Helm's Deep


The Battle of the Hornburg is one of the coolest siege sequences committed to film. It's so well crafted that it's almost a mini-movie. It's incredibly thrilling to watch, and was put together with such detail and care. What a great film!

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Yes, it's cinematography like this which makes the LotR movies the best trilogy on film.

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The siege is like a mini-movie inside the trilogy. It's like taking a break that isn't a break. It's a brilliant climax for the storyline of the middle part - the defense and recruitment of the Rohirrim.

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OG Star Wars gives it a run for its money.

And "unofficial trilogies" bring up some formidable competition, most notably from The Three Colours Trilogy and The Dollars Trilogy. And, heck, The Godfather Trilogy. I haven't seen part three, but even if it's utter dreck (I can't imagine it's a total write-off) it's still got two of the best films of all time balancing that out.

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Star Wars OT won't be topped. Back to the Future is still fun. Godfather 3 is the runt of the litter. Sophia's acting cannot be unseen.
No idea of the plot though as I gave up half way through. Kinda like TDKR really.

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I have it on DVD on my shelf, I just never watched it. I always go, "Oh, I should watch 1 and 2 first," and by the time I'm done doing that, I've received such a great, complete story that I don't feel like wading into something that will put a damper on it.

Back to the Future is fun, but it's like the Matrix Trilogy: all three are good, fun action films, but the first is a sublime accomplishment of art and genius and the others are just "okay".

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Matrix 2 and 3 were terrible ... Action sequences and clunky dialog. BTTF 2 and 3 are fun but 2 does disappear up its own arse with time paradox stuff. Which makes me recommend an obscure Japanese movie called summer time machine blues, which parodied this brilliantly and is massively recommended.

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Weirdly enough, I think I'd rather dip back into Matrix 2 and 3 than BttF 2 and 3. The action sequences are mighty impressive, the aesthetics are great, and the dialogue - clunky though it is - does have a boatload of philosophy to chew on. I also like a lot of the concepts they put out. Club Hel, the Merovingian, the train man, the keymaker: these (and others) were all great ideas (albeit poorly executed ones). BttF 2-3 are fluffy, but not in a good way (to me, anyway). I agree that 2 was worse than 3, which I did kinda like. But that "chicken" subplot was...what was that...!? I did like 3, but I didn't really like part 2 at all.

I maintain that, if Matrix 1 didn't exist (or wasn't as awesome as it is) then No.2 and No.3 would be thought of as kinda funky, weird, decent action movies that bit off more than they could chew. But I think the sheer chaotic madness of them (there's wire-fu! and ghosts! and mecha! and squid robots!) would inspire a kind of Buckeroo Banzai cult following.

Just a theory, of course. We'll never know for sure because they will forever stand behind the brilliant candle that is Matrix 1.

I'll check out Summer Time Machine Blues. Thanks for the recommendation.

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As much as I love the Star Wars OT, it was not made with as much care and planning as LOTR. They made it up as they went along and it shows.

The LOTR trilogy was a formidable tour de force that will never be matched. Perfect timing, perfect director, perfect cast, perfect special effects, perfect set and costume designs, perfect soundtrack. All before the age of wokeness which is now ruining all fantasy movies and shows.

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I very much disagree with you , just about any action sequence from either TDK or TDKR was better. Helms deep was too overly choreographed and too over the top, seriously legolas shield surfing down the stairs was just preposterous

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Preposterous...or awesome...!?

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Preposterous

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Weirdest way I've ever seen anybody spell "awesome".

Autocorrect problem?

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Nope you read that correctly

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Auto-correctly.

I'm only processing the shield surfing as awesome.

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STFU, MCU497. I wonder why I haven't Ignored you yet, in fact.

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But... TDKR is complete SHIT. Many people have said so, like so many plot holes, etc. Bane was interesting at the time, but I actually couldn't understand what he was saying, even though I'm a Brit like Hardy, but also, Bane went out like a bitch.

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Like when the army bought heavy artillery into a suspension bridge when trying to negotiate with Bane. I mean - duh!

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There are no plot holes I have debunked all of them and they are all a result of not understanding the movie. Pay attention next time

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The problem, MCU497, is that the Dark Knight Trilogy is flawed not just with TDKR, but with BB also: why would a microwave emitter aimed at water pipes not explode everyone around it? Stupid stupid stupid.

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Why would Legolas say the stars are veiled when they are clearly visible in the background?

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I think Legolas means in a metaphorical sense, which should be obvious to everyone who saw that scene. Don't you think even Jackson would've picked up on what you said, "visible stars"?

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How is that metaphorical? If he's going to say the stars are veiled then they shouldn't be plainly visible.

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Elves have exceptional eyesight, this is mentioned in the movies. He can obviously see something that humans can't.

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But we can see the stars

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But we can't see what Legolas sees because we're not elves.

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Exactly this! In Tolkien's mythology many Elves have abilities that border on the supernatural. They would be quite "natural" to Elves, of course. Galadriel describes magic in a way that hints that it isn't what we think it is.

Legolas here would be referring to some shift in the natural world which - literal or metaphorical - would not be noticeable to humans. It could be that there is (metaphoric) pall between Legolas and the stars which was not there before, preventing him from knowing something intrinsic to them which was perhaps visible and perhaps not.

It's also possible that there are faint stars which we can't see but Legolas could and those have darkened or dimmed.

It's really obvious that Legolas is speaking of omens and portents moreso than a literal veil being drawn across the stars. Obviously.

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Rather like humans with independent thought can see crap in Nolan's movies where sheep can't.

