Watch this then watch Hero - Jing Ke ci Qin Wang (1998) Discussion

[–] 20 years ago

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[–] 20 years ago

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I just bought the DVD of this today at Borders. I liked Hero a whole lot. I'm really looking forward to watching this tonight. Thanks for the recommendation. If I hadn't have read this topic, I probably would have never thought to check this film out..............

"They won't let us play the Rambos until we stop playing the Sambos!" --Paul Mooney

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[–] TreeKing 19 years ago

Yeah both movies good. But in general, I think Emporor and the Assasin is WAY better; although HERO achives that Crouchin Tiger/Iron Monkey feel which is sweet.

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[–] The_Magical_Negro 19 years ago

One thing I didn't really understand from watching Hero was why they all wanted to kill the King of Qin so badly. He is depicted as a rather noble ruler who is only looking out for the best interests of his people in Hero. Hero never really went into how tyrannical he was. But The Emperor and The Assassin spelled it out for me perfectly. The King of Qin was truly one EVIL bastard. I mean, he was willing to kill anyone he even suspected of trying to usurp his power and authority, even his own family. So, in terms of explaining the whole story, The Emperor and The Assassin is definitely the better movie. Hero was really all about the colorful cinematography, the flashy wire-fu, and the tragic love story between Broken Sword and Flying Snow. The King of Qin was really just side character in that film............This movie feels closer to the truth of what really happened and Hero feels more like the mythical interpretation of those events.

"They won't let us play the Rambos until we stop playing the Sambos!" --Paul Mooney

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[–] naith 19 years ago

I totally agree with You... BUT I really don't think that the King of Qin was "truly one EVIL bastard". Of course the interpretation depends on our politics/ideas/morality etc. but I think that even the director don't thoght that way. It's far too complicated (that's why it's so great) to judge him so decisively. Recall the last scene of the film, it exhibits in great way the complexity of this character and the whole story.

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[–] bagger_55 19 years ago

Keep in mind, that in "China," or what we now know as China, the history of a dynasty was always written by the following dynasty. In this case, the Han wrote the history of the Qin. Whenever a new dynasty took power, they had to establish some sort of legitimacy, or prove that they held the "Mandate of Heaven." Those who wrote the history of the previous dynasty, who were comissioned by the new ruing dynasty, would often take liberty at embelishing the truth in order to make the previous ruler look as if they had lost the mandate of heaven. While Qin Shi Huang (the Qin emperor) probably was a megalomaniac, he probably wasn't as bad as the Han records make him out to be. Keep in mind that he unified a group of states, coinage, roads, measurement, etc... The only reason Han was a success was because of the Han's ability to capitlize on the accomplishemnts of Qin Shi Huang.

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[–] moslerssjmu 18 years ago

Bravo...lot of people see these cultural movements as binary opposites (i.e. good vs bad). That sort of thinking is limited, and in no way even begins to delve into the complexities of human nature. I find when people develop an opinion about a social group (whatever it may be in that specific instance) they tend to over simplify and lose perspective.

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[–] Royalcourtier 9 years ago

You are presuming that the king was evil, and therefore his representation in The Emperor and the Assassin is accurate. That may not be the case.

Do not forget that the movie was made in Communist China. The Communist Party regime controls the movie industry, and films are made to reflect official ideology. Nothing from China is free from the tyranny of the party. Hero was made by a Hong Kong company, and so is less likely to be following the party line.

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[–] s3019653 19 years ago

I really did like hero, but I liked the Emperor and the Assassin much more. They are supposed to be the same story but they seemed completely different to me. Hero was good for its effects. I'm sure it was much bigger budget than E&A considering it was also packed with big name actors. What was great about E&A though was that it really took you into the story and it developed the characters so well. Hero did not have much character development at all.

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[–] codydarling 19 years ago

Emperor and the Assasin was great for the backstory, but all it did was make hero that much better. Granted, Hero didn't have the plot or the well developed secondary characters, but the characters it did develop were great. I feared Ying Zheng in Hero way more than i did in this movie, and that's just because he was respectable. Here, he bursts out crying and throws little tantrums, and sure it makes him seem more complex, but there were two problems with it. The actor wasn't strong enough to play him as complex and therefor it comes off as annoying. Same thing with Jing Ke (the assasin) He was comepletely awesome up to the point where he gets drunk with general Fan, then they start tickling eachother and it's downhill from there.

