Geez Loueez, wtf is with this Brit's shows diatribe on American? No American spy, adventure, or action TV show treat the UK with the same contempt with which MI-5 heaps on the US. In every epi I've seen (up to 604) if the US is involved in the show's plot, it is an evil-doer. Israel was portrayed similarly. Unbelievable.
shareYou know, quite often there are also Muslim terrorists, and home-grown British ones. The French are sniped at, and the Russians are the baddies on a regular basis too. Including throughout one entire series! And on more occasions than I can remember members of the British political establishment, the British civil service, and Harry's own staff, turn out to be traitors.
I really think British TV producers have better things to do than 'heap contempt' on Americans.'Spooks'is a TV drama, not a political dissertation. It's made with a sense of humour. A British, self-deprecating one, I agree, but if you try and watch it in that spirit, you might find it less offensive.
Do you really never have shows in America in which fun is poked at the British? You're missing a huge opportunity if not! :)
Please, not another post complaining about the supposed anti-Americanism of Spooks. There have been too many of those already. (The same goes for the complaint about the fake American accents.)
So I will just (mostly) copy and paste what I've said before. Because I'm sick of the whinging.
Many people have complained that Americans are quite often the bad guys in this show, but I don't see how this is different than the other way around. How many American shows/films feature American bad guys? (At least when it's about something international). They're always foreign. NOBODY else complains about it though. I long lost count of all the films and shows where other nations are being ridiculed and maligned.
Americans are allowed to criticise everyone and anyone, but are so overly sensitive when someone criticises them.
(The only show I can think of that dared to show the American government in a bad light was the X-Files. This show could not be made anymore today the same way it used to.)
On American TV there are still the bad cold war Russians, the Nazi Germans, the effeminate French, and of course everybody Middle Eastern. Always with cringe-worthy fake accents. Plus the audience is very often treated to a delightfully "inspiring" speech about the superiority of American democracy and the American Way.
It always seems as if Hollywood doesn't know anything about any foreign nation. Not even the most basic things. Cliches abound. There is so often a casual contempt of everything non-American. Again, nobody ever comments on it though. Because that would be wrong.
As noticed by many other viewers, Spooks had predominantly Muslim and home-grown British terrorists and traitors, bad Russians and the French were made fun of. Where is the outrage? Of course, nowhere. But America deserves a special treatment?
As I said before, many episodes of the series were made during the Bush administration which was despised the world over. America may have viewed Bush as part of the Holy Trinity, that view was not necessarily shared. The W era sentiment of "If you even dare to mildly criticise America, you hate America" just does not cut it.
America will have to learn to deal with criticism just like any other country. The brownie points from WW2 are used up. How other nations see America does obviously not square with America's self-image. Well, tough.
America lives in a well-sealed bubble, cut off from the rest of the world. So in their own opinion (definitively supported by Hollywood) they are the saviours of the world and get very angry if anyone so much as questions this belief.
So, please, no more whiny "outraged" posts from Americans. It's infantile.
Jessica Rabbit
"I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."
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while Hollywood often indirectly suggests that anyone with a slightly above average IQ and a Brit accent has to be somehow evil or duplicitous.
United States of Anger.
shareAnd what's with Die Hard 5 making the Russians the villain again. The Cold War ended 20 years ago for crying out loud.
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Well hell then, I guess I need my pants.
Perhaps Americans don't really understand the way America treats its supposed allies, at least in the intelligence ring. Its not just America, its the whole damned world, its just that America is the top dog so they get to basically treat people however they please, and that often means running rough shod over the interests of its so called allies much to their chagrin.
Its been reputed over the years that American intelligence agencies are sometimes reluctant to give unlimited intel to the Israeli Mossad for instance because apparently the Israeli intelligence culture has a very low opinion of the CIA and generally takes but gives back very little.
Frankly anybody with even a cursory understanding of how international relations works wouldn't think it odd to see America being complete pricks to its allies. Do you really think that all the members of the former Soviet Union or the eastern bloc nations today which are closest to Russia's orbit love(d) the KGB/FSB?