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You said he can see thing we can’t but we can see the stars so by your logic we can see things he can’t which makes no sense

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^^^ this should be the dictionary definition of 'non sequitur'.

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^^^this should be the dictionary definition of "misusage"

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Maybe they're not as bright as usual?

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Don't worry, Nolan defenders are normally this dim.

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Well I meant the stars overhead being dimmer than usual, but that doesn't make you wrong about Nolan fans.

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You speak truthfully; a veil doesn't render invisible, but merely obscures or diminishes so as not to be seen as clearly.

I do think it's more of an omen or metaphor, but "veiled" does not literally mean "gone".

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I actually think that line was meant to be taken quite literally, a indication that the atmospheric conditions weren't normal. At that time, Sauron was ramping up his pet volcano and was planning to produce so much smoke and ash that the sunlight was blocked, thereby demoralizing the good guys and making conditions right for sending out armies of light-sensitive foot soldiers.

You know, like we've had to deal with here in California for THE LAST TWO FUCKING MONTHS. FYI it's been as demoralizing as fuckall, even though it's not cover for an invasion or the result of malign powers at work.

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I like the way Gandalf described it in the movie, "a broil of fume he sends to cover his host on their march to war".

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Yes, must of the last two months could be fairly described as "a broil of fume".

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That's an interesting take on it; hadn't thought of it... Mordor would be quite shrouded due to volcanic activity, yes.

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This is pure crap, but it could be that the microwave emitter puts out its sci-fi beams at a certain frequency that only vapourizes water that is in a concentrated deposit...? Then again, I'm assuming that would still affect the liquid in our stomachs...

Whatever.

Batman Begins was cool, so I give it a pass on the microwave emitter flaw. I'd say this is particularly because that Macguffin could just be "really big bomb" and the plot wouldn't *really* change all that much. Scarecrow would just have build a big fear gas bomb instead of an emitter.

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Yes, it was everything that a filmed battle sequence should be - tight, gripping, exciting, involving.

Gawd, I miss the days when PJ or someone on his team could edit films the way they should be edited, what the hell happened there.

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With the Hobbit films, I just think he didn't want to do them. He offloaded it onto Del Toro, then it bounced around in development hell, people around him probably pressured him like maniacs because lots of jobs depended on it, people wanted to see the movie, "You're the right guy for the job, Peter!" and he went, "Oh, fine!" but because he didn't really want to be there the quality suffered.

There are LOTS of other factors, too, of course, like how the studio needed three films ($$$) so they had to bulk out everything. That would hurt the editing.

I'm looking forward to Jackson's restoration of the Let It Be footage; I think he really cares about that (based on interviews) and I think he'll do a great job bringing a new look at the Beatles.

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If you're interested in what went wrong with the "Hobbit" films, I highly recommend three videos by top internet film geek Lindsay Ellis: "A Long Awaited Autopsy", "The Battle of Five Studios", and "The Desolation of Warners". They're superbly researched, highly entertaining, and not that long, available on youtube and 3elswhere. Apparently that hot mess was even worse behind the scenes.

Anyway, I still wonder what went wrong with the editing in PJ's films, there's not a frame wasted in the Battle of Helml's Deep, but even by ROTK things were starting to meander and go on too long. Something went wrong on the film editing front, I wonder if it was self-indulgence on PJ's part as he got seriously popular, or if he lost a valuable member of the editing staff.

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By Return of the King I think they were doing re-edits and re-shoots and putting a bunch of stuff in that the studio would have made them trim.

None of it bugs me in Lord of the Rings; these films are so darn good that I can't get enough of them, so extra content is not a problem.

I enjoy Lindsay Ellis' channel, although I haven't seen the Hobbit vids yet.

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I really do recommend Ellis's films on the Hobbit disaster, she really dug deep and found a very interesting story.

Anyway, I still wonder if someone crucial on the editing team left, or if it really was all PJ's fault. In the behind the scenes stuff on the DVDs, which I've watched as much as I've watched the actual films, someone said that during post-production for ROTK, PJ wasn't meeting deadlines or turning stuff over to the right departments to be worked on, perhaps the stress of a massive project was getting to him. But that was the point at which he started to develop bad habits and let everything he thought was cool go on too long. "The Two Towers" might be my favorite of the LOTR trilogy, and it might have been his last perfectly edited film.

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A friend of the family says that Helm's Deep itself is cool, but it's interrupted by what he called the boring "tree people" parts. The way I see it, you need a breather after such intense action, and those scenes do just that.

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Agreed. Plus, with Treebeard, you get the ever-approaching attack on Isengard, which is still a threat to the victory of Helm's Deep. If Saruman and his forces remain unboughed by the Ents, even a defeat of the Uruk-hai at the Hornburg would prove short-lived. The Ents attack on Orthanc was a necessary element to the ultimate conclusion of the story and the combat, as well as - as you rightly state - providing a small intermezzo.

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Yeah, my above comment was the friend's first viewing. I figured he changed his mind when he saw the Ents trash Isengard, an awesome sequence. I think he liked the bit where the Ent set on fire by the orcs puts himself out in the deluge of the River Isen flooding the whole area! I think everyone was rooting for that guy! :D

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That's such a great moment in the story. Every time I see it, every time I read it, it's so thrilling. It's great. Saruman thinking he's king of the world brought low by the very natural forces he seeks to defile and dismiss. It's nice seeing the egomaniacal dictators brought low.

Yeah, I seem to recall that Ent actually dying in the book, or at least it's implied, but I think he survives in the film, yes? Either way, he and the others certainly made Saruman understand that bark sometimes is worse than bite.

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