MovieChat Forums > Cold Mountain (2003) Discussion > It made Union soldiers look horrible

It made Union soldiers look horrible


I understand that a film about the Civil War being told from the Confederate perspective would not be very kind to Northern troops. But the one scene that I thought was unnecessarily cruel was when Union troops stormed into Natalie Portman's house and callously put her infant child in danger. The Union Army being portrayed in that manner got me pretty upset. Moreover, not every victorious group of soldiers goes around raping the first beautiful women they find. Sometimes all they really want is just food- and then they move on. All in all, this scene bugged me. Otherwise, this was a great film.

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In every war, there is cruelty and culpability on both sides. That is the nature and horror of war.

That scene should bother anyone, because things like this happen in nearly every war. It isn't just the soldiers who suffer, the citizens and the innocent also suffer.

People, and Hollywood especially, tend to glorify or tone down the horrors of war to make it more palatable for the general audience. Some of the most horrifying films such as "Platoon", "Black Hawk Down," "Casualties of War" and others hold virtually nothing back; and it is usually these films that leave the most poignant mark on the psyche.

It's true that I never read responses.

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The movie does not depict "every victorious group of soldiers" going around raping women. It depicts one. I'd recommend reading the book. The book does not vilify the Union or glorify the Confederacy. In my opinion, neither does the movie, but it's more apparent in the book. The book is about the best and worst aspects of human nature in general. The sides of Union and Confederacy are completely irrelevant. Human nature...how people behave as individuals, and as part of a mass, are the only important concerns in the novel's representation of people in time of war. The book includes atrocities perpetrated on both sides of the Mason-Dixon.

Let us also remember that from the perspective of the mountain people of North Carolina, poor people accustomed to relying on their own hard work and resourcefulness, most of them not slaveowners, the Union was an invading army. Right and wrong, just or unjust didn't enter the equation. It wasn't a war of ethics for southern people in this social strata, but a war of survival. Since our principal players fall into this category, the Union army naturally and rightly comes across as menacing and destructive.

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Well analyzed and digested ClassicMovieholic if I may say so. My thoughts exactly. Cudos!



"The problem with Socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money"..Margaret Thatcher

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It also showed the Confedrate Home Guard as being awful.
And, in truth, the Union Army committed a lot of atrocities in the Civil War. It wasn't until I moved to the South and began learning local history of The War that I understood why the South bore a grudge against the North for so long.
All this kind of thing happened in the South during the Revolutionary War, also, but in the form of terrible atrocities Royalists and Patriots who were neighbors committed against each other.

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To the OP, clearly you are not from The South. Any Southerner that has strong family ties, has grown to hear the stories of The War and the reconstruction era. Sometimes, depending on age, these stories are only a generation or so removed. It is said that reconstruction ended around 1880, however, down here we know it lasted all the way until the World Wars. The victor gets to determine how the story gets told, but their is far more to it than slavery. We, in The South, didn't just "view" them as an invading army, they were invaders and raiders of our country. The South had the right to secede, but that right was not reconized by Lincoln and the rest of the Federal government. When you see the photos of what was here, how it was and how it should still be, when you see the things that should have remained in the family but was burned down...Both sides had soilders, the usa had those that fought for money and politics, The CSA had those that fought for their homeland. Of all the ememy nations that the us has gone to war with, none of them were threated as poorly as The South, The Confederacy or her people.

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In general, I agree with your sentiments, but...

"Of all the ememy nations that the us has gone to war with, none of them were threated as poorly as The South, The Confederacy or her people."

...I think the Indian Nations might have something to say about that.

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Fair enough. That has a level of truth that can not be argued.

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According to the Supreme Court, ex post facto, secession is illegal. The plantation class hijacked a region of the country, filled their heads full of nonsense and caused the death of over 600K Americans to hold onto their "peculiar institution" which enriched a small group of people at the expense of most of Southern society- imparting backwardness, economic stagnation and privation to what could have been the wealthy agricultural heartland of this nation. And, YES, the war WAS about slavery despite protestations about "states' rights" and "tariffs."

