "smallest inconstancy of mind" towards Fanny. I think the book kinda fleshes Henry's emotions for Fanny more than the movie. He saw what was good in Fanny and he loved her for it because he knew that he himself was a jerk, but his character wasn't strong enough to keep on reforming for her.

Also, in the book, Edmund does go out of his way very often to make Fanny happy. He protects her from the family, oversees her exercise, always tries to make his parents/aunt do what is fair and just by her, is always on her side, and never forgets her. When Henry proposes to Fanny, he's the only one who tells Fanny that she was right in not accepting him (as opposed to the movie). So to call Edmund a villainous character is kinda jaw-dropping.

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[–] bellamae 16 years ago

He protects her from the family, oversees her exercise, always tries to make his parents/aunt do what is fair and just by her, is always on her side, and never forgets her.

Not true, he forgets her on more than one occasion. But he does stand up for her and take care of her most of the time.

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[–] catscratchpost 15 years ago

I agree with your assessment of Henry. It's not that his love is not real, it's that his strength is not equal to it.

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[–] JaneSchmo 15 years ago

You know what's weird about the movie? That the actor, Alessandro Nivola, playing Henry is as convincing at playing a loving suitor as Jonny Lee Miller is.

The scene where she accepts his proposal makes me smile, that's how cute he is in it.

Part of me wishes she ended up with Henry!

What also endeared him to me was how patient and understanding he was about her being in love with another man. Most guys I know would fly into a jealous rage but his behavior towards her showed real class.

Jane Austen does suggest that if only Henry had persisted a little longer, she would have married him.

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[–] Amalthea_Last_Unicorn 16 years ago

"Everyone seems to be missing the fact that Henry was only wooing Fanny to make it easier for his sister to bag Edmund. They were both worldly enough to notice how Edmund really felt about Fanny even when he didn't realize it himself."

Not true. As gemtsoi posted below you, the book states that Henry really did love Fanny, but after Fanny had rejected him due to her distrust of his motives, he went to seek affection from Maria. Henry really didn't love Maria, but she gave him the affection that he craved, and by affection I don't necessarily mean the sex, but the outwards adoration she gave him.
Henry never tried to lure Fanny away from Edmund because he wanted Marry to have him, rather, he lured her away from Edmund because *he* wanted to have Fanny.

If he had waited longer, remaining in good character, Fanny most likely would have married him, just as had Marry not been so outwardly selfish and greedy Edmund would have married her, and everyone would be happy, but in the end only Fanny and Edmund are while Henry and Maria have loveless marriages.

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[–] PinkWeeds 16 years ago

I just finished the book and have these impressions on the matter, I think Austen couldn't decide who to have Fanny end up with for a while but in the end went with Edmond. She stated very clearly at the end that Henry did love her very much and went into great detail as to why things happened as they did, stating his vanity was to blame on his part, that he felt upset that Maria accepted him coldly and wanted her to be in his power again. What he didn't realize was that Maria was always in his power, that she was in love with him but was really pissed off because Mary had hinted to her that Henry was to marry Fanny. Austen even goes as far to state that Maria rejoiced in being the one to break up his chances to be with Fanny, and left him only after it became clear to her that Crawford wasn't about to forgive her for it.

It also states in the book that Crawford had no intention of running away with Maria but wasn't left with a lot of choice on the matter.

'To keep Fanny and the Bertrams from the knowledge of what was passing became his first object. Secrecy could not have been more desirable for Mrs. Ruswhorth's credit than he felt it for his own.-- When he returned from Richmond he would have been glad to see Mrs. Ruswhorth no more.-- All that followed was the result of her imprudence; and he went off with her at last, because he could not help it, regretting Fanny even at the moment, but regretting her infinitely more, when all the bustle of the intrigue was over, and a very few months had taught him, by the force of contrast, to place a yet higher value on the sweetness of her temper, and purity of her mind, and excellence of her principles.' -- That’s one hell of a run on sentence.

But by the end of the book, I felt like perhaps Austen should have gone the other way. Everyone but Fanny left this terrible book with a broken heart. And I can’t come to believe that Edmond really was in love with Fanny. He certainly didn’t love as much as he did Mary and Mary was said to never marry because she couldn’t find anyone she loved as much. And I really didn’t like Edmond at all.