I think really anyone who sees this as anti-American must be one of those people who actually believes the propaganda about how nice their country is. Nobody's country is nice, we're all jerks and given half a chance we'd all be imperial bastards. The only difference is that America has won history's lottery and become as successful as only a handful of nations have ever been and so behaves in accordance. I'd say that America is a hair better than the Russians, but thats only because of the relative freedoms of the Constitution that slow down the ponderous and methodical march into the authoritarian abyss that always comes with a powerful intelligence state.
Also, Americans must remember that Britain has a very uncomfortable relationship with America at times. Following WW2 the transition as America superseded Britain as the premiere super power lead to all manner of cultural shift, and of course America was not always the most understanding partner. Its a facet of British history to comment on the Americans, especially their intelligence culture.
Don't forget though, that Harry had a very nice relationship with the character of James Coaver(sp?) in the CIA from the Cold War, so its not as if they completely damn the Americans. Rarely did they ever make America look like a nation devoid of humanity, simply one who's motives were always suspect as any nation would and of course, if you think you can trust any intelligence agency then you're just a fool in general.
If you don't already realize it, everyone spies on everyone else. Canada spies on America, America spies on Canada, the Mossad for a time reportedly used Canadian passports for their agents to move around the world, everyone's leveraging everyone else for intelligence, and then the diplomats get to put on their fake smiles and hold up pretense against inference and try to keep the treaties in order.
America is a bastard, but thats only because they're the biggest one. Britain has done its fair share, and like someone else in this thread said, Spooks has done a good job of pretty much throwing everyone under the bus at some point.
Just look at the news today. There are UN aide workers in Pakistan being killed trying to give out Polio vaccines and the excuse the extremists get to use to win people over is that the CIA last year did a fake Hepatitis vaccination campaign in order to come up with intel that lead to killing bin Laden. CIA making a mess for everyone else. Sounds like a classic scenario.
Really intelligent and balanced post, detroit-velvet-smooth. Most posts dealing with America, not just on this board, seem to be unabashedly anti-American or pro-American.
There are a lot of Americans who react defensively when someone brings up America's faults. Are many of them not as educated about the world and America's role in it as they could be? And are some overly jingoistic? Yes.
Yes, America is far from perfect and a lot of its policy is geared towards its own interests primarily and the world second. However, t are not the world's worst villains by any means, and there is no "empire" in the history of the world that has acted better. More importantly, every country looks out for its own interests first and the world and other countries second, and a distant second, just as America does.
As far as the show, the portrayal of Americans as evil didn't bother me in a political sense, just as when I watched 24 I never assumed that whichever nationality was the villain du jour was representative of the country or religion. If Americans were the only "evil" country portrayed that would be one thing, but the Russians or Mulsims didn't get a good treatment either, though maybe not as bad as the Americans. As far as TV goes, having the Americans always be the villains took away some of the suspense, as you knew the shoe was going to drop at some time.
There are UN aide workers in Pakistan being killed trying to give out Polio vaccines and the excuse the extremists get to use to win people over is that the CIA last year did a fake Hepatitis vaccination campaign in order to come up with intel that lead to killing bin Laden. CIA making a mess for everyone else. Sounds like a classic scenario.
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Ah, but has anyone told Vladimir Putin that?? :)
shareJust happened across this comment coincidentally today. Considering Ukrainian events of recent weeks, this just seems too wonderful.
shareThe comment about Bush being "part of the holy trinity" made me lol.. I seriously doubt any American thought if him that highly..
shareangel, I used to live in the US for a few years during the Bush administration, and can definitively say that for many people Bush (and the rest of the bunch) seemed to be not only great heroes, but also saints who could do no wrong.
A lot of those nutters could be found lecturing on Faux Noose, but they weren't the only ones.
Any kind of dissent was strongly discouraged and people who spoke out against W were very effectively silenced and simply branded anti-American traitors.
At the same time "Freedom" (whatever it means) was stuffed relentlessly down everyone's throat.
It was truly ugly to witness.
Jessica Rabbit
"I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."
This is reason #1 why one should never judge a people by the content of its media, which by its nature focusses almost solely on the more vocal or extreme elements of a populace. That's like saying many British football fans from the 90s were hooligans who would just as soon as hit you than say a nice word to you if you were sitting next to them. Which I know is not true.
shareAny kind of dissent was strongly discouraged and people who spoke out against W were very effectively silenced and simply branded anti-American traitors.
lol @ this guy
shareAs for Fox, it is pretty much the only mainstream places to go for a differing opinion and to see stories the rest of the mainstream ignores. Much of what people get here and probably true in Europe is anything from liberal leaning to leftwing nuts. Turns a lot of people into sheeple.
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While I like what you had to say, you neglected to mention one thing. When American shows show foreign countries as evil-doers it is, in probably 99% of the cases, NOT the UK. Period.
shareI'm an American who thoroughly enjoys each episode, and don't find them at all offensive. If I did, I'd have stopped watching long before Season 6!!
shareIf I had ten quid for every Hollywood flick in which the chief baddie has been British, I'd be a rich man. Please, enough of the whining. You lot can dish it out, so take it for a change too.
shareDetroit-velvet, very good post. I like it and agree with most of it.
The reason why I wrote a pissy post was that I was, and still am, so utterly sick of Americans complaining about other nations who criticise them.
There seems to be the belief among many Americans that their country is above reproach.
As I said I don't hear anybody else complain when Hollywood once again makes fun of other nations and cultures.
Frankly, the portrayal of Americans in Spooks was really quite nice compared to the other way around.
And next time Hollywood has another evil Russian/German/French/Arab played by an American actor (including bad accent), it would be nice if that actor at least had a basic understanding of the lines he is reading.
Jessica Rabbit
"I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."
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You have to remember, MI-5 is made by the BBC which means that the political correctness will forbid them targeting any protected group. It is the reason they tend to target the Americans and conservative groups.
shareI don't think there were any 'protected groups' in Spooks. Just about every national, ethnic, religious and political group or movement became baddie of the week at one time or another.
I think they might - just - have left the Women's Institute alone ... :)
"I think they might - just - have left the Women's Institute alone ... :)"
Too funny. :)
So far the best statement.
Also, people forget that many of MI5's own turned out to be traitors.
Jessica Rabbit
"I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."
Absolute BBC / PC bashing rubbish, bordering on lie.
Nothing more to say.
I see nothing wrong with it... I mean there are a lot of cases in American tv and film where Americans make fun of the British.
shareIn a defense of a large portion of my countrymen (American) and some of Hollywood we:
1. Never liked George Bush
2. Do show on numerous occasions in our movies as Americans being the bad guys
Although they may have not been the majority, 24 had numerous American bad guys
Die Hard 4 had American terrorists, Enemy of the State with Will Smith, The
Jason Bourne saga etc.
Sure we may have more foreigners as bad guys, but thats just human nature...its easier to recognize a foreign threat than a domestic one
Spooks/MI5 is no different, even if they do show a lot of internal (British) threats.
Plus, even though UK and USA are friends, there will always be competition, especially within the intel services.
The thing you have to realise about the British is that we don't particularly like anyone. We're not even fond of each other.
shareThis show is more anti-anyone who isn't in Section D than anti-American.
When you hear Wu, outta the blue, your family's from Shaolin.
The most anti-American thing about this show was Sarah Caulfield's accent. That was utterly cringeworthy.
shareThe casting of British actors to ham it up as Hollywood baddies is totally irrelevent to the point the OP was making. Most modern US espoinage dramas, Britain is just another European power that gets a passing reference for passing on some intelligence. They don't need James Bond to come to their rescue.
I would take issue with his analysis though and argue that Spooks is portraying a post cold war world of 'frenemies'. All countries have an agenda which may conflict with British interests but nevertheless Harry is cordiale with his opposite numbers in the US, Russia, Israel and France intelligence agencies. But even Le Carre used to touch on double dealing among allies in the Cold War so it is not new ground.
The department is also in conflict with rival British agencies so the US shouldn't feel too badly done by.
I think Hollywood uses Alan Rickman, Sean Bean and Sir Anthony Hopkins because we love them. They're cool.
We're gonna need a bigger boat.
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