The Northern armies (dirty little secret: along with 100K Southern Unionists who would not suffer treason) put this right. It's a shame there are still people like you who think like this. But America saw off your sort before and we can do it again.

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You're an ignorant idiot.

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And I think being nuked twice or the firebombing of cities qualifies as "poor treatment" far outstripping Sherman's troops burning barns and getting their rocks off on the way to Savannah...

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But you're not doing anybody any favors by perpetuating such a black and white view of history. Atrocities are committed on both sides of wars. As somebody who cited the nuking of Japanese cities and the firebombing's of Germany, surely you can understand that atrocious acts are sometimes necessary evils in time of war, but are still atrocities, and still evils. Sherman's march (and the human toll it took), the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the firebombing of German cities...these were horrific acts that ultimately saved more lives than they took by preventing war from being prolonged, but are they any less horrific? Certainly not for the people who were there. History is not a comic book with moral absolutes, heroes who are pure good, villains who are pure evil. There are moral nuances to Southern slavery, Islamic terrorism, even Naziism that cannot possibly be understood by simplifying things into the clumsy but convenient terms of good guys and bad guys. The priority of a student of history should always be to seek out human realities, and truth free of bias...not to try to find moral justification, or categorize things based on modern ethical standards.

It is at least an oversimplification to say the the Civil war was about slavery. Many Southern people (confederates, not unionists) including members of the Lee family advocated a gradual abolition that would eventually phase out the morally problematic and archaic slave system without ruining the South's economy. Foreign powers, the British Empire most notable among them, were capable of sympathizing with the South economically, while favoring the Union morally. Britain, despite being vehemently antislavery, came close to entering the war on behalf of the Confederacy, before Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation made British Support impossible from a public relations standpoint. Lincoln deliberately turned the war from an economic into a moral war (a stroke of PR genius), and it is more palatable to modern sensibilities to continue to view it as such, than to grapple with uncomfortable moral ambiguities.

I believe that by "poor treatment" Sheepdog was not so much referring to acts committed during the war, but to the decades long policy of subjecting the South to exploitation and needless humiliation after the war. German and Japanese reconstruction were complete by the 1980s (though it must be acknowledged that a form of occupation still exists to this day, with US bases prevalent in both nations). As Sheepdog pointed out, the South was still scraping by in abject poverty until the Second World War, and even today, parts of the South are still feeling the effects of the Civl War. Despite the romanticized image presented famously by "Gone With The Wind" and other pop culture artifacts, there is still definitely a pervasive sense that not just Confederates, but "Southerners" are the bad guys. Movies like "Django Unchained" and "The Wild Wild West" are evidence of the sort of ahistorical anti-Southern propaganda that is still tainting the American public's perception of the Civil War. Any history in which there are "good guys" and "bad guys" is sloppy history in my opinion...at least where war is concerned.

"getting their rocks off on the way to Savannah..."

Civilian deaths are a tragic, but inevitable consequence of war. Rape will never be anything but a sadistic, vindictive act with no conceivable positive outcome. Millions of lives were ultimately saved by ruthless civilian bombings that forced the axis to end WWII before a land invasion in Asia, and further bombings of European and Asian cities became necessary. But were any lives saved because as many as 2 million women in Berlin were raped by soviet soldiers (10% of whom died as a result)? Sherman's march to the sea devastated the South to such an extent that no more of her son's could be sacrificed to a pointless cause. But did the Civil War end any sooner because some union soldiers "got their rocks off."

...That is one moral absolute I believe history does have room for.

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It is often the case that people touting the "don't take a black and white view of history" have sinister, ulterior motives. I can acknowledge shades of gray- but the poster to whom I was responding was openly supporting a treasonous, retrograde and aristocratic form of government completely at odds with the best traditions of this country.

I would argue that the firebombing of Dresden WAS less horrific than Auschwitz. And the nuking of 2 cities WAS less horrific than the rape of Nanking or a Japanese "Co-Prosperity Sphere" that intended to supplant European imperialism with something far worse.