*spoiler*spoiler*spoiler*spoiler*

when he meets the emperor he turns into a bumbling fool like the Marquis. He shows his *beep* just after the bridge stunt, but that's all. When he tries his coup, he's a bumbling fool again. Same with Jing Ke, he just giggles, he doesn't actually try to fight. The characters, although well developed, were just *beep* characters, and (for the most part) their complexity was underused. The part where Jing Ke is trying to rescue the little boy is amazing, he's such a badass, but he looses sight of that when he gets to the King of Qin. Of course he couldn't kill him, but they could have had a good battle or something cool. it sounds kind of corny, but it's just like www.realultimatepower.net says, you just want him to flip out and kill everyone in the room a bunch of times, then wail on a guitar, but he doesn't. LAME.

Also, the cinamatography was nowhere near as pretty as Hero. This movie simply wasn't very pretty. There wasn't much color at all. There were a few cool shots, like the little kid's bright blue hand poking out of the dirt, but they were few and far between.

Basically, my advice is, See this movie, it's pretty good, but see it BEFORE Hero. If you don't, you'll just be disappointed. And if you see this first, you don't need the backstory in hero.

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[–] ghimn_uk 19 years ago

I prefer EA to Hero, period. But seems we all would agree that EA pretty much deserves the amount of attention Hero is paid. Speaking of acting, codydarling, let's leave that issue where we couldn't tell about performances in a foreign language. For example, Akira Kurosawa is great, but am I the only one to whom Toshiro Mifune sounds too much?

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[–] Bisento 19 years ago

"Hero was good for its effects. I'm sure it was much bigger budget than E&A considering it was also packed with big name actors."

...Gong Li isn't a big name actress?

Obey, trembling creatures, and do not desire, for that is no business of yours!

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[–] cpuuk 19 years ago

I would summarise Hero as being a feast for the eyes, and Emperor & Assassin a feast for the mind (and emotions). If someone had combined both, we'd have had another Crouching Tiger on our hands ^_^

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[–] three_halves_plus_one 19 years ago

I must disagree with you. Both are feasts for the mind. Emperor & Assassin is more direct with its main themes, but Hero has more themes than meets the eye. For instance, Hero deals with the role of Art in one's life and how it shapes perception. Color symbolism also plays a large role in Hero. While it is visually stunning, I consider that its least important attribute. That is not to say Hero is necessarily better than E&A, just different. Both are excellent films and I'm glad I've seen both!

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[–] ripplezhu 19 years ago

Absolutely all of you don't understand the history of China.

Nearly each Chinese considered YING XIONG(Hero) as a Sci-fi rubbish,which is totally for you foreigners ,and it can't be compared with Jing Ke Ci Qin Wang(The Emperor and the Assassin) at all.

Sorry for my poor English.

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[–] aka_frankcastle 19 years ago

I doubt all Chinese are as condescending as you, ripplezhu.
While I prefer The Emporer and the Assassin to Hero, I still thought Hero was a beautifully shot, enjoyable film.
It was far rom rubbish.

They aren't really in the same genre, in my opinion.

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[–] central_p 19 years ago

:) I like the oppinion of the China man! The people of the West are trained to watch rubbish movies. As much westwards you go as much more the people get ignorant and prefer false stories, stupid action and brainwashing movies, rather than real cinema.

After I've watched so many Hollywood trash in my youth, I can't stand to watch almost any American movie anymore.

I don't like sweet, stupid, Hollywood-inspired actioin-love stories, I prefer the real stuff, that teaches me something, that can make me think about life and its existance!

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[–] dark_frances 10 years ago

Well it's your fault if you only watch Hollywood trash. There are many really good, deep, visually impressive American movies, which you seem to be missing due to misinformed prejudice. Like there are so many American movies which haven't even been produced in Hollywood.

As to your opinion of the people in the West - if you go westwards far enough you will have walked the whole Earth and ended up where you started. Same thing if you go eastwards.

there's a highway that is curling up like smoke above her shoulder

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[–] thebeautifulones 18 years ago

ripplezhu, that's a bit harsh. I've watched Chinese movies almost all my life, and am pretty familiar with the history of China.

Ying Xiong should be watched for the cinematography and the message in swordsmanship, nevermind that the fight scenes may not be very realistic. That bit is true.