But whomever said that Edmond was the only one who didn’t blame her for not agreeing to marry Crawford is wrong, William was by far more kind to Fanny about it than Edmond was. Edmond wanted her to marry Crawford and tried to persuade her into it, William said he thought highly of Crawford for what he did for him, but that Fanny’s happiness was most important. And he didn’t press her on the subject as Edmond kept doing, even knowing that it was upsetting her.

Edmond was constantly persuading Fanny to doing what he wanted her to do. He never really let her make up her own mind without trying to make her see things his way. He did forget her a lot and was constantly saying things to her that clearly upset her, and even knowing she was upset he kept pressing her.

Crawford didn’t quite know Fanny as well as Edmond did, but he was a great deal more attentive towards her than Edmond was, and he wanted to make her happy and was doing everything to make the sacrifices necessary to make her happy with him. Edmond said he wanted to see Fanny happy, but he couldn’t help but try to force his own opinions on her. In the end, who is to say that Fanny wouldn’t have been happier or wouldn’t have found herself more in love with Crawford than she was with Edmond?

well, I guess that's at least 50% my opinion on the matter, but I think since I formed it after finishing the book, I'm intitled to it, whereas if I had given it before finishing the book or even reading part of it, it wouldn't have counted much.

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[–] megfoster 16 years ago

I totally agree, I've just finished the book again and all the way through, I was struck by how much Henry loved Fanny. I couldn't help but want her to accept him, in spite of the fact that I already knew how it would end. I do like Edmund, and he does love her, I just like Henry more.

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[–] catscratchpost 15 years ago

Me three. In my fantasy ending, Henry just kidnaps her, tosses her in the carriage and takes off with her.

But that would be more Bronte than Austen, wouldn't it? (sigh)

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[–] Unwanted_Birdtamer 16 years ago

It also states in the book that Crawford had no intention of running away with Maria but wasn't left with a lot of choice on the matter.

Sorry, but I think that's a complete cop-out on the part of Henry (and the narrator who's speaking for him). He had absolutely every choice in the matter. He had already left Maria in Richmond; he may have pursued her and led her on, and she may have pressured him, but it's absolutely ridiculous to say that he didn't have a choice in the end result of running off with her. Both she and he would have come out with reputations slightly soiled after carrying on so publicly, but if he had any kind of willpower whatever, he would have ended it there when he came back from Richmond. Then both he and Maria wouldn't have fallen; and he could have even moved on and continued pursuing Fanny if he was truly in love with her like he claimed. I see that whole passage about Henry as the narrator speaking as if she were him, and it's interesting that although the narrator says that if justice were truly served, Henry would have been just as bad off as Maria; and then immediately goes on try and lay most of the blame on Maria. Just as society generally did with the women in the matters. Henry was a grown man, utterly capable of making his own choices. He had clearly never been one to give in to others before if he didn't want to do something, he had a strong and forceful personality and was generally the one persuading others to do what he wanted; and yet suddenly he didn't have a choice in the matter of Maria? Suddenly he couldn't say no? I'm sorry, I don't buy it at all.

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[–] nefjones 16 years ago

I was so glad to see towards the end of the post that people began to see things my way. Henry DID love Fanny... he had much more practice being an a..hole than being a good man, and in the end, his weakness got the better of him. Isn't that reaping and sowing though... he'd broken so many hearts, no wonder his got broken in the end. And I think, had he maintained his constancy, then he would have ended up with Fanny, I think she was weakening for him, at least I was when I saw his sincerity in Portsmouth (in both the book and the movie) He was genuinely hurt when she didn't accept him, but instead of being steadfast, he went for easy prey... he's a dummy, but he did love her.

As for Edmund, I have mixed feelings about him. He was obviously taken in by Mary... I began to believe he was so blinded by her beauty, that he forgot to look at her in a real way... Fanny started to see through her much faster than Edmund did. Tom's getting sick opened up a lot of eyes though... and in the end, our heroine, Fanny who maintained herself throughout, got what she wanted... I think that's as close to a happy ending Ms. Austen could get in on this particular story. Edmund is no Darcy and no Wentworth, but we shall give him his space of respectability among the Austen men.

I also think it was good for Edmund to have someone to compare Fanny to... to see her worth alongside another as superior.

Note:In my original post I put Edward instead of Edmund...getting my Austen's confused!

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[–] dreaminginmidsummer 16 years ago

I think it is easier to like Henry, because he was flawed and admitted it, but had the good sense to fall in love with a woman like Fanny, while Edmund fell for Mary, has he never read novels, doesn't he know how this will end?

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