"but to the decades long policy of subjecting the South to exploitation and needless humiliation after the war. German and Japanese reconstruction were complete by the 1980s (though it must be acknowledged that a form of occupation still exists to this day, with US bases prevalent in both nations). As Sheepdog pointed out, the South was still scraping by in abject poverty until the Second World War, and even today, parts of the South are still feeling the effects of the Civl War. Despite the romanticized image presented famously by "Gone With The Wind" and other pop culture artifacts, there is still definitely a pervasive sense that not just Confederates, but "Southerners" are the bad guys. Movies like "Django Unchained" and "The Wild Wild West" are evidence of the sort of ahistorical anti-Southern propaganda that is still tainting the American public's perception of the Civil War."

You've gone off the rails here. The South was only "exploited" because of their own intransigence, their unwillingness to join the modern world and to keep intact their racially-based caste system. Yes, if you defy federal laws and try to have your "victory" over Yankees by keeping black people second class citizens then, yes, the government [with a great deal of Southern representation] will "humiliate" you and not let you do those terrible things. Accept the verdict of the battlefield as an honorable people would.

Southerners being portrayed as "evil" in the Civil War is rarer than you imagine. Look at "Gone With the Wind," "Birth of a Nation," "Gettysburg" and "Gods and Generals." "Django Unchained" is one of the few Hollywood releases that actually deals with slavery directly. But it is schlocky and exploitative, like "Inglorious Basterds"- it is not nor does it intend to be history. You cannot seriously tell me that the crap that is "The Wild Wild West" is intended as serious historical commentary. What do we yankees have on this score? "Glory" and "Lincoln."

Hmmmm: 620K dead Americans, one of our best presidents assassinated, nearly cleaving this country in 2 so you can continue to own people whilst appealing for foreign assistance [the BRITISH of all countries while the revolution was still in living memory] VS. scorched earth and a handful of rapes of Southern women.....yeah, I gotta think the former is worse.

The rape issue I am in complete agreement with you: Execute soldiers who are caught doing it and discourage such an appalling practice. Scorched earth: It was necessary to bring home the wages of Southern aggression to the people who began it. It's primitive thinking but it's accurate: You make war so terrible on those responsible for starting it that you break their will to continue prosecuting it. It's more destructive and violent in the short-term but in the long term it will save lives [think Grant's "Cold Harbor" and "Wilderness" campaigns].

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The best traditions of a country born in a treasonous rebellion that by the grace of history has been remembered as a revolution (thanks to our victory). I was citing those films as examples of a general mood of anti Southern sentiment that pervades many aspects of life in this country. I was not suggesting that they are historical texts (though I believe any pop-cultural artifact is a historical text to some extent), but the unfortunate truth is, there are and always will be those who believe in such nonsense simply because it is in a historic setting. Similar to people who believe that the Da Vinci Code is historical fact, and not just entertaining pop fiction.

"The BRITISH of all countries"

...the first in human rights at that time. They had abolished slavery empire wide in 1834, and abolished it in England long before that (without having to start a war).

Yes, the ravages of the Civil War pale in comparison to the worldwide and centuries old ravages of slavery (ravages that began long before the American Plantation system, and continued long after). I think that a gradual and peaceful transition that would phase out slavery by the end of the century (history indicates that this would have been the reality even had there been no civil war) would have been preferable.

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ClassicMovieholic, thank you for the support. Stirling00 is a sophist. Quick to question anything the current government tells us, but equally quick to believe that everything the government has done in the past is of moral and justified motives. People like him/her will debate that the "War on Terror" is all about oil, but The Civil War is all about slavery. Media and politicians of today all have their own motives but the ones of years past only speak truth. Capitalism is evil because the it is the government forcing an economy that is only good for some of the people, but this was never the case in history, everything a modern history textbook says is pure gospel. Never mind that these books were written and published by other sophist and followers of modern academia.

We will never convince these people of anything with logic and sound facts.