Having said that, I'm told that martial arts these days are based more on physical strength than internal strength or Qi.

The Emperor and the assassin and Hero are different stories about an essential event in Chinese History: unification was necessary.

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[–] rachid_usmc 17 years ago

Yeah that was pretty damm arrogant. Its not like China or any other country would appreciate US history too well either. But anyways, both "Hero" and The "Emperor and the Assasin" were great movies. Sci-fi rubbish or not, that genre is doing quite well since there are tons of martial arts movies are churned out every year that doesn't make that doesn't make it to the US.

In Hero, it was all about fancy action and visuals with a touch of a central theme of Chinese unity. Nothing more, but still a good movie. "Emperor and the Assasin" was just an epic story telling of the same situation of that era. Great visuals also, not as action facny though.

The fighting in Hero while cool to watch, may not be too realistic in today's fighting styles. But back then in China and other parts of Asia, there was more heavy use of QiGong (internal kung-fu) and constant usage of a technique called "Qing Gong" which essentially means "light body skills". While it may not be constant flying and leaping all over the place, this technique would allow a martial artist to scale buildings and leap very high quite easily. From what I understand Qing Gong is becomming a lost art and only very few areas in China still pratice this technique.

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[–] Phyll 17 years ago

So does E&A contain any of the calligraphy/standardisation of writing theme that Hero had?

I can't wait to actually see this film - i can't believe i've missed it for so long!

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[–] millinay2001 17 years ago

from what I remember the answer would be no.... They are truly different movies at the core....
I wouldn't call our chinese friend condescendant or harsh considering the few words he had to use to make himself as clear as possible (when english is not your language that's not always as easy as that keep that in mind, people)
I would rephrase what I think he meant since that is what I myself think anyway :
The E & A would be a true asian movie made with chinese concepts and ideas.... Something meant to ring true to an asian audience....while Hero would be more of an american movie disguised as an asian one... tailored to suit western audiences only and made only with western expectations in mind... It doesn't make one film better than the other... They are just as different as food when you get a takeaway noodle box in the US is different from sitting in a chinese restaurant in China....
People who liked Crouching tiger would better like Hero probably because they are the same kind of movies... Made for westerners.... (and it's not meant to be offensive)

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] michaelgrilo 17 years ago

I've seen reports that the budget for Emperor and the Assassin was around $20m, where-as Hero was around $30m, so I wouldn't say that Hero had that much more of a budget if you consider that Hero had a lot more named actors to pay so the money towards production costs were probably closer than you might imagine.

"when he meets the emperor he turns into a bumbling fool like the Marquis."

I thought they made it obvious that Jing Ke was putting on an act at this point, especially when he winks to his assistant. He did that to disarm the King and make him feel like there was no threat present.

I also thought EatA was just as beautiful as Hero, but in a different way. It wasn't presenting a lush environment, it was presenting a dreary land in need of change. Bright and accentuated colors don't equate to good cinematography, at least in my opinion. I don't see how Hero would be considered sci-fi in any regard, I think fantasy is more the appropriate word. Having said that I probably liked Hero slightly more. I would give them both really really high 9's. I was more emotionally involved in Hero, but I really appreciated the history, be it a bit fabricated or not, in EatA. Although it seems like an unpopular opinion, I liked House of Flying Daggers better than both of these movies. Ziyi Zhang captivates me like few actresses can and I thought Takeshi Kaneshiro was perfectly cast.

To bark at another comment in this thread, I am so sick of people talking so much trash about Hollywood cinema. Around the world, any cinema run my corporations is just like Hollywood. They focus on what makes money. Cinema sponsored by the government tends to tell better stories, but it also puts out a lot less stories so they really have to be selective if they want to make an impact. I think the people that get so fed up with the Hollywood scene or American cinema aren't trying AT ALL to find good films. If you can try so hard to find a great film like EatA, I assure you that with the same effort you can find amazing movies in America from the past and movies that are coming out. I watch just as many foreign movies as I do domestic and I wouldn't choose one area over another. People all over the world have something to say.

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[–] dark_frances 10 years ago

That's a very nice message, and I agree with most its points (including the personal preference for Hero; I liked House of Flying Daggers too but to a lesser degree). I'd only add that the visuals here reminded me a little of Wong Kar-Wai's Ashes of Time.

there's a highway that is curling up like smoke above her shoulder

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