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No problem. I don't want to personally point fingers at Stirling00, who certainly has a right to his or her opinions...but I do think the very fact people still have such black and white, antagonistic views of both the antebellum and modern South is a symptom of just how real, and successful this century and a half of propaganda has been. No, I do not advocate slavery or racism in any form, but neither can I advocate a view of history so strongly weighted in the South's disfavor. I often encounter shockingly anti-southern sentiments in my dealings on the internet and, indeed in life, from people who seem to see Southern life and history (as it pertains to both black and white people) as some kind of nightmarish political cartoon...which again, very much mirrors the sort of thing one might expect to see in a Tarantino movie or the exploitation films that inspire him. This sort of view is detached from any kind of historical or social reality, and does a grave injustice to both the privileged and disenfranchised peoples of the south by robbing them of any human identity, and instead turning them into symbols in a grotesque game of fact manipulation.

Returning the post to the original topic at hand, "Cold Mountain" is refreshing because it neither villainizes nor glamourizes the South. Rather it does something which even well intentioned portrayals rarely do successfully...It humanizes. The original poster has missed the mark by perceiving that Union Soldiers are bad guys in this film. In fact there are no good guys or bad guys. According to the logic of this story, individuals on either side can be good, or bad, or both. Sides in general are irrelevant, and whether whole societies are right or wrong is meaningless. This is the real Civil War, as experienced by individuals. The human tole devoid of political bias. If anybody missed this in the movie, I suggest they read the book.

A handful of other films have done a commendable job with this. Stirling00 rightly mentioned "Gettysburg." I would add John Ford's "The Horse Soldiers" William Wyler's "Friendly Persuasion" and "Shenandoah" with James Stewart to a list of films that give a more balanced portrayal.

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I'm honestly surprised anyone would bother replying to what I considered a definitive "end all, be all" post but....nevertheless, here we are...

"Stirling00 is a sophist. Quick to question anything the current government tells us, but equally quick to believe that everything the government has done in the past is of moral and justified motives."

------>You don't know what a sophist is. And do you think it's BAD to question things the govt tells us? And I think we have enough perspective and scholarship on The Civil War to define its origins and causes. Many, many historians believe that slavery and its proposed expansion westwards was a "root cause." I agree with them. All the other things the South said the war was about would've not existed were it not for their "peculiar institution." I know you think you're being circumspect, original and open-minded in your thinking but when you sound like an ex-Confederate pol circa 1873, perhaps you should check yourself.

People like him/her will debate that the "War on Terror" is all about oil, but The Civil War is all about slavery. Media and politicians of today all have their own motives but the ones of years past only speak truth.

------>I don't think the WOT is about oil. Afghanistan hasn't any and our greatest ally in the MidEast also has NO oil! Afghanistan is about the people who attacked us on 9/11 and Iraq was unfinished business from the 90s- Iraq abrogated the terms of the '91 ceasefire. A war against them [even if 9/11 never happened] was entirely justified.

"Capitalism is evil because the it is the government forcing an economy that is only good for some of the people, but this was never the case in history, everything a modern history textbook says is pure gospel.

-------->Wow. Where to begin? I'm pretty right wing. I LOVE capitalism and the GOP. Although I refrain from using the term "Capitalism" because it is a Marxist term. I call it "Free[ish] Markets." Loved Bush, Obama.......not so much.

"Never mind that these books were written and published by other sophist and followers of modern academia."

------->I, too, share a scorn for the academic and media classes [who have conspired to produce possibly the worst president in our history]. However, no sophistry is needed here and most of the high-profile academics specializing in The Civil War tend to represent the South sympathetically [think Gary Gallagher at UVA]. Ken Burns is the exception that proves the rule.

We will never convince these people of anything with logic and sound facts.

------>180 degrees from the truth. "Logic" and "sound facts" are the ONLY things that will convince me. The problem is you lack both.

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"The best traditions of a country born in a treasonous rebellion that by the grace of history has been remembered as a revolution (thanks to our victory)."

--------->The American colonies were not granted representation in Parliament. That's what started the revolution. The Southern states had Congressmen and Senators in DC and Southerners dominated the Supreme Court. Was the passage of The Fugitive Slave Law and the Dred Scot decision not enough to convince you of a Southern voice in national government? I'm jumping a few steps ahead and thinking you're comparing the Confederacy to the original 13 colonies. That is a poor analogy.

"'The BRITISH of all countries'

...the first in human rights at that time. They had abolished slavery empire wide in 1834, and abolished it in England long before that (without having to start a war)."

------->First in human rights? I agree. Perhaps a gesture to emulate your erstwhile allies: Emancipate your slaves and THEN fire on Sumter? However, it still was a colonial power that raided, attacked and burned US cities less than 50 years prior.

Yes, the ravages of the Civil War pale in comparison to the worldwide and centuries old ravages of slavery (ravages that began long before the American Plantation system, and continued long after). I think that a gradual and peaceful transition that would phase out slavery by the end of the century (history indicates that this would have been the reality even had there been no civil war) would have been preferable.

------->The gradual and peaceful transition to a non-slaveowning society was possible in England because A] their climate did not allow for hugely profitable plantations compared to those in the Southern US and Caribbean. B] They did not have millions of people prepared to defy the central government and plunge the country into a 4 year, protracted slaughter for the protection of their ersatz "rights."

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I'm jumping a few steps ahead and thinking you're comparing the Confederacy to the original 13 colonies.


I would avoid drawing that comparison, but it does highlight what I was really getting at, which is that treason is in the eye of the beholder, and where history is concerned, is usually defined by the victors. It is a revolution if the rebellious faction succeeds, an act of treason if they fail. Even with those unstable parameters as a guide, the lines aren't always so clear. British history books, for example, will call the sepoy uprising of 1857 "The Great Mutiny" but modern Indian accounts will call it "The First War of Independence." And if you look into what the Alamo was really about, you'll never think of Davy Crocket the same way again.

The gradual and peaceful transition to a non-slaveowning society was possible in England because A] their climate did not allow for hugely profitable plantations compared to those in the Southern US and Caribbean.


Eventual emancipation was, in fact, possible in England for the reasons you mentioned, but also in their plantation based colonies overseas, albeit decades later. The gradual phasing out of slavery in the Americas was a historical fact. It was an overstatement of mine to say that eventual and and peaceful emancipation would surely have been preferable. Ultimately, we may be better off as a result of our Civil war. The American South may have an economy more similar to the West Indies nations or South and Central America today...or still worse, may have been plagued by a caste system more like that in South Africa. Racial hatred may have been still more violent, and the economy may have been still more ruined than was already the case without the support of the North (such as it was). But it is still a useful exercise to try to conceive of an America in which there had been no civil war. And the clarity of hindsight does not minimize the very real sufferings that the people of the South, rich and poor, slave and free, black and white underwent in the dark days of our history. As I have written in my other posts, I love this movie because it is true to those individual struggles. The South is not the Romantic Idyl of a chivalrous aristocracy torn down by the ravages of war, but the fight of each individual who lived and died there. The real South is not Scarlett O'Hara flitting around Twelve Oaks in her green dress...it is, however, Scarlett O'Hara digging for roots in the scorched earth.

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>>>...these were horrific acts that ultimately saved more lives than they took by preventing war from being prolonged, but are they any less horrific?
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I will take issue with that. Nagasaki and Hiroshima were done 'just for fun' (to test the bombs)

There was no need as Japan was about to surrender, and HAD ALREADY surrendered when Nagasaki was hit;

We had a naval blockade around Japan and they were starving, out of supplies, food, ammunition, raw materials etc.

It was delusional, self justification to say that the Bomb "saved lives"....another month, and Japan would have been wiped out by famine, with few or no weapons, breakdown of C&C and had already come to terms that they had lost.

Surrender plans were being drawn up when Hiroshima was hit. Japan had surrendered by the time Nagasaki was hit;

Pure racism and atrocity-just to test a new invention.

And remember the US Government has many times allowed the testing of various dangerous items on an ignorant American people-its what they do...

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The Rothschilds were the key to understanding why Lincoln after playing nice for 2 years, had to make a move and up the violence to end the war. They were trying to destroy America and thankfully the Czar came to the rescue. It forced the Roths to finance the US or lose the market to the greenbacks. The separation was not going to happen like Rothschild wanted.

Put it this way: War is atrocity. It will be ugly. The Civil War was quite possibly the first full blown "hard war" war. The south had many towns under totalitarian control. Many appy towns threw flowers on Sherman's troops as liberating heroes. A bunch of apologists on this board for the south. A real shame. In many ways they were foreigners.

The southern planters were never really into the "United States" anyway. They never wanted to fight the revolutionary war. It was a plan of northern ambition.

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If you were upset the directors/ actors did their jobs well. Wars bring out the most far reaching emotions available to the human experience. Overt cruelty? Civil War is an oxymoron.

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You should probably do some research about the Civil War. I mean--Sherman's March is enough to upset me--and it's unfortunately true.

Cold Mountain is anti-war. That's the over-riding theme in this movie, so they weren't going to glorify either side--rather, they were trying to portray that both sides are capable of atrocities and that war only has the power to destroy. It IS an accurate portrayal.

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Union war crimes happened regularly during the Civil War/War of Northern Aggression. Maybe you had also forgot the part in real history when Atlanta was burned to the ground and how the Union soldiers rampaged and pillaged their way from Atlanta to Savannah burning every house in sight and raping and killing civilians. They also indiscriminately bombarded Atlanta, Richmond, and other Southern cities with cannon fire killing many civilians. In contrast nothing like this happened under the Confederates during the Gettysburg campaign.

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As a black man. I have every reason to not like the south.

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That's fair, of course, but neither do you have much reason to like the North (historically speaking).

The emancipation was a wonderful, long term side affect of Union victory. But In the immediate, everyday reality of the War black people had almost as much reason to fear the Union army as white people, if not more so. Thousands of civilians died in the South as a result of starvation, malnutrition, disease or exposure. While I do not agree with some here who classify these as "Northern war crimes" (few of these deaths were directly inflicted by the Union army), it is nonetheless clear that the consequences of Northern invasion aggravated these factors. But the point is not so much that this is something the North did to the South (blame games are pretty historically useless), but that black and white people across the south both suffered these effects. Black and white noncombatants died side by side in famines and epidemics, as well as occasionally as a result of violence or military maneuvers. On some small farms and plantations, black and white also worked side by side, banding together in the darkest days for their mutual survival. An empty stomach doesn't particularly care which side is which.

More directly, while the sexual violence against slaves by Southern masters in antebellum times is infamous, few have acknowledged that rapes during the Civil War itself were overwhelmingly perpetrated against women of color by Union soldiers. White Southern women were also sexually assaulted, but enslaved and free women of color were considered an easy object of aggression. In some cases, Northern "troops and ruffians" even forced white mistresses to watch as they raped slave women...in essence a sexual terror tactic. (it should be noted that the Union Army didn't officially condone such acts). Please see the article below:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/25/rape-and-justice-in-th e-civil-war/

Furthermore, some of the worst racial atrocities in American history occurred in the New York City draft riots of 1863, in the heart of the North, in the middle of the Civil War. Rioting Northern city dwellers (largely immigrants of Irish decent) looted and burned the homes and businesses of free black citizens, beating, torturing, and lynching any black people they came across. The cherry on top of the cake was when the rioters set fire to an orphanage for black children (fortunately the children had been evacuated).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots

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[deleted]

While I don't agree with everything you said I can agree that General Lee did his best to keep his troops in line during the Gettysburg Campaign. An exception is some of his troops taking free blacks from Pennsylvania and sending them down south to be put into slavery.

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THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY also showed the Union troops being as barbaric as we said the Confederates were.

In the USA calling Russia, Iran, Iraq, Vietnam etc. the "bad' guys-its always a case of the pot calling the kettle